Ep. 322 - Takeaways from BioCentury Grand Rounds Europe

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<v Jeff Cranmer>You are listening to a special edition Of the BioCentury this week podcast.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>recorded live on stage in Cambridge at the third BioCentury Grand Rounds conference.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>And first to take place in Europe, grand Rounds Europe.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Like Grand Rounds, U.S. seeks to engage thought leaders at the academia industry interface.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Now, here's your host, BioCentury's, Stephen Hansen.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Welcome to a special edition of the BioCentury This week podcast.

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<v Stephen Hansen>I'm Stephen Hansen, director of Biopharma Intelligence here at BioCentury's, and we are coming to you from the ancient university town of Cambridge in the U.K. The original Cambridge as it were,  uh, where we are wrapping up our first inaugural Grand Rounds Europe conference.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Joining me to discuss key takeaways from the event are James Sabry, EVP, and Chief Business Officer of BioMarin Pharmaceutical,  Michelle Jones, chief Operating Officer at Astex Pharmaceuticals.

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<v Stephen Hansen>And then from the BioCentury side we have our illustrious vp.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Used to

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<v Simone Fishburn>be

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<v Stephen Hansen>esteemed.

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<v Stephen Hansen>I used to be esteemed.

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<v Stephen Hansen>You used to be esteemed.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Well, you're still esteemed, but you're also illustrious.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Right.

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<v Stephen Hansen>And editor in chief, Simone Fishburn.

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<v Stephen Hansen>And then our talented executive editor and head of intelligence and research, Selina Koch.

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<v Stephen Hansen>so thank you.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Uh, first off to our sponsors again for a tremendous conference over the past few days, believe that they achieved sort of the unthinkable, in terms of having two days of pretty.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Great weather, uh, which I did not think was gonna happen having this in Cambridge in the fall.

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<v Stephen Hansen>I'm so glad.

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<v Stephen Hansen>'cause

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<v Simone Fishburn>I thought you were gonna say two days of pretty good panels, which is totally thinkable.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Oh, they were more than just, they were more than just good.

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<v Stephen Hansen>No, but.

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<v Stephen Hansen>The weather also seems to cooperate better than expected.

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<v Stephen Hansen>So, but you're right.

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<v Stephen Hansen>We also have had two and a half days of panel discussions, uh, meetings, fireside chats about the future of translational medicine and in Europe's role in it.

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<v Stephen Hansen>So I think we should, we should dive right in.

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<v Stephen Hansen>So, Simone, as normal, I'm gonna start with you.

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<v Stephen Hansen>I would like you to give me, uh, you know, maybe one or two of your key takeaways from this week.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Right.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So I, I want to start with just sort of stipulating to the fact that Grand Rounds is really a very geeky, sciencey conference, bringing together academic innovators together with thought leaders from Venture World Pharma.

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<v Simone Fishburn>biotech and, and more.

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<v Simone Fishburn>and so we are going to get into some of the key scientific takeaways, but it's also about an ecosystem here in the U.K.

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<v Simone Fishburn>where, you know, biotech has been growing and growing and then this conference came on the heels of some.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Sort of big blows to the ecosystem in terms of Merck deciding to, withdraw on a$1 billion, facility that it was, building in London and followed by Lily and AstraZeneca saying they might pull back on their presence.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And so I wanna start with just a little bit of discussion about the, the general environment here.

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<v Simone Fishburn>We had two, sessions, that were really fantastic.

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<v Simone Fishburn>We had a debate with the Steve Bates, who is the CEO of the BIA, which is the UK's version of BIO, and soon to be.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Some very big, the next director or some big, big poobah in, um, office of Life Sciences in the government.

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<v Simone Fishburn>I

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<v Stephen Hansen>think Big Poobah is the official

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<v Simone Fishburn>I think Big, Poobah, I think is the official title.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And then Jérôme Van Biervliet from uh, VIB.

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<v Simone Fishburn>They did a great debate on whether this is the UK's.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Moment for biotech.

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<v Simone Fishburn>I'm gonna come to a couple of those things in a minute.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And then we had a great fireside chat moderated by Kate Bingham who as people will remember, led the Vaccine Task Force is a, a premier investor, uh, managing director at, uh, SV Life Sciences and, uh, Patrick Valance, Lord Patrick Valance to you, who is the Minister for Life Sciences.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And I, I just wanna make a couple of comments, about my take home.

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<v Simone Fishburn>On the vibe here.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So there's no question that these were like kind of big body blows, right?

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<v Simone Fishburn>And that definitely, there was a need to respond and I think what we heard and, you know, tune into BioCentury's and read it.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Next week we'll be writing more about this, but the minister definitely gave the message that.

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<v Simone Fishburn>He has heard and he plans to convey to the government that he's heard, the urgency, the importance of resolving.

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<v Simone Fishburn>I think what most people agree, the real problem is around drug pricing.

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<v Simone Fishburn>You know, it may be dressed up as a few other things here and there, and Merck may have its own issues and we can talk about that, but there is a very big need to address that amount of spend in the NHS.

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<v Simone Fishburn>We'll, elaborate, as I said on that.

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<v Simone Fishburn>In another place.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Um, but I, I also wanted to, make the point that he and he talking with Kate and Steve Jerome.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And just the vibe here.

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<v Simone Fishburn>It may have been a body blow, but there's still tremendous enthusiasm.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Nobody is walking around talking about the death of U.K.

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<v Simone Fishburn>biotech, you know, grossly overstated as some would say, prematurely announced.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So I think there's just, you know, a feeling that that's gotta be resolved.

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<v Simone Fishburn>But at the innovation level and at the energy level, There's still a lot of value here and people creating value and people believing that they're creating value and a lot of thirst also for the kind of, input and advice that they can get from people like you, James from pharma or an ex pharma BD people and from investors.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And so I feel like there's still a very healthy buzz here.

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<v Simone Fishburn>At the same time as there being a kind of like, yikes, what's happening?

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<v James Sabry>Yeah.

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<v James Sabry>One thing that, that I appreciated was that although there was, uh, some joyful banter on France versus the U.K. um, and France did not come out well, and I'm sure the U.K.

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<v James Sabry>would not come out well if this was being held in France.

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<v James Sabry>But, uh, besides that banter, in the end, I think it was very clear that our industry does really well.

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<v James Sabry>Only when there are wide open borders for talent flow, for capital flow, for global collaborations, and that kind of came out as an underscore I think throughout the whole conference.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Yeah, I mean, Michelle, you're, you're sort of our local, local hero here, sort of maybe the local hero effect.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Could you talk a little bit about sort of what, what your perspective was from the takeaway from the week?

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<v Michelle Jones>Yeah.

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<v Michelle Jones>No, I think it's really great that BioCentury Grand Rounds has come to Cambridge, has come to Europe, but in particular come to Cambridge.

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<v Michelle Jones>I really, uh, think the Cambridge ecosystem has really been grateful for the opportunity to showcase everything that's going on in the, in this environment.

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<v Michelle Jones>It's a thriving.

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<v Michelle Jones>Community of academics, VCs, pharma execs, and I think, there has been a lot of energy around in the room.

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<v Michelle Jones>I've seen the buzz out in the corridors and that's been really great to see.

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<v Michelle Jones>A lot of partnering meetings, a lot of companies presenting.

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<v Michelle Jones>There's a real burgeoning life science, in particular biotech community here in Cambridge and Astex, who's been here for t over 25 years now.

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<v Michelle Jones>Is really proud to be part of that and to contribute to that.

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<v Michelle Jones>And we have a number of interactions with research institutes across the Cambridge ecosystem.

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<v Michelle Jones>We are part of the Milner who are one of your sponsors here.

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<v Michelle Jones>We have academic relationships with a number of the academics who were, Over here today, David Klenerman, Matthew Garnett at the Sanger are all academics that we work with at, at Astex and, and some of the companies that have, they've been spinning out as well, like Mosaic and Base Rx.

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<v Michelle Jones>I'm also minded of the panel before about, uh, quantum computing, you know, looking to the future as well.

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<v Michelle Jones>Astex has a. Also a relationship with a, a biotech company here in Cambridge called Riverlane who've been at the forefront of quantum computing.

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<v Michelle Jones>So I think there's a lot of great stuff going on in Cambridge, and I think we really appreciate that we've had an opportunity to, to showcase that to the wider BioCentury's audience.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Actually, can I just follow that with one point, because one of the things that we have done with, BioCentury Grand Rounds and is part of the kind of what, what I call the thesis of it is, is also to bring innovators and investors from everywhere else.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And so that's been a very significant part of the audience.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So on the one hand we've showcased that, but on the other hand, it's been great to see people from Glasgow and Edinburgh and other parts of Europe and innovators from everywhere.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And that really goes back to your point there.

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<v Simone Fishburn>It is about creating, you know, we've always believed that by a century, those cross border connections are what makes this tick.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So, you know, I, I think that's been, that's been quite fun to see.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And as I said, even against the backdrop of that sort of very, kind of what felt like alarming news, you, you don't see sort of.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Long faces or too much, except a few people from Merck had pretty long faces.

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<v Michelle Jones>I, I was just gonna say, I mean, and there's only lots of positivity on the panels that have all been presented here.

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<v Michelle Jones>Obviously the ones that were focused on the economics, and some of those big, you know, body blows as you said to the U.K. life science industry.

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<v Michelle Jones>But overall, I think, I sense that there was enormous positivity and innovation and science are really at the forefront of that.

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<v Michelle Jones>And I think the, the political pressures will be what they will be, but I think as long as everybody keeps focusing on the science, that that's really primary importance.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Speaking of sort of the AI and the things there, I mean, Simone, I think you, you also wanted to talk maybe a bit about some of the, what we saw from the AI and like chemical space and sort of some of the mapping and things.

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<v Stephen Hansen>what was your takeaway from one of those?

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<v Stephen Hansen>I think one of those panels as well.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Do you wanna go first to Selina?

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<v Simone Fishburn>That was linked.

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<v Selina Koch>So this is a geeky conference as Simone described, and so I thought maybe we could talk about science.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Yeah, let's do it.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Let's it, what, what do you wanna talk about?

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<v Stephen Hansen>So, um,

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<v Selina Koch>let's see.

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<v Selina Koch>Well, we have two keynote, we had two keynotes, which I thought were really great.

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<v Selina Koch>Um, so I'll start there.

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<v Selina Koch>One was Steve Jackson.

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<v Selina Koch>Um, well known for his work on DNA damage repair pathways and for work that led to Lynparza.

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<v Selina Koch>I think the thing that struck me most about that one.

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<v Selina Koch>was just the utility of that pathway outside of cancer.

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<v Selina Koch>So these, um, DNA damage repair mutations are driving certain ataxia.

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<v Selina Koch>I think a neuroscience is a promising area and even,   in repeat expansion diseases, you can get these somatic mutations of relearning in Huntington's disease that develop over the course of one's lifetime and increase the length of a repeat.

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<v Selina Koch>And lead to symptom onset when there's a certain length of that repeat.

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<v Selina Koch>And so that's a whole area that I think is not, it's new and it's really promising and hasn't been super tapped yet.

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<v Selina Koch>So that's one.

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<v Selina Koch>The other one was, wait, lemme just get, can I just interrupt

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<v Simone Fishburn>that?

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<v Simone Fishburn>'cause one of the things that I thought was really interesting, and we will be looking at this, is the fact that.

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<v Simone Fishburn>You know, you had Lynparza and there was this expectation that they would uncover a whole lot of like, pairs of genes that would be, you know, DDR, you know, pairs.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And that hasn't yet happened.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And so there's a sort of question at the same time as it's expanding into other disease areas.

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<v Simone Fishburn>There's a question as to there is where hasn't it even gone further than it has in a cancer?

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<v Stephen Hansen>Yeah.

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<v Selina Koch>Re synthetic, uh, rescue.

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<v Selina Koch>Do you wanna

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<v Stephen Hansen>Well, I, I was, I was actually gonna give, one fun fact that I learned from, uh, during Steve Jackson's fun, or like, maybe more mind blowing, at least the word, what I thought of.

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<v Stephen Hansen>But he, you know, he noted during his lecture that, um, that the DNA in every one of our cells is damaged in some way more than a hundred thousand times every day, and then subsequently repaired.

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<v Stephen Hansen>And I'm still.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Kind of trying to wrap my mind around that, that that occurrence.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Um, so that, that really stuck with me.

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<v Simone Fishburn>yeah.

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<v Simone Fishburn>You know, my, my pi, when I did my, um, postdoc used to have a, what in England we call a badge, and the Americans call a button saying, I know it looks like I'm doing nothing, but at a cellular level, I'm really very busy.

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<v Stephen Hansen>That's very good.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Well, maybe maybe on that note, on being active, we will take a break.

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<v Stephen Hansen>We will come back and then we can talk more science when we return.

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<v Stephen Hansen>So hang with us.

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<v Alanna Farro>BioCentury This Week is brought to you by The 12th China Healthcare Summit in Shanghai.

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<v Stephen Hansen>And we are back, live here from Churchill College at the University of Cambridge.

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<v Stephen Hansen>before we dive back into the geeky science that I know Selina is dying to tell you more about, first, uh, we have started, from our first few live podcasts we've started something of a tradition, of encouraging our guests.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Even sometimes our audience members, if they wanna join in.

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<v Stephen Hansen>to wear some colorful or extravagant, uh, socks to our show.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Maybe I'll start off, if you don't mind.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Uh, I can show the audience what I have.

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<v Stephen Hansen>So I have, Cambridge socks on my right side showing the, um, punting in the cam, river.

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<v Stephen Hansen>But, having been someone who went to Oxford, I also have, uh, an Oxford sock on the other side showing the SPIs of the city.

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<v Stephen Hansen>So kind of sitting on the fence, you know, trying to be polite.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Are you

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<v Simone Fishburn>right?

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<v Simone Fishburn>Are you right footed or left?

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<v Simone Fishburn>Footed

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<v Michelle Jones>Oxford socks allowed.

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<v Michelle Jones>That's why it's on the left.

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<v Michelle Jones>Moja, I, I think we might have to evict you.

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<v Stephen Hansen>I'm trying, I'm trying to live in both camps, so, um, but maybe, maybe, uh, we can, go around here and have everyone tell me what their socks are, even though, uh, it's.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Simone shamelessly forgot to bring her socks.

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<v Stephen Hansen>I just, I do want to point that out explicitly.

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<v Stephen Hansen>but maybe James, you can tell me what, uh, what you've got going with your, with your socks.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Yeah.

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<v Stephen Hansen>I'm

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<v James Sabry>wearing my Canadian moose socks.

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<v James Sabry>Uh, an underappreciated animal, especially in Europe, but in Canada it's very much appreciated.

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<v James Sabry>I'm Canadian.

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<v James Sabry>Much bigger than

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<v Stephen Hansen>you expect in real life actually.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Yeah.

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<v James Sabry>Muir Lake.

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<v James Sabry>Exactly.

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<v James Sabry>But, uh, the Canadian flag's on there just to fly the excellent, the national colors.

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<v James Sabry>Excellent.

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<v James Sabry>Uh,

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<v Stephen Hansen>Selina.

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<v Selina Koch>Science, like magic, but real.

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<v Stephen Hansen>That's good.

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<v Stephen Hansen>That's good.

00:13:50.361 --> 00:13:53.365
<v Stephen Hansen>And, uh, Michelle, what, uh, what, what do you got going on with your sock game?

00:13:53.432 --> 00:14:10.115
<v Michelle Jones>Yeah, so, um, in jarring blue against my black and white monochrome outfits, um, I went for jazzy, structure of DNA Helix, which obviously was famously, Discovered in Cambridge, but also ably supported by the x-ray structures of Rosalind Franklin.

00:14:10.115 --> 00:14:14.552
<v Michelle Jones>And those of you who know familiar with Astex structure is at the center of everything we do.

00:14:14.552 --> 00:14:14.886
<v Michelle Jones>So, uh,

00:14:15.453 --> 00:14:15.754
<v Stephen Hansen>perfect.

00:14:15.754 --> 00:14:17.556
<v Michelle Jones>They, they felt like a good choice, very appropriate.

00:14:17.556 --> 00:14:18.957
<v Simone Fishburn>I'd just like to defend myself here.

00:14:18.990 --> 00:14:19.390
<v Simone Fishburn>Okay.

00:14:19.390 --> 00:14:19.758
<v Stephen Hansen>You can try.

00:14:19.924 --> 00:14:21.326
<v Simone Fishburn>I did forget about the socks.

00:14:21.326 --> 00:14:21.927
<v Simone Fishburn>It's true.

00:14:22.260 --> 00:14:27.866
<v Simone Fishburn>But I thought I'd show the nails, especially as I realized that they're actually in Cambridge Blue, so they go.

00:14:28.167 --> 00:14:29.869
<v Simone Fishburn>You have light blue, light blue nails.

00:14:29.902 --> 00:14:30.235
<v Simone Fishburn>Yeah, that's good.

00:14:30.535 --> 00:14:30.802
<v Stephen Hansen>That's good.

00:14:30.903 --> 00:14:31.202
<v Stephen Hansen>Okay.

00:14:31.269 --> 00:14:31.636
<v Stephen Hansen>All right.

00:14:31.803 --> 00:14:32.770
<v Stephen Hansen>we'll let you out anyways.

00:14:32.770 --> 00:14:35.441
<v Stephen Hansen>let's return to our geeky, science discussion.

00:14:35.707 --> 00:14:39.378
<v Stephen Hansen>Selina, I think there, there were sort of two sort of keynotes that you had wanted to touch on.

00:14:39.745 --> 00:14:42.413
<v Stephen Hansen>I'll let you talk about the first one and then I abruptly cut you off.

00:14:42.413 --> 00:14:44.917
<v Stephen Hansen>Why don't we, uh, carry on with the, with the second one?

00:14:44.950 --> 00:14:45.717
<v Stephen Hansen>No problem at

00:14:45.717 --> 00:14:45.918
<v Selina Koch>all.

00:14:46.451 --> 00:14:53.392
<v Selina Koch>The second one was Sarah Teichmann who showcased, uh, an example of the power of spatial transcriptomics.

00:14:54.025 --> 00:15:04.602
<v Selina Koch>In resolving the cellular, you know, at the single cell level, the complexity of an organ, in this case, the thymus and its molecular milieu, and how it changes over the course of a lifetime.

00:15:05.203 --> 00:15:11.277
<v Selina Koch>And, relating that to, the  hallmarks of aging and to disease phenotypes.

00:15:11.277 --> 00:15:15.313
<v Selina Koch>And I think James might have some thoughts on the aging panel.

00:15:15.648 --> 00:15:18.350
<v James Sabry>uh, the one thing that I found very interesting about that aging panel was.

00:15:19.051 --> 00:15:28.192
<v James Sabry>the question or hypothesis that aging could be a driver of disease and therefore if you actually, interfere with the aging process itself, you may be able to have an effect of the disease.

00:15:28.494 --> 00:15:37.802
<v James Sabry>But in some ways, the, the real question in front of all of those scientists is, is aging simply correlated with the disease and therefore going after the biology of the disease itself?

00:15:38.303 --> 00:15:51.783
<v James Sabry>Rather than aging is actually a more fruitful way to develop effective therapeutics with the caveat that there may be certain diseases that truly are driven by aging, but most diseases tend to show a phenotype where they're more common the older you are.

00:15:52.951 --> 00:15:53.318
<v Simone Fishburn>explain.

00:15:53.318 --> 00:15:58.423
<v Simone Fishburn>So I think what those people in that field are saying is they're more common the older you are.

00:15:58.456 --> 00:16:02.360
<v Simone Fishburn>Therefore, aging is a factor in those diseases.

00:16:02.394 --> 00:16:06.532
<v Selina Koch>I think one way to think about it is somebody says, I'm studying APOE4 in the context of Alzheimer's.

00:16:06.532 --> 00:16:07.533
<v Selina Koch>'Cause it's a risk factor.

00:16:07.533 --> 00:16:08.634
<v Selina Koch>It's correlated.

00:16:09.067 --> 00:16:11.102
<v Selina Koch>Nobody says, well, you shouldn't study that.

00:16:11.336 --> 00:16:13.339
<v Selina Koch>They're like, that's obviously something worth investigating.

00:16:13.504 --> 00:16:19.912
<v Selina Koch>So if age is an even bigger like risk factor, it seems like it's worth the hypothesis.

00:16:19.912 --> 00:16:26.918
<v Selina Koch>But I think the problem is that it's just a h Like APOE4 is a very discreet entity, whereas agents is very complex thing that's not well defined.

00:16:26.918 --> 00:16:27.952
<v Selina Koch>And how do you even go about it?

00:16:27.952 --> 00:16:28.253
<v Selina Koch>Yeah, yeah,

00:16:28.253 --> 00:16:28.787
<v James Sabry>exactly.

00:16:28.787 --> 00:16:33.558
<v James Sabry>And the idea of doing a clinical trial to slow down aging is a bit of a daunting thought.

00:16:33.558 --> 00:16:33.725
<v James Sabry>Right.

00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:35.193
<v Simone Fishburn>And and I think that.

00:16:35.427 --> 00:16:40.399
<v Simone Fishburn>I think they did stipulate to the idea that clinical trials on it is quite far off right.

00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:43.369
<v Simone Fishburn>But understanding the mechanisms of it.

00:16:43.369 --> 00:16:54.947
<v Simone Fishburn>So if you're saying that we know that, I don't know, you know, skin elasticity is one that they talked about or various other things of features that you uncover those pathways and maybe they reveal disease processes to you.

00:16:54.980 --> 00:16:55.581
<v Simone Fishburn>For sure.

00:16:55.681 --> 00:16:56.148
<v James Sabry>For sure.

00:16:56.215 --> 00:16:59.951
<v James Sabry>But something like APOE4 may be important for Alzheimer's disease regardless of age.

00:17:00.619 --> 00:17:00.852
<v Simone Fishburn>Right.

00:17:00.852 --> 00:17:01.320
<v Simone Fishburn>I think that one

00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:02.488
<v Selina Koch>is, yeah, it was just a guess.

00:17:03.022 --> 00:17:10.194
<v Simone Fishburn>I think what was interesting, like one thing I noticed that they actually drew a distinction between the sort of term aging and longevity, right?

00:17:10.194 --> 00:17:16.167
<v Simone Fishburn>So that, you know, longevity being the goal, being to extend your life, which is you pointed out for clinical trials, is very problematic.

00:17:16.801 --> 00:17:17.068
<v James Sabry>Correct.

00:17:17.702 --> 00:17:20.571
<v Stephen Hansen>Well, James, I know you had some other thoughts from a few of the other panels.

00:17:20.605 --> 00:17:23.342
<v Stephen Hansen>I think you maybe sat in on the, uh, the obesity panel.

00:17:23.409 --> 00:17:23.608
<v Stephen Hansen>Yeah.

00:17:23.608 --> 00:17:28.446
<v James Sabry>Stephen O'Rahilly from Cambridge gave a re some really interesting thoughts towards the end of the panel on obesity, which was.

00:17:28.747 --> 00:17:31.049
<v James Sabry>You know, obviously very relevant to what's going on right now.

00:17:31.450 --> 00:17:35.721
<v James Sabry>the one thing I liked particularly was that he started to reframe how we think about some of these diseases.

00:17:35.721 --> 00:17:38.656
<v James Sabry>He referred to obesity as a neurologic disease.

00:17:38.990 --> 00:17:51.269
<v James Sabry>Because of the mechanism of action of the incretins being in the nervous system, particularly brainstem, et cetera, which is really interesting because, you know, it, challenges us to think about the disease from its fundamental pathophysiology.

00:17:51.470 --> 00:17:58.277
<v James Sabry>The other thing he said, which I think is solely true, is that the skeletal muscle system is not simply a contractile organ, but a metabolic organ.

00:17:58.443 --> 00:18:07.486
<v James Sabry>This is probably also true of bone and other organs that we have that we think of in structural terms, but they have this big metabolic component that could be harnessed for new therapies.

00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:12.223
<v Simone Fishburn>I wrote down his quote was like, obesity is not a fat cell disease.

00:18:12.257 --> 00:18:13.659
<v Simone Fishburn>It's a brain disease.

00:18:14.093 --> 00:18:27.905
<v Simone Fishburn>and in a way that sort of taps back into what you were saying, that I think more and more we are sort of seeing diseases redefined or technology boundaries redefined beyond where we've sort of classically pigeonholed them.

00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:39.284
<v Selina Koch>The other thing I really loved about that talk is his idea of,   like the, uh, thermostat mechanism, like there's a homeostatic mechanism that sets your weight in a certain range and whenever you perturb it, it wants to kind of come back there.

00:18:39.550 --> 00:18:44.088
<v Selina Koch>So if you can unravel the biology of homeostasis, maybe you have a way into

00:18:44.655 --> 00:18:49.661
<v James Sabry>that said point I mean, similar to things like calcium level in the blood or, or body temperature,

00:18:49.994 --> 00:18:53.132
<v Stephen Hansen>it's, that is I think, kind of the holy grail of in obesity treatment.

00:18:53.132 --> 00:18:54.266
<v Stephen Hansen>I think it's, it's still.

00:18:54.566 --> 00:19:02.807
<v Stephen Hansen>You know, I think there's still some debate around obviously where that biology revolves and, and, but it's, it is definitely the dream is like, can you somehow adjust homeostasis

00:19:02.840 --> 00:19:07.078
<v Simone Fishburn>and, and sorry, going back to the dream and your parallel, he drew the parallel right.

00:19:07.078 --> 00:19:08.513
<v Simone Fishburn>With cardiovascular disease that.

00:19:09.381 --> 00:19:19.991
<v Simone Fishburn>In however many years, much as people just take statins or whatever now to reduce, to reduce hypertension in order to offset all these other morbidities that come with high blood pressure.

00:19:20.224 --> 00:19:24.363
<v Simone Fishburn>So it will be with obesity medications in, I dunno, James, how many years?

00:19:24.563 --> 00:19:24.695
<v James Sabry>Yeah.

00:19:24.695 --> 00:19:25.830
<v James Sabry>What, whatever number of years.

00:19:25.830 --> 00:19:29.902
<v James Sabry>But it's, it, the idea of, of being able to take something in a preventive way.

00:19:30.201 --> 00:19:40.444
<v James Sabry>That's inexpensive and hence widely available like a statin is, I think it, it is ogres, well for the eventual large population health of societies.

00:19:40.578 --> 00:19:40.778
<v Michelle Jones>Yeah.

00:19:40.778 --> 00:19:47.219
<v Michelle Jones>And I think to do that though, it needs to be more accessible in particular around, being orally available.

00:19:47.486 --> 00:19:52.191
<v Michelle Jones>And that really leads onto the small molecule panels that we had that, you know, I think there's lots of.

00:19:52.523 --> 00:19:53.892
<v Michelle Jones>lots of work that needs to be done there.

00:19:53.892 --> 00:19:56.627
<v Michelle Jones>If you want to turn it into preventative editing, it's gotta be horrible.

00:19:56.627 --> 00:19:59.397
<v Michelle Jones>It's gotta be much easier to get that patient compliance.

00:20:00.298 --> 00:20:14.479
<v Simone Fishburn>Yeah, I mean actually for me, one of the highlights was the small molecule panel and they also, in that context, discussed a little bit about what's the definition of a small molecule, you know, even extended to is a peptide, small molecule, and so on.

00:20:14.846 --> 00:20:19.984
<v Simone Fishburn>One of the things that stood out to me in that panel was, Lee Cronin from Glasgow.

00:20:20.051 --> 00:20:24.690
<v Simone Fishburn>He was, he was very interesting and this was when the conversation went to ai.

00:20:24.690 --> 00:20:35.400
<v Simone Fishburn>And obviously that's been a big, you know, AI and genomics being big, Strengths, let's say in, in the U.K. and this was AI in the context of small molecule creation.

00:20:35.601 --> 00:20:38.369
<v Simone Fishburn>And what was very interesting was that he was saying It's not only.

00:20:39.070 --> 00:20:40.838
<v Simone Fishburn>Coming up with that final molecule.

00:20:40.972 --> 00:20:44.142
<v Simone Fishburn>It's also about the synthetic pathway to getting there.

00:20:44.476 --> 00:20:56.721
<v Simone Fishburn>And so he drew this analogy by saying like, if you go to Google Maps, it might tell you that Route A is shorter, but Route B, which is more circuitous, might actually be faster and better.

00:20:56.954 --> 00:20:58.757
<v Simone Fishburn>And so it can be that AI is.

00:20:59.124 --> 00:21:02.193
<v Simone Fishburn>Also helping U.S. optimize the synthetic root.

00:21:02.193 --> 00:21:03.729
<v Simone Fishburn>He's actually in favor of complexity.

00:21:03.729 --> 00:21:08.000
<v Simone Fishburn>'cause I think that protects you, uh, from an IP point of view or I dunno what you'll have thoughts about that.

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:08.165
<v Simone Fishburn>His

00:21:08.165 --> 00:21:14.573
<v James Sabry>comments on, on building ultimately complex molecules I think was very interesting because and you said there really are two limitations.

00:21:14.573 --> 00:21:24.449
<v James Sabry>One is modeling out the complex molecule and its binding site onto a moving protein that has salvation spheres around it, but also the synthetic roots, as you point out, are also challenging.

00:21:24.682 --> 00:21:31.890
<v James Sabry>But the more we can unleash complex molecules, into the pharmacopia, the better because of their specificity and effectiveness.

00:21:31.890 --> 00:21:31.990
<v James Sabry>Yes,

00:21:32.356 --> 00:21:34.425
<v Selina Koch>I would say it's not just about the ip, it's the specificity.

00:21:34.492 --> 00:21:34.625
<v Selina Koch>Yeah.

00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:46.872
<v Michelle Jones>I think the ability potentially explore unchartered chemistry space as well as getting, using ai, not just to get there quicker, but to get to somewhere different quicker, I think is, is really powerful and a really promising opportunity.

00:21:48.073 --> 00:21:53.144
<v Stephen Hansen>So from all of this, I mean, is the basic takeaway that small molecules rock, is that basically the, I think they were,

00:21:53.211 --> 00:22:01.886
<v Simone Fishburn>they, they were sort of really making the case, Hey listen, I know you got all these other sexy new modalities, but small molecules are still where money at kind of thing.

00:22:02.153 --> 00:22:08.626
<v Stephen Hansen>I, I do actually want to ask Simone a question do, was it on purpose that we had the biologics panel and the small molecules panel like immediately after each other?

00:22:08.626 --> 00:22:15.366
<v Stephen Hansen>'cause like, I almost thought it was sort of like a west side, kind of like Jets versus Sharks kind of thing, where they were like, who's you got the better modality,

00:22:15.366 --> 00:22:16.367
<v James Sabry>U.K. versus France?

00:22:16.835 --> 00:22:16.968
<v Stephen Hansen>Yeah.

00:22:18.703 --> 00:22:21.772
<v Simone Fishburn>Well, we hadn't thought about it quite as antagonistically.

00:22:21.772 --> 00:22:24.308
<v Simone Fishburn>We thought about it in the collaboration.

00:22:24.308 --> 00:22:25.109
<v Stephen Hansen>True, true, uh,

00:22:25.109 --> 00:22:26.144
<v Simone Fishburn>you know, sense.

00:22:26.211 --> 00:22:30.182
<v Simone Fishburn>Um, maybe U.K. Belgium, um, as to carry on a thread.

00:22:30.182 --> 00:22:35.653
<v Simone Fishburn>So yeah, it wasn't a coincidence, but we had not really pitted it as needing to defend your, your turf.

00:22:35.686 --> 00:22:35.987
<v Stephen Hansen>Fair enough.

00:22:36.153 --> 00:22:42.326
<v James Sabry>And in a similar way that we talked about, you know, global collaborations geographically in the end, really effective medicines rock.

00:22:42.693 --> 00:22:42.961
<v Stephen Hansen>Yes.

00:22:43.394 --> 00:22:43.961
<v Stephen Hansen>Good point, James.

00:22:43.961 --> 00:22:44.462
<v Stephen Hansen>Good point James.

00:22:44.796 --> 00:22:56.907
<v Stephen Hansen>So, uh, you know, we obviously lots of other great panels and sessions here, including, we had a fireside chat, where Simone, sat down with AstraZeneca's, Shaun Grady James, do you mind just sharing maybe a thought or two that you had about, uh, about that, that talk?

00:22:57.008 --> 00:23:03.781
<v James Sabry>It, it was so great to see Shaun, I've known him for years in his BD capacity, but now he's taken a job as chairman of the U.K. for AstraZeneca.

00:23:03.781 --> 00:23:13.759
<v James Sabry>And he dropped a zillion names and because he's such a good guy, he then had to apologize to the audience about hobnobbing with the royals and bumping up against Kings and Macron and all that.

00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:17.662
<v James Sabry>But, um, but then he made a really interesting comment was how.

00:23:17.962 --> 00:23:20.231
<v James Sabry>AstraZeneca as it reformed its pipeline.

00:23:20.231 --> 00:23:30.674
<v James Sabry>Not only was it acquisitive, did many collaborations to bring in new molecules into the company, but it also had to get rid of some of the molecules that were at the company in order to make room for those.

00:23:30.674 --> 00:23:38.349
<v James Sabry>And that's a really important point I think, for every large company, most medium-sized companies and even small companies to take into consideration.

00:23:39.116 --> 00:23:40.317
<v Michelle Jones>I mean, I, I can chip in.

00:23:40.317 --> 00:23:43.020
<v Michelle Jones>I mean, I think,  you know, one of those themes is collaboration.

00:23:43.020 --> 00:23:55.299
<v Michelle Jones>And, you know, I think there's been a lot of, talk about collaborations here at these sessions today and yesterday, and that, you know, Astex has always done a lot of collaborations with pharma companies, with biotech companies, with academia, and it's a really great way of.

00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:58.603
<v Michelle Jones>Bringing new science and innovation into companies.

00:23:58.603 --> 00:24:09.480
<v Michelle Jones>And I think, you know, Sean talked about that and I think it's important for all, companies to really be looking out there to explore the best innovations and securing the best science to take forward.

00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:13.884
<v Michelle Jones>And it's not about, you know, there's not, not invented him mentality can be very strong.

00:24:13.884 --> 00:24:17.189
<v Michelle Jones>And, and I think that's something that all institutes need to be really careful of.

00:24:18.088 --> 00:24:22.727
<v Simone Fishburn>taking the collaboration thread and, and going back to the,   To the sciencey bit.

00:24:22.993 --> 00:24:33.270
<v Simone Fishburn>you know, what we had was, we had the panel on biobanking that Selina moderated very well, and obviously genomics is a big part of Cambridge and the UK's strength.

00:24:33.771 --> 00:24:36.273
<v Simone Fishburn>There's a little bit of a common thread for me here as well.

00:24:36.474 --> 00:24:40.578
<v Simone Fishburn>We've talked about in the sort of same sense as the small molecule, like part of the.

00:24:41.112 --> 00:24:45.083
<v Simone Fishburn>Part of the status appears to be mapping this path ahead.

00:24:45.317 --> 00:24:52.757
<v Simone Fishburn>We sort of have a sense of what the technology can do, but now we understand that we have to, you know, lay down those Google Maps, as it were.

00:24:52.990 --> 00:25:10.976
<v Simone Fishburn>And, you know, there was a, a comment on the Biobank panel about creating risk prediction models and quantifying risk, and I felt that this is part of the journey by which I mean the U.K. Biobank is already delivering for, and you might have used it actually, James, you know, in your companies you might talk about that.

00:25:10.976 --> 00:25:11.343
<v Simone Fishburn>So it's already.

00:25:11.710 --> 00:25:26.423
<v Simone Fishburn>Delivering things, but we've got our future health as well and we have this sense that there are these data lakes and I think we are moving beyond the just constructing data lakes to starting to work out how to interrogate them and as I said, create those pathways.

00:25:26.423 --> 00:25:33.698
<v Simone Fishburn>And I'm hoping in ground rounds, and I dunno how many years we'll start to be talking more about the fruits of them and what are your thoughts about that?

00:25:34.665 --> 00:25:43.407
<v Selina Koch>So, the mantra of human biology and drug development has been, you know, said over and over at all of these conferences we've been going to for a decade.

00:25:43.807 --> 00:25:53.183
<v Selina Koch>I think the thing that struck me really, which I said on the panel, I'll just repeat it here, uh, is that, um, you have all these, you have the scale of the datas.

00:25:53.751 --> 00:25:59.691
<v Selina Koch>Really increasing right now you have the layers of the omics also scaling and becoming available.

00:25:59.857 --> 00:26:07.932
<v Selina Koch>You have much better tools for measuring these different kinds of analytes, and this is all happening at the same time that we're having this AI revolution.

00:26:08.165 --> 00:26:25.650
<v Selina Koch>So yeah, we may hopefully maybe app approaching some sort of a tipping point where actually the promise of human biology and drug development, which is to increase success rates in the clinic actually starts making a difference in like a, a larger scale, you know?

00:26:26.651 --> 00:26:35.259
<v James Sabry>I, I mean, I think there's a real opportunity for human genetics to not only inform the natural history of a disease, and that's been what many of these biobanks have been focused on.

00:26:35.626 --> 00:26:39.830
<v James Sabry>But even more importantly, and this was touched on in the panel, the treated history of a disease.

00:26:40.097 --> 00:26:50.240
<v James Sabry>'cause now that we have many therapies, thinking what are the genetic elements that would predict response, predict resistance, these kinds of things in over time in the treated history of the disease.

00:26:50.375 --> 00:26:51.776
<v James Sabry>There's some real opportunities there.

00:26:52.544 --> 00:26:53.044
<v Simone Fishburn>Yeah.

00:26:53.411 --> 00:26:53.811
<v Stephen Hansen>Wonderful.

00:26:53.811 --> 00:27:01.185
<v Stephen Hansen>Well, I, I, you know, I think just maybe one final thought before we, uh, before we wrap up here,  obviously I know James, you, you and Alex Schuth from Denali.

00:27:01.185 --> 00:27:04.288
<v Stephen Hansen>You guys had a very wonderful panel with also, a partner from PJT.

00:27:04.990 --> 00:27:06.023
<v Simone Fishburn>Moderated by me.

00:27:06.724 --> 00:27:07.392
<v Simone Fishburn>Is that what your pointing at me for

00:27:07.659 --> 00:27:10.028
<v Stephen Hansen>Moderated by Simone.

00:27:10.295 --> 00:27:10.662
<v Simone Fishburn>Okay.

00:27:10.729 --> 00:27:13.064
<v Stephen Hansen>I was actually hoping you might insert the name of the PJT partner.

00:27:13.565 --> 00:27:15.400
<v Stephen Hansen>Um, but I, I thought it was very interesting.

00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:20.971
<v Stephen Hansen>There were a couple quotes that I, that I did sort of jot down that I thought were, were quite fun and maybe, maybe a fun way to end on.

00:27:20.971 --> 00:27:32.116
<v Stephen Hansen>So, James, you had a comment, that, some, maybe more than some deals are pulled out of the toilets at dinner, uh, meetings, um, which I thought was sort of an important.

00:27:32.150 --> 00:27:36.488
<v Stephen Hansen>You know, reminder of the, of the personal connection and the trust that you have to build with prospective partners.

00:27:36.654 --> 00:27:36.887
<v James Sabry>Yeah.

00:27:36.887 --> 00:27:53.738
<v James Sabry>And until, until you actually get deep into business development, either on the buy side or the sell side, you think of it as a highly analytical process about valuations and negotiations, which, and that's a very important part of it, but there's this very human part of it, which is developing trust and a relationship with the company.

00:27:53.738 --> 00:27:54.338
<v James Sabry>And that can take.

00:27:54.538 --> 00:27:59.344
<v James Sabry>Months, years to do sometimes and dinners are, are, are one way to do that.

00:27:59.344 --> 00:28:04.848
<v James Sabry>I think a very effective way and a, a tool in the, uh, effective BD professionals bag.

00:28:05.049 --> 00:28:13.557
<v Michelle Jones>Yeah, and I, I think you also touched on the fact how important it is to have a champion in the, in the other organization and that really, you know, mirrors our experience as well.

00:28:13.557 --> 00:28:18.430
<v Michelle Jones>Having, having a champion on both sides of the deal is really important for the deal's success.

00:28:19.230 --> 00:28:30.307
<v Stephen Hansen>And, and then finally, one, one final quote from your panel, which I'm gonna be totally shameless about, um, Alex, uh, commenting on, you know, that if you want to know about your prospective partner, what should you do, Simone?

00:28:30.741 --> 00:28:32.343
<v Simone Fishburn>You should read BioCentury.

00:28:32.376 --> 00:28:32.943
<v Stephen Hansen>That's right.

00:28:32.943 --> 00:28:33.711
<v Stephen Hansen>That's what he said.

00:28:33.711 --> 00:28:34.679
<v Stephen Hansen>So, um.

00:28:35.145 --> 00:28:36.314
<v Stephen Hansen>On that.

00:28:36.647 --> 00:28:38.849
<v Stephen Hansen>I think we should, uh, we should bring this to an end.

00:28:39.284 --> 00:28:41.318
<v Stephen Hansen>thank you all for, joining U.S. today.

00:28:41.352 --> 00:28:46.924
<v Stephen Hansen>Uh, thank you to our live audience, for being here for the special edition of the BioCentury this week podcast.

00:28:47.459 --> 00:28:49.126
<v Stephen Hansen>thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in.

00:28:49.394 --> 00:28:57.769
<v Stephen Hansen>we will catch you next week, uh, wherever you get your podcasts, or in the case of our audience, uh, next year for Grand Rounds 2026 U.S. in June.

00:28:58.169 --> 00:29:05.609
<v Stephen Hansen>In Seattle, for Grand Rounds Europe next September in a as yet be disclosed location.

00:29:06.211 --> 00:29:09.547
<v Stephen Hansen>also hold on, the BioCentury This Week podcast.

00:29:09.547 --> 00:29:19.723
<v Stephen Hansen>We will be back on the road, uh, later this fall, November 19th in London for our third, biotech, CEO and investor reception during the London Life Sciences Week.

00:29:20.424 --> 00:29:22.894
<v Stephen Hansen>the exclusive gathering will have some live music.

00:29:23.661 --> 00:29:26.564
<v Stephen Hansen>where I am told that Simone will be singing.

00:29:27.832 --> 00:29:28.532
<v Stephen Hansen>Is that right, Simone?

00:29:28.532 --> 00:29:28.599
<v Stephen Hansen>No.

00:29:28.633 --> 00:29:29.200
<v Stephen Hansen>So not.

00:29:29.933 --> 00:29:30.501
<v Stephen Hansen>That's not right.

00:29:30.734 --> 00:29:31.035
<v Stephen Hansen>Okay.

00:29:31.169 --> 00:29:32.703
<v Stephen Hansen>Maybe that's still under negotiation.

00:29:32.703 --> 00:29:33.438
<v Stephen Hansen>We'll figure that out.

00:29:33.438 --> 00:29:34.772
<v Stephen Hansen>I charge a lot more for that.

00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:44.715
<v Stephen Hansen>I think we should be anyways, um, in any case, we'll also have a live recording of the BioCentury's This Week podcast, great networking opportunities.

00:29:45.048 --> 00:29:53.458
<v Stephen Hansen>Uh, so join U.S. the BIA, Pioneer, Precision BioSearch and other distinguished guests for that exclusive event in November, to request an invite.

00:29:53.525 --> 00:29:56.795
<v Stephen Hansen>Please email conferences@BioCentury.com.

00:29:56.861 --> 00:29:58.128
<v Stephen Hansen>thank you again for joining us.

00:29:58.163 --> 00:29:59.530
<v Stephen Hansen>and, uh, we will see you next week.

00:29:59.763 --> 00:30:00.097
<v Stephen Hansen>Thank you.

00:30:03.667 --> 00:30:08.105
<v Jeff Cranmer>Kendall Square Orchestra provides the music for BioCentury this week.

00:30:08.439 --> 00:30:23.621
<v Jeff Cranmer>The group connects science and technology professionals and other members of the greater Boston community to collaborate, innovate, and inspire through music, while supporting causes related to healthcare and education.