OmniChat - unlocking the incredible power of social media messaging automation with Larry Kim

 It has to start somewhere. It has to start sometime. What better place than here? What better time than now?
 Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast.
 Hey guys, what's up? This is Ryan Alford. Welcome to another edition of the Radcast.
 We've got a rad founder today. Mobile Monkey, you may have heard of it. I've heard of it because I'm
 trying to get my damn Instagram messaging figured out. He's also the founder of Word Stream. Larry
 Kim, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having a great speaker.
 Cool man. Well, I mean, I'm not going to turn this into I know you've got people that can help me
 through customer service, but I've got to get my my Instagram automation. I got approved.
 I'm going through it. We're going to get to some of the functions of Mobile Monkey, but is it going
 to be a lifesaver for me? Am I going to love it as much as I think I will?
 I think that Instagram is an incredible platform for getting your content in front of people,
 but I think it's an incredibly terrible platform for turning that engagement into like leads
 or traffic to your website. What's so interesting about this new Instagram
 direct messaging automation that you're talking about here is that it's for the first time in
 over a decade. Instagram is allowing creators to tap into all that exposure that they're providing
 you and being able to turn that into leads or traffic to your to your businesses to grow them.
 So from that perspective, other than Instagram ads, there really isn't any other
 way to do that. This is still technically an organic thing like this direct messaging automation
 that's not a paid thing. So I think it is a game changer. I think like you can start weaving
 calls to action like in your in the content that you're producing to be more deliberate to
 asking users to interact with you through the DMs and then in the DM automations and you can then
 drive into the links, capture emails, do whatever the heck you want to do there.
 Yeah, it's been the biggest painful for me. I don't an agency and I'm in the B2B space,
 but most of my personal branding has grown through LinkedIn the last seven years.
 And it's been a blessing and a curse because it's not an easy transition exactly as you said
 into leads for B2B just by simply the interface and everything else. So I think it's going to be
 a game changer and I want to come back to that. I do want to I do want to give for our audience
 at least. And I know you do a lot with Clubhouse. I've seen you there obviously and really
 appreciate you coming on to your busy man, but and do a lot of podcasts and people have probably heard
 of you or heard of Little Monkey. I definitely have been on the platform for a while and seeing
 its praises to all of our clients and otherwise, but maybe give everyone that you know,
 Cliffs Notes version of kind of your background and everything you've done. I know you've done a lot.
 Sure, I'm a tech entrepreneur. I build marketing software companies. So my first company
 was Word Stream and that is actually the world's largest paper click advertising software company
 in the world managing over a billion dollars vets and for tens of thousands of customers global.
 And I had the great adventure of starting that from literally nothing and growing that to hundreds
 of hundreds and hundreds of employees and eventually selling it. Like it did over you know,
 $70 million, $75 million in revenue of the year before last and sold that business back in 2018
 to Gnett. That's like the USA Today Company for $150 million and that was awesome.
 Yes, please sign that check. Did you cash? Did you cash it or did you just put it in the bank?
 The big checks are only for lottery. Okay, I think that they brought you a big one, you know, like
 yeah, Larry Kim Lucky's man in the world or smartest man in the world, $150 million just for you,
 just for playing the Word Stream game. Yeah.
 You know, and when you do something like that, it's like, look, part of your wondering if that's
 was luck. Like you just said, Lucky's man or smartest man is what you said. And so kind of
 was a dare to myself. I started another company to see if it was possible to, you know, replicate
 the success. The company is called Moel Monkey. It's in the messaging space. So it's, it's,
 you know, messaging tools for OmniChat, OmniChat meaning like, well, you know how like there's
 all these different messaging platforms like Facebook Messenger, SMS, Instagram, WhatsApp,
 website chat, all these different platforms that marketers used to, you know, communicate with
 the customers. And there's new ones popping up every day like, I don't know, TikTok or, or even
 clubhouse is coming up with their own direct messaging API. So it's just, the idea here is
 Moel Monkey is just allowing you to access the messages from all of those messaging sources
 in one inbox, okay? And then providing automations to automatically answer and prioritize
 the different messages to come into your inbox. So it's just like a kind of a platform for messaging
 and the thing that I think you're interested in is just this new support for, you know, Instagram
 messaging and automation, which is kind of the new kid on the block because, you know, they've
 been around for, Instagram's been around for over a decade and they've, they're in, they're
 direct messaging capabilities is really crap. It sucks. Well, just going back to what you said
 earlier, they're, you were talking about how you do LinkedIn and it's valuable for business,
 from business perspective. But can you imagine doing LinkedIn if they didn't have like the
 in-mails and the ability to reach out to people in an easy way, you know, how crappy that would be
 and how difficult it would be to actually, you know, do business on like on the platform,
 like as a, as a business operator or an entrepreneur, it would be just like a vanity network with,
 well, it would be Instagram basically. For business people who, you know, wouldn't be able to,
 you know, easily communicate and stuff like that. So it's just, you know, this is a really
 exciting new development for, for Instagram and I just think that, so the thing that people need
 to understand is this is not for, it's not changing that the Instagram interface that you use today.
 So the app experience that you have in terms of messaging will just be as crappy as it was before.
 Okay, so that nothing is changing there. But what is changing is that Instagram is allowing
 third-party tools developers like MobileMonkey, the ability to access those messages and to process
 them and to send on your behalf, you know, through a third-party tools platform like MobileMonkey.
 And so, you know, using that, we can now create automations just like we do for, you know,
 messenger or SMS or webchat, but on Instagram. So that's what's changing.
 A lot to unpack there. I want to at least for our audience because of the success you've had,
 you know, and I know we could devote the entire episode to this, but I do want to, you know,
 provide value, you know, to our audience around. You've, you've, you've scaled word stream to
 a gigantic company. You had 150 million cell to connect your building mobile monkey. I don't know how,
 if you can speak to any of its growth and things like that, but I'd love to just any of the
 pains, gains, suggestions of people out there scaling business and what has enabled you to,
 what seem, what seems as though one definitive success and what looks like another
 home run happening with MobileMonkey. I mean, the tips or ways to condense that into some
 suggestions or just even the pains of it, you know, I'd love to hear a little bit more about it.
 Oh, so building these businesses is like very rewarding in the end, but while you're in it,
 it's the most frustrating experiences of your life. Okay, and I think what's helped me a lot
 is this is perspective. So my perspective on this company building and entrepreneurship is that
 you're usually wrong. Okay, like, you know, most of the ideas and campaigns and initiatives that you,
 you bring to the table, you know, maybe one or two or three percent of them will will actually work
 and be successful. And, you know, 95, 96 and 7 percent of the time they'll go nowhere. Okay,
 and so you have to kind of view, you know, all your failed initiatives from that lens of like,
 well, it wasn't realistic to kind of believe that you're, it was going to be like a one in campaign
 and done sort of thing. It's like, you have to try out so many different things, you have to change
 so many different like angles and, you know, what are you building? How are you marketing it?
 You know, who are you selling it to? And, and, you know, the idea that you're going to be correct,
 you know, on any one of those things, you know, initially is, is like totally, very implausible.
 And that's how sometimes you get these kind of crazy success stories where, you know, they crash
 their car into a gold mine and they don't really realize how lucky they were.
 I feel like Twitter is one of those examples where they're like such crappy management,
 but they just crash the car into a gold mine and they don't realize how hard it is to come up with an
 idea like that. But, but so it's, it's that perspective. And then once you, once you have that
 perspective that, okay, well, most of the things aren't going to work and only a few things are
 actually going to work, well, then it kind of forces you to think a little differently.
 So, you have to be a little more skeptical about the time and effort that you're putting into
 different projects and initiatives knowing that it's likely not going to work, right? So,
 one of the challenges I find, one of the foibles of people who are less successful is that they
 over commit to futile endeavors. So, meaning like maybe they're engaging in some marketing tactic,
 which is, you know, it's not hurting the company, but it isn't really helping the company, okay?
 And they might continue to pursue that, you know, campaign. This is an example. They might
 continue to do that work, you know, regardless of whether or not it's making a meaningful impact
 on the underlying business. Do something. So, like, if you, if you have the perspective of being
 very suspicious of the value of the, you know, different company initiatives that you're
 bringing to fruition, then one of the side effects, the positive side effects is that I have
 a tendency to kill what I call the donkey projects, the projects that just suck up a lot of time
 and energy, and, you know, really don't move the ball forward at all. And conversely,
 it kind of focuses your attention on sort of the few initiatives that really do, you know,
 move the ball forward. If I'm thinking about my last business word stream, you know, there's really
 just one or two campaigns that really made a difference, like in terms of making the company,
 the company that it was, and the rest of the features and functions and marketing campaigns and
 sales campaigns and support campaigns that we did over a 10-year period, you know, it was just no.
 So, it's just being able to, you know, find the leverage, kill the donkeys,
 and the perspective that most of the stuff that you try is unlikely to be the winning idea.
 It makes a lot of sense, and I followed, you know, your marketing approaches this unicorn versus
 donkey, and I see you applying it to real-world life as well with your businesses. So, it seems to
 transcend not only campaigns, but also potentially broader things within the company if I'm hearing
 you correctly. Just take any company, okay, like, or anything, like your life, like, you know,
 it's a lot of like every minute it's the same, you know, like in terms of time, but certain moments,
 are much more valuable and impactful than other moments, you know, it's the same thing with the
 companies, you know, like a company like Amazon, they're really just known for, you know, three or four
 bets, you know, like crime and an AWS and, you know, the Kindle, like, there's a few really
 killer unicorns that they discovered, and, and, you know, the rest is sort of the marketplace,
 the seller marketplace, and the rest is sort of, yeah, it's just good.
 I think they detour quickly off of those. It seems, you know, behind the scenes, maybe,
 exactly. So, I think I feel like they're practicing this, this kind of mentality of, you know,
 trying a lot of interesting ideas, but failing and, you know, finding the leveraged ideas.
 Let me ask you this. I've been curious. I grew up, I've been in the ad game for 20 years.
 I worked in Manhattan, large accounts for Eisen, at the NFL, like huge accounts. Now I,
 I we work with medium, small to medium businesses for the most part, but I kind of grew up in this
 brand era, big brands, branding. And, you know, I think of you, and I know you don't market
 yourself this. I'm not going to say that you are, but I think of you as a performance marketer in
 some way, or a, you know, more, you know, with all your testing and multiple variables. You're a
 true digital marketer, you know, like you're a scientist, you know, in a lot of ways. At least,
 that's my, what I see from you and your content and reading and all those things.
 And I do, and I always want to ask people like you, how you feel about branding, you know,
 building brand versus what is driving a sale today? ROI, baby. ROI. ROI. You know, like, how do you,
 do you discern those things? Is branding just a waste of time to you? Like over time activity?
 I've always curious when I talk to someone that's so, you know, down the path of,
 of science and metric and all those things. So, great question. I think my thinking on this has
 evolved tremendously since, you know, starting out. Today, in my opinion, is that there's nothing
 more important than your brand. Okay, that it is the, you know, it is a all-growth hacky, you know,
 ROI experiments is totally meaningless and all that really matters is, it is the brand.
 And this has become more and more important over the last five or six years.
 Because it used to be that those were two different worlds, so that there was a branding world
 in a digital marketing world and you could do well in one area without having a strong brand.
 You could do all in digital kind of growth marketing without a stronger. In fact, that was so
 exciting about it. Like, you could do, you know, this crappy SEO, tricks, and suddenly you'd outrank
 the New York Times and you'd be, you know, like, eHow was outranking? Like, you know, these really
 authoritative websites, even though no one even really knew who was the creator of this content
 on eHow. And, you know, it was like, that's SEO or, you know, email marketing, like, like,
 online advertising, all this stuff would go direct to concern and it didn't really matter
 what the brand was as long as you got there first. Yeah, it was sort of like, but I think what
 and why I'm thinking has changed is that all of those algorithms have now been fully
 augmented with machine learning, artificial intelligence, which now takes into consideration
 consumer preferences. So, I don't know, take search engine optimization, for example.
 Yeah, do you know what the most discriminating factor is in terms of whether or not someone is
 going to click on your link or not? Awareness, I don't know. The same, we did tests, like, like,
 we ran ad tests where, you know, to remark any audiences versus to vanilla audiences, like,
 you had not heard of your brand versus people who had heard of your brand. And people were
 disproportionately three, four, five times more likely to click on your links if they had heard of
 you before in the past, okay? So, that's a sign of brand affinity, you know, brand experience,
 brand awareness. So, I think what I'm trying to say is, it's very hard in 2021 to be running
 visual advertising campaigns or SEO campaigns or social media campaigns where the success
 of those campaigns are based on user engagement scores, like, click through rates,
 when the single greatest prognosticator of whether or not someone will click and engage with
 that content or that ad is if they've heard of you in the past. Do you see what I'm saying?
 Okay. So, it's like, if there's one thing that you could do that would instantaneously
 improve the performance of all of your digital marketing campaigns, whether it was
 SEO organic, you know, paid ad words, organic social, paid social, like, even email marketing,
 like, the visibility of your emails, like, you know, whether or not it gets displayed to you in
 your inbox or in your spam filter, that's all machine learning. It's like, it's whether or not
 you've engaged with that email in the past, okay? So, the single biggest thing that would help all
 your campaigns is to have a strong brand, because then that would dramatically increase people's
 propensity to bring engage with those campaigns, which would then be recognized by those
 visibility algorithms that dictate whether or not people will see the stuff that you're producing
 or not, which, you know, also has this additional interesting impact, which it then says, well,
 if Larry engaged with this thing, it's got to be good. So, show this content to all of Larry's
 friends. So, the only way you can do this, right? Like, the biggest brand, the biggest
 hack in 2021 for direct response marketing is to grow your brand. Are you following me here?
 Oh, I'm following you. If I had, and we're going to, we're going to be installing a soundboard,
 and I'm going to have, you probably didn't know much about Southern Baptist Church, but they have,
 amen. Hallelujah. The deacons in the choir, when the, the pastor we get in the pulpit say
 something really amazing, the deacons would go, how do you? From back, and as a long time brand
 marketer, nothing is more golden to my ears or to what I've been preaching for 20 years,
 and now having someone is an authority like yourself saying that the biggest growth hack
 in 2021 is branding goes down in the, the Radcast Hall of Fame. Whatever that's worth,
 it might be a t-shirt and a coffee mug, but you know, it's something.
 Yeah, I did this weird experiment the other day, where I artificially
 created a enormous influx of people searching for my brand. Okay, so like, I, I can't tell you how,
 but the experiment was to get real people, not bots, like many, many, many thousands of real people
 around the world to conduct searches for the word mobile monkey, which is my company. Yep.
 And, and that increased the kind of the volume of searches for that term. Okay.
 Okay, so here's the crazy part. That increased my SEO traffic for non-branded terms,
 okay, because it was a signal to Google that this must be a brand site, okay, because so many people
 are searching for that query, like that branded term. Okay, so, so this is, this must be the,
 this must be like the New York Times of the messaging space, as opposed to the e-how of the
 messaging space. You see what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. So it's just crazy little examples like that,
 where build your brand, build your direct response. I love it. Let's talk back now getting back
 into mobile monkey more. I know it's your baby, so you probably don't mind talking about it a little
 bit, but yeah, and through the lens of I feel like the messaging space, particularly SMS,
 definitely Instagram, which you guys are cracking the code on, is so underserved, underutilized,
 under magnified as the channel, the communication channel. I think people think of social media and
 the power of social media content, your engagement on content, but the, the holy grill of it all
 is the communication flow with customers and prospects and all those things that messaging,
 that communicate direct communication enables. Talk about how much or how underserved you feel
 like particularly SMS and other channels are. Well, first of all, I would estimate that
 only single digit, five, five, six, seven percent of companies even do any form of messaging in
 terms of a core marketing channel. So like if you compare messaging with email marketing, which is
 kind of the opposite end of the spectrum where everyone does it, or content marketing, which I feel
 is also pretty well well represented. Messaging on the other hand is still in its infancy,
 and you need to understand like why on earth would that be if the case, if people spend so much
 time on their mobile devices, so much time in WhatsApp and Instagram and Messenger, more so than
 social media. And I think the answer is because it's just a pain in the ass. Imagine if I told you
 guys, we need to have a website, a mobile website, and now we also have to have a kind of a messenger
 experience, an Instagram experience, a web chat experience, an SMS experience, blah, blah, blah,
 and so on and so on. So it's just so much fragmentation with these different channels. They're all
 very, very important. It's not like advertising on Bing, which is sort of like a check the box kind
 of thing. Like these are bonafide, like real messaging channels that are used by resilience,
 like literally billions of people. And it's just hard for marketers to cover all those
 bases. And so what I think MobileMonkey does, which is so interesting as a platform, is that it
 kind of disintermediates the underlying chat platform. So it just provides a messaging interface,
 and you can talk in an automated or manual way with your customers, whether it be on SMS or
 web chat or WhatsApp or Instagram or Facebook Messenger, and we keep adding more communication
 platforms, hopefully several more, like go for the next two quarters.
 Is, do you think we've reached this point? You know, the text message inbox was kind of like
 this sacred cow. I feel like five, 10 years ago. Like, you know, people just didn't want anyone
 touching it other than who you texted with. It was very different than the email inbox, right?
 It was very much more personal thought of. I feel like we've started to cross into this threshold,
 or maybe we've broken right through it, that there's more acceptance from consumers now
 with brands and with that communication approach through the text message inbox. Is that safe to say?
 I think overwhelmingly people would love to hear from the brands and individuals that they care
 about. And conversely, they really get these very emotional reactions to receiving content
 information from the brands and people they don't know or don't care about. Hence, going back to our
 original growth hack of the century of the decade, which is to build brand affinity.
 So, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that this is true, because
 you know, the open rates on these things are remarkably high, you know, in order of magnitude higher
 than email engagement. And so, if people really hated it so much,
 and you could say, well, maybe it's because we're tricking them, maybe it's because we're
 tricking them by triggering a notification on their phone and they need to know they've been
 trained to check those notifications. But then I would just say, well, then why are the subsequent
 engagement rates like click-through rate and read rate so high, like also in order of magnitude
 higher than email marketing. So, yeah, I think you're right. I think people are open to receiving
 messages on through texting or through various messaging platforms with the caveat that
 provided that it's from the businesses and individuals that people care about. And so,
 from that perspective, I would not be looking to develop a top funnel kind of awareness campaign
 on the backs of SMS or Instagram marketing. Like, this is more of a lower funnel kind of like
 conversion greasing type of communication channel that is substantially more effective than
 anything else over there. How are you building brand for mobile monkey? I know you said the test
 you did that you can't share exactly how you did it. But, you know, how do you think about branding
 or for Larry Kim for that matter? You know, I know you're getting more engaged. You know,
 it seems like with some of your DM tests and things like that, maybe that's just bad in nature
 of the business. But how do you go about thinking about building brand for mobile monkey?
 You really have to, there's direct response marketing and there's this other field of brand
 marketing. And it's just a different school. And it's on an area that I necessarily consider myself
 to be an expert in. But, you know, we do bring in people to examine sort of how we're treating the
 brand and what we want to know be known for. And then amplifying those messaging through
 through through display eye campaigns through social advertising campaigns, etc. Would you ever consider
 mass media or have you? That's next. I mean, that's really the the next logical space. You know,
 in reality, these digital marketing platforms have become way too expensive for top of the
 funnel brand advertising. Like, just if you know, these cost per clicks on Facebook ads or
 Instagram ads or Google ads, they go up by you know, double digit percentages every quarter. So
 so if if if this the if the economics of those ads haven't broken down for you yet,
 they will most certainly break down, you know, maybe I got quarter from now, you know,
 two quarter from now. It's just and and if you can't get it to work on, I guess what I'm saying is
 we've come full circle. It used to be that that I was so excited about these digital platforms
 because I could get my brand out there for nothing. And it's okay. And it was so much more effective
 and targeted, you know, than then sort of more traditional like, you know, radio or television or
 or even like pillboard or like just conventional, you know, non-digital advertising. And
 and that that's been the case for the larger part of a decade, but you know, over the last five,
 six years, these costs have gotten so bananas that you absolutely have to be considering,
 you know, these other radio and, you know, other types of of of of KVK.
 satellite radio, etc. to like rank her down is advertising on CNBC on on, you know,
 like like on Sirus XM radio like. So you absolutely have to be considering these because it's
 like the economics for for trying to create new brand affinity among people who aren't, who don't
 have pre-existing affinity with your brand through digital marketing is incredibly futile.
 Yes. I got two, two letters for you. P and R PR is the is the Holy Grail in 2021. I know you're
 doing some of that with your magazine writing other things coming on this podcast in a way.
 But I think that is the kind of I'm not ready to say that TV is coming back alive because it's
 changing so much, but connected TV and other sources, but I'll leave you with that.
 Even that's so interesting. So the way that word stream got on the map, okay, it was I think 2011
 or 2012, it was one PR campaign. Okay. Seriously, the way that word stream got on the map was one PR
 campaign. And that was around the time of the Facebook IPO in 2011. And you can Google this.
 Everyone was talking about it. The whole world was talking about the Facebook IPO. And I just
 published some data showing that, you know, these Facebook ads, they're kind of crappy. They were like
 like ads at the time. So it was like, they get your page. And I just compared sort of the return
 on investment for like ads versus like these other more powerful Google search ads that existed
 at the time. Okay. So it was kind of like a mad headhead matchup comparing, you know, these crappy
 Facebook ads, which have gotten a lot better with search ad technology at the time. And it just
 showed that Facebook was a joke. And that story, okay, I published it three days before the Facebook
 IPO. It got something like 11,000 press pickups. So like, you can search for this. It was on AFP.
 It was on Reuters. It was on CNN. I was on Fox Business. I was on NPR or BBC, like just talking about
 like, you know, how these ads aren't that great. And that generated a total of six million links
 from reputable sites to our website over the course of two weeks. Okay. And then from there,
 the strategy was just to monetize those links by publishing content. So you're absolutely right.
 You know, so when you when you're thinking of of what's the ultimate way to build your brand,
 it's PR. But as I said earlier, 99% of the stuff goes nowhere.
 So it's these one and a million, one and a thousand kind of PR campaigns that really,
 really stick where you kind of just, you just are there at the right time, at the right place
 with the right story. All right. And those can really, really just change your fortunes forever.
 Yeah. Okay. If we wind down here, Larry, really appreciate your time, your insight, a lot of
 nuggets here. Is there a, what's the future hold? I know, you know, sure you've got a crystal ball
 behind you back there somewhere. But what's where we headed? Do we just we're growing mobile
 monkey? We're adding new platforms. We're taking it to new realms. We're going to sell it for
 $300 billion at some point or whatever. What what are we doing? Where do you want to be in 20 years?
 Where's Larry Kim? Are we going to, are we going to ride to the sunset? Are you just going to
 keep building things? You know, it's, it's hard to say. I can see on one hand a great future head
 for this company. And, you know, on one hand, there's, there's a company called SCM Rush that,
 you know, they hustled for a decade and they just went public earlier this year. And it's like a
 multi-billion dollar business, okay, publicly traded. And, and, and I think that would be a,
 a really interesting journey. On the other hand, I can also see that this is a valuable
 piece of real estate in terms of like just messaging functionality, which appears to have been
 forgotten by a lot of major marketing and, and sales platforms. And, and so we, we do get quite a
 few inquiries about, you know, just, you know, partnership or, or acquisition. And, you know,
 so that could also, you know, possibly happen. So it just, you never really know. I don't,
 I'm just happy, happy doing or doing I'm very excited for this Instagram stuff. And, and, and,
 you know, I'm hoping that this can be like the, like a really valuable communication platform for
 individuals and businesses that leverage that, that platform for, for, for, for, for getting their
 content out there. Working your right, keep up with all things Larry Kim and mobile monkey.
 So we do a lot of email marketing. We send out a lot of emails and newsletters, including,
 you know, all the content that we produce that I produce. So it's just, you know, just go into
 the website and, and, and signing up for, for that newsletter, because it, we curate that,
 like we don't send out emails for every one of the articles. It's like only the good, good stuff
 that, that's kind of proven itself to do well. We, we kind of publish stuff and see how it does.
 And, and then we round up the best stuff. That's, that's, that's one way, you know, I'm, I'm on all the
 different social media platforms and, like, I, I have a, a messaging business. So all of the,
 all the messaging channels, you know, are tied into my app and, and I get all, I get all messages.
 So, so you can, you can try messaging through messenger or, or, or Instagram.
 We'll be happy to, to chat. I can speak for my, I reached out to him on Instagram. He had his
 messenger set up and then he agreed to come on our podcast and I'm a fan of the platform.
 I'm excited about where it's going to go with Instagram. I'm having the following that we have
 there, but I really appreciate all your insight and coming on today, Larry. Awesome. Well,
 thank you so much, right? Hey guys, you know where to keep up with us. We're at theradcast.com
 and at the.rad.cast on Instagram. I'm at Ryan Alfred on all the platforms. Even on TikTok,
 baby, you can find me there. And we'll see you next time on the radcast.
 Yo, guys, what's up, Ryan Alfred here. Thanks so much for listening. Really
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