Austin Hope - from 97 Points to World Domination - Building a World-Class Winery

 Welcome to the Radical Marketing Podcast.
 Here is your host, Ryan Alford.
 Hey guys, it's Ryan Alford.
 Welcome to another edition of the Radical Marketing Podcast.
 You know, a little detour here from normal, maybe.
 But I know and talking to some of my friends when I told them that I had a certain name
 to be mentioned shortly, coming on the podcast as winos like that we all are.
 There was a lot of excitement because I don't know how Austin,
 but even Austin Hope in South Carolina is becoming a known name,
 but Austin Hope, owner and wine maker of Hope Family Wineries,
 man, it's great to have you on the podcast.
 Thanks for having me, Ryan.
 This is a super cool man.
 Pretty pumped about it.
 Yeah.
 You know, give for a while.
 It's great.
 It's been, you always got good content.
 It's fun.
 I love that.
 I appreciate you saying that.
 And my team's in our studio here doing some BTS.
 They'll be excited and proud to hear that too.
 You know, when you're in an ad agency, you got to put out some good content, you know.
 So, appreciate the kind words.
 And it's been great following you, you know, the winery business, you know,
 Instagram and technology and different things.
 It's funny that, you know, a lot of people have an embrace things.
 And I know you're a little bit of a rebel as it comes and we'll get into that.
 But it's been good following you and seeing behind the scenes of the winery and different things.
 But I can't tell you again how excited I am to have you on.
 And, you know, just want to get into it.
 So, owner, wine maker, let's start from the beginning.
 So, you know, there's going to be some people that listen to our podcast that, you know,
 all right, who's this awesome hope guy?
 You know, not me and some of our closest friends that we're actually sipping on one of your wines last night.
 But let's talk, you know, a little bit of the history, you know, your background.
 I know it's a family business.
 But let's start a little bit.
 Let's just start with a little bit of the words and story of your background and, you know, what's led to today.
 So, I'm a.
 We're a third generation in a California farmer.
 That will want to be a.
 Wanted to raise a formula that one car is growing up and now I'm sitting there talking talking to you.
 That's kind of a fast.
 But if you start from the beginning to my folks that they moved from a bigger show in California.
 So, I was born a maker's film.
 We looked to pass robles in 1978 and sort of plan wine grapes.
 And so I just kind of give you a landscape set to see it in 1978.
 There was, you know, less than a dozen wineries here, we probably count them on one hand actually.
 And, you know, less than a thousand acres of grapes.
 So my folks started to plant and plant wine grapes in which was, you know, pretty unheard of.
 We weren't very welcome into the community.
 Honestly grapes were not.
 We're not not wanted by locals.
 So this was a very much.
 I've driven by grain cattle, some dry land almonds, walnut scatter around the hillsides.
 But it was a definitely a dry land, you know, wheat grains that they were growing.
 They didn't really go hand in hand together.
 Great farming and great farming.
 So they were.
 They didn't really like us.
 It was a.
 It was not an easy thing.
 And we be honest, we didn't know what the hell we were doing.
 So, yeah.
 We came from a completely different background at the time.
 And.
 My grandfather, my mom's dad was in a beer business over there in Bakersfield.
 And he was a Texas immigrant during the Dust Bowl.
 And was working for a little distributor.
 We were pushing.
 We're pushing a switch shop A wines and, uh, Pope 45 and deliver those beers.
 And, and wines had one truck kind of deal.
 And.
 My grandfather was pretty smart about things.
 And he said, when it came up to.
 The gentleman wanted to tell us this.
 The vision he said, I'll buy it.
 And he'd been scrolling away my name.
 And he went over and he.
 He just started.
 We didn't got another truck.
 And then.
 He kept, uh, so he had Pope 45, fall staff and, uh, handful of things.
 And then he kept going to Colorado over here and would knock on eight off.
 Eight off.
 Who's door to say, hey, we want whoers.
 We want whoers.
 And he says, uh, we don't have whoers.
 We can't.
 We can't go that far.
 And that went on for a while.
 And then finally.
 Finally, uh, eight of said, okay, I'll give you Baker still to bar.
 So that's the territory you can have.
 And he went from, you know, how.
 You know, sit on a few thousand things of a beard.
 And, you know, selling a few million cases of beard in a few years.
 Uh, my dad would work for him.
 And anyways, fast forward.
 My grandfather passed away.
 My dad was in a position to take over.
 So the company was sold to the general manager.
 And we.
 Uh, borrow some money from my, my grandmothers are signed a bank note.
 You know, the first thing went my, my dad went to.
 My dad hit my grandfather's best friend,
 which was another immigrant that came over and he ended up in farming and banking
 and all kinds of things in the valley.
 And he says, uh, he says, uh, what, what should we do?
 And he says, uh, he always called everybody cousin.
 He said, cousin moved to pass roles and plant apples were great.
 You can't screw that up.
 And so that's what we did.
 I mean, literally that's how much we did about the army.
 Uh, quickly learned that.
 Apples were not the right thing to grow up.
 So, uh, and then just kind of transition over there over time and do.
 And to plan the right varieties.
 We sold our first branch within a few years and, uh,
 to somebody that had to have it.
 And we planned about two more pieces of ground and repaid debts and, uh,
 started farming them or red grapes.
 And then as that progressed, I, I lived in, uh, you know,
 lived in the vineyards as a child.
 I mean, grew up in them and hold weeds every, you know,
 every day I was told to.
 And so I really grew up in the fields.
 And then, um, you know, we, uh,
 my uncle came into the business and he, uh,
 he was more aggressive towards the line side of it.
 So we started making some pulp wines selling pulp wine here and there.
 And, um, and then that's where we met Chuck Wagner,
 which is a family started Liberty School.
 And then Liberty School, uh, we started over the years and we started selling them,
 uh, uh, pulp wine.
 And then Chuck Wagner came down and says,
 hey, can you, uh, supply us?
 We think we're going to bring, we want to take Liberty School and see what we can do
 and bring it back out.
 Um, because it had kind of gone away in the past.
 And the beginning was truly a second label of chemists.
 So whatever leftovers they add, um,
 off of the chemists vineyard,
 they would put in a Liberty School.
 But as, uh, you know, chemists became,
 started becoming more iconic brand.
 And, um, that was, uh,
 there wasn't much fruit.
 So that's where we met.
 And the, so the Liberty School was not made there for a while,
 but then we came back.
 So, uh, we, uh, became kind of a friends and then we started doing,
 not taking trips together and then, um,
 we, uh, kind of came to the conclusion that we should, uh,
 take over the brand and bring it to Paso,
 because we were already growing it and we were making it in Paso,
 and we were following Paso.
 And at that same time, Chuck was really becoming, you know,
 what he is today, the iconic, uh, you know,
 Cabernet of Napa Valley.
 Um, and I was getting more involved in the wine.
 So I knew the Napa started working for Chuck and, um,
 you know, kind of this learning everything.
 It was, you know, super gracious and, you know,
 having the, you know, in this behind the scenes and,
 uh, the, you know, business billing and then it would be,
 uh, the marketing and then I would hang out in the tasting room
 and then he'd send me to a vineyard.
 And so I kind of got to see a lot of it, you know,
 the kind of scenes and, you know, during that time,
 we built a little tasting room down here in a bed and breakfast.
 And we hadn't really jumped completely off in the wine.
 We were having other people make it for us and, uh,
 and it was, you know, back then it was pretty, you know,
 pretty, uh, pretty fun. It's called Hope Farms winery,
 kind of cattle brand on the label.
 It was, uh, nice.
 And we were, uh,
 just, just really signifies the,
 the luxury of red wine, the old cow branding.
 So, uh, we were not sophisticated at that time.
 And, and we weren't making sophisticated wine at that point.
 We were just making wine.
 We, we had, uh, you know, several wine makers around here
 that would, you know, make us a muscat canal,
 and make us some waste in the deal, make us a merlot.
 And, uh, and, you know, we were really just,
 we were, it was pretty new novel thing.
 And we were, you know, we were selling cabernet,
 chocolates at the house.
 And whoever was driving a first cat,
 going to see her scousel would pass us.
 And there wasn't any winery.
 So they stopped.
 So during that,
 you know,
 the white things started talking about mouth.
 It was really, really trying to, uh,
 push the family into the wine business
 and my dad was kind of, you know,
 hesitant to really jump off the back.
 So, you know, we had a, you know,
 a good thing going with farmers.
 And that's what we did.
 Um, so to mean while we're working for them,
 we want to, uh, on a, on a trip together,
 uh, my dad, Chuck Wagner,
 uh, Chuck Wagner's, uh, General Manager of Ball
 and, uh, my uncle of Ball.
 And we were in Mexico as, uh,
 and then we just were talking and he says,
 uh, we started saying,
 why don't we take over to every school,
 give it a sense of place,
 and see what we can do with it.
 And then we, uh,
 we, uh,
 we, uh,
 we, uh,
 we set it all up and we're prepared to go.
 And that was the 95 and got it all together.
 And, uh,
 and, uh,
 and, uh,
 and, uh,
 and, uh,
 and 96, uh,
 my uncle,
 which was really spirited,
 and it,
 who I looked up to a lot,
 uh,
 spirited the wine piece of it,
 uh, died.
 And actually today,
 in 813,
 uh,
 how?
 1996.
 And, uh,
 I'm sorry to hear that,
 but maybe we're celebrating him now.
 Yeah,
 he would,
 uh,
 he would, uh,
 flip a lid if he saw it wear it today.
 So,
 it was interesting because I,
 it was, um,
 not to get too diagnosed,
 but I just,
 I came from the,
 uh,
 cemetery just now,
 uh,
 or every,
 or every,
 every,
 uh,
 you know,
 the year he died,
 or the day he died,
 uh,
 it's amazing, you know,
 because it,
 it really changed our family,
 and put us all in a reflection,
 and, uh,
 changed everything we've done.
 But I think he'd be super proud,
 and, um,
 you know,
 such a cool,
 cool legacy to see,
 but,
 so anyways, that happened,
 and, um,
 uh,
 took like your ass me,
 and, uh,
 can I do this?
 And my, um,
 my dad asked me,
 can I do this?
 Because my dad did not want to be in the wine,
 the wine side of it,
 and,
 luckily,
 I was, um,
 yeah,
 full of that,
 I was thrown,
 and my,
 I had to,
 you know,
 my dad calls it,
 my dad calls it piss and vinegar.
 Yeah.
 All right.
 So,
 luckily I said yes,
 and, you know,
 it was, uh,
 being, I hired,
 um,
 we hired a wine salesman,
 and I went and prepped,
 uh,
 a guy named Jesse,
 that way,
 I hope he's with my whole life,
 you know,
 plastic immigrant story came
 Mexico,
 legal,
 became,
 were purpose morning.
 He was,
 a long time ago,
 but, uh,
 he's,
 brought him in and said,
 you'll ever make wine,
 going to go out and weed,
 and he'd come on and,
 go and,
 then,
 three of his win would add it,
 and,
 and now here,
 we are today,
 where,
 you know, we're,
 in every,
 in every state,
 in about,
 nine to 10 countries,
 and,
 and,
 and just,
 we've got five,
 five brands,
 and,
 I love it. So are we at pretty much is this year 25 then I'm hearing if I'm adding the numbers up right Trayanna launching in 95 is that safe.
 So 19 or 24 years as your own label.
 You know, I guess Liberty School was always kind of your label in a way, but you know officially with taking it back to Joe, did you guys take it back in that same time here was a few years before that.
 We started starting the conversation in 95 because we were actually making the wine in pass rules at the time back then because they didn't have space up there.
 So it was natural to making the wine down here and so on and so forth. So it was really 96 95 96 is when we closed the deal put it all together and took it took it down here and gave it to gave it it's it's new roots because the brand was actually started in 75 by Charlie Lager, Chuck Wagner's father.
 So it's got quite the legacy actually.
 It's crazy, you know, I told you kind of pre episode that I had known I think, you know, and starting to follow you guys, there was some connection to Chuck Wagner, but I did not know the Liberty School connection exactly so that's fascinating and you know, even non wine drinkers.
 I think knows the the camus and the Chuck Wagner's name. I mean, I loved it. I mean, any insights or perspective there. I mean, one of the best known cat probably the best one of the top three or four best known cabardes in the world now, I would venture to say what
 and obviously learning from him and I take, you know, I taste it now in your wines a little bit some of the pedigree there. I definitely want to talk about that a bit too, but is there any insights into
 you know, someone that's, you know, a casual wine drinker, you've heard of camus any good Chuck Wagner stories or insights that would be, you know, like something that that would be unusual or you wouldn't know or wouldn't expect coming from, you know, again, kind of a champion of Cabernet.
 I think the part of the biggest thing that you know, Chuck taught me, you know, he never taught me how to make wine and he and neither one of us are classically trained in why making which I think is a plus.
 And my head and why maker was a welder when he started it for me and he runs my all my wine now. So I mean, we're definitely come from the old school, old farming background.
 And I think the biggest thing with Chuck and similar me is we're both dreamers.
 And if there was any one thing that that Chuck influenced or taught me was, I would ask him questions, you know, I was going to be like, hey, what do you think about this and you go, I don't know, try, I don't know, try it.
 And I would be like, that concept, but they give you was a take away with with Chuck is that he's an absolute, he's a dreamer.
 And I've always been that way myself. So we've always connected because we're very, our brains are constantly moving. I think we're both, you know, super AHD and I know I am.
 I don't well enough. I think his mind works that way too. We're very, very driven and we're always thinking about what we can do next, what we're about to talk about that.
 And if you're classically trained, why make your others in any wrong things wonderful.
 But you don't, you have a second rule book, right? You're giving this book. And it might be, you know, in your industry too.
 It's like, yeah, but this is what you do. Well, if you don't follow those rules, I mean, typically that are the ones that are on top or the ones that steer out of that.
 Like, you know, I mean, you can't, you can't live in these things. And we've messed up why before me. And, but so what? You know, we've learned some things and some prior fires are things over the years that, you know, I mean, people looked at me like I was absolutely insane. I mean, I work for me.
 Like, you can't do that. I'm like, yeah, I can't. I mean, I mean, radical shit. I mean, so, but well owning an, owning an agency named radical. This is all relating really well. This is why this is why we're kindred spirits. I think we started following each other here. I'm feeling the parallel now.
 Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's, but that would be my biggest thing as far as Chuck. He's a, he's a, he's a passionate, extremely hardworking man that that always is dreaming and pushing him, but always pushing, pushing, pushing.
 And, and I think that's what makes greatness, right? I mean, you know, he, like I said, he didn't, he didn't show me how to make lines. I mean, we've talked about lines. And, and I appreciate the compliment about, you know, our minds are have similarities.
 And, you know, it's funny because we've been making wine for so long.
 It's a, you know, what do they say, a blank squirrel finds and finds and not every once in a while or whatever it is. It's like, you know, I think we've, we've, we've, we've been extremely under the radar.
 And that's just the way we roll. We don't, we're never beaten and drum very loud. We just do what we do. And, you know, if you talk to people in industry, they know who I am.
 I'm super aggressive and very aggressive my whole life with them. I've always pushed distributors and in different, different respects than most of them do.
 And, you know, being that I was so young when I started.
 It's the, it was interesting how to lie about my age and I didn't begin because I was only 22 and all this happened because I wasn't supposed to be the head of this wine company about eight months.
 And so I was kind of distraught in and a really young age. I mean, we, like, I'd lie about my age and a lot of my stuff was on phones back in the day.
 Like, I was very aggressive and I knew what I wanted. I knew where I wanted to go. And we made wines that were, you know, good. But we never, you know, it wasn't too, you know, I think if you're in the industry or drink any of these wines, a lot of people know these wines, but probably don't associate me, right?
 It's like, I need the glory. Yeah, because I didn't even want to name that brand lost and hope.
 And I started back in 2000 when I, when I, my, we make a, a, a, a, a run line. So we make a straw or not.
 Those type of grapes from our state video we're out right now.
 And it was actually Chuck Wagner that pushed me to use that name back in 2000. He was looking at it and I had, you know, I've got a drawer full of labels and names. I mean, from always creating things all the time.
 And he's like, I think he should do a used to use Austin hook. Oh, my God. He's awesome. Oh, man, that's not.
 And it sounds like you're egotistical.
 Very name. I am like the most giving the biggest heart guy in the world. And it just felt uncomfortable.
 I thought weird and thought about it for a while. And he kept pushing on me. He's like, can you use that name? It's a good name.
 And I'm scared that it's authentic. It's real. It's, it's you. And I'm like, I don't know. So I finally did it on the run lines.
 And that was, you know, I said, okay, so I did it. And, you know, over the what 10, 20 years, you get comfortable with it. Now it's just a brand right now. It's like, it's, it's odd.
 Yeah, we're going to talk about Austin. No, but I was like, this weird.
 I get it. Oh, I get it all. And I'm glad Chuck pushed you to it because let me tell you as I've been bringing some of the largest companies in the world, my entire career.
 It is a beautiful name for a wine. And I got attached to it. Like I literally the first time I had it, it was purely the name. It's like Austin hook.
 That sounds like a badass Cabernet. And I'm going to digress for a second. The, the relationship of the Kamis comment to this coming from someone that considers themselves.
 I have a ton of wine. I have 500 bottles in our house. And so I'm, but I'm not a connoisseur. You know what I like about you and Kamis? It tastes damn good.
 I like it. So that's the connection. Now whether or not there's a profile or this that another, I know a rich delicious wine. And there's the connection. But, but back to the brand. Yes. Very, I'm glad Chuck told you that because it's a perfect name.
 So we, when we released the, when we released the Austin hook, but it'd been in making for several years, because actually we went through kind of a struggle.
 We had some, I made some poor choices on, on management and kind of took my half the box. We were doing really well.
 Then I jumped off and built in a stillery and Kentucky. And so I wasn't paying attention to what was happening. And we kind of went, went south really fast. And I was like all of a sudden, I serviced and money was all messed up and sales were going down.
 Discounting was happening. So I had to kind of cut ties with that all seen and clean up and rebuild the company and get it back to profitable, which was, it was a, you know, three big life lessons for me that I'll never forget. And I guarantee you won't happen again. But.
 So when we did that, if we, I mean, I really, what I, the root of this brand is, is to your point, which you said, Rich, good drinking wine, right? I mean, you've got, you know, critics all over the world are going to tell you this, tell you that.
 And then you've got, you know, these connoisseurs, which I personally, I'm not a kind of serene. I know what I like. I know what I like. And that's one of the biggest things that anyway that works for me in sales is if they have any slight pretentiousness that they're not, they're not working with us. Because to me, it's a, I tell them all the time. So do you miss it by wine?
 Make it approachable, make it easy for people because it's already intimidating thing, right? And you're like, uh, because, you know, I mean, I, you know, I mean, pick a business. I couldn't just jump in there and start telling you what I like and don't like and how it should work. And then you know, why it's like that, right? Plus it's.
 For years, it had this aristocratic kind of feel to it. And it was just, you know, you didn't want to be embarrassed. Nobody wants to be embarrassed. It's about mine, right? It's a good, you know, you're out of your lady and like, oh, or a lot.
 Oh, it's not for a lot of us. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, yes.
 Trying to, some of those Ron varietals too. Good grief. You're kidding?
 Yeah, right. Reaughtner. Yeah. Yeah.
 And that's the thing. So we've, we've, we're super really aggressive on education, demystifying.
 And, you know, my dad had a, there was a guy in back in the days, he saw great tubes.
 And he was one of the guys actually, it was a really helped with the white Zimpidil movement from Sutter Home. He worked for him.
 We sold white Zimpidil to him back in the early 80s.
 And he, and he said, he says, boys, let's not make this too complicated. This is not the holy grail.
 It's a beverage at a company's food.
 And it holds up today. It's like it's so true.
 I love that. So when was the first year of Austin Hope Cab? What was your launch year?
 So 2015 was the first vintage.
 And then a big whopping score from the wine enthusiasts didn't hurt 97.
 Was it a blessing in a curse? Let's just go down that path. So first year's 2015 97 from wine enthusiasts.
 Wonderful or terrible or more. It's got to be more wonderful. I'm sure. But let's talk about that a bit.
 Well, it.
 That the brand was a.
 It has been in my head and been planning on something like this for seven years prior to that.
 So I went and found we've been studying soils and really was wanting to create, you know, a really shoot for the highest goal.
 He said, we want to, you know, and my team didn't even know about this yet.
 So this was me still working behind the scenes not telling even my wine making team what we were doing.
 So we went and found new vineyards because I know what the best sites for best soils are for Cabernet in this area.
 Because I've studied in my whole life. And because of technology and analytics and being able to test soils and grapes and wine for 10 ends and all these things that get you can go down rather forever.
 This was being in my head. But I want to create this, you know, the standard for luxury Cabernet.
 And I want to be able to create it. That's is drinkable because one of the things I don't like about Cabernet is that they they know a lot of people have to do the tannins.
 Tannins can be so harsh and so aggressive and have a bite, you know, and it's like scotch, right?
 So a lot of people don't like scotch, but they'll say they do because they think it's cool.
 And I think, you know, you get that really hard wood.
 Oh, yeah, right? And I still, I still believe that half of people during scotch really don't enjoy it.
 But they feel like they like, yeah, yeah, just so good.
 Drives my mouth out so good.
 I'm like, how's that good? That's not good.
 So anyways, again, it gets your point. We really practice it. And then I kept making the wine.
 And we figured out how to make tannins become soft and soft, but analytically still very high.
 So it would have the age potential, it had the weight and the density that tannins create, but not have that drying part of feeling.
 So we developed this basically evening and and through a couple of different proprietary things that we do.
 And then just really find the right slows and using the right barrels and use it like there's so much goes into it.
 Anyways.
 So this prior to releasing this line, you know, and again, go back, I'm kind of reshaping the company.
 We've we've basically took the company dump it out, clean house, a whole new team, we finance team, new everything.
 And and I went to my distributors and met with all the presidents of one big organization and because they have a big convention every year.
 So you pen them down because they're all there every state.
 It's like purgatory form, but anyways.
 And we go in there and I had dinner with them and I said, OK, guys, what we're doing.
 I'm going to make this cavernay. It's going to be 50 bucks. It's, you know, we're going to make a fair amount of it.
 And we're going to we're going to grow it. And this is going to be the standard of luxury cavernay with hostels.
 I believe in it. This was going to happen.
 And one of the presidents.
 I'm going to make a name with Scott. I'm going to piss him off anymore. I've already teased him enough.
 He says, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's a lot of wine. And you know, that's a lot of money from this region.
 And you know, we support you, but you know, don't go index in my state of your goals.
 And I'm like, I said, I am going to index off of your state. And he says, he says, well, you're going to have to get a 97 or something.
 Oh, my God.
 97. So I don't know if it's a self-professed or whatever they call that.
 You will did to happen.
 I did. But to your point to your question, it was, it was alarming quite honestly, you know, because we put so much time.
 I love dedication and creating this and, and a ton of money in this because we went around our distributors.
 It was really interesting, but I remember I was just right up the road right here when I got, I got a text.
 And I was like, holy shit.
 And then it was like, I pulled over. I mean, literally pulled over. I was like, are you serious right now?
 I'm like, I don't think that one of the diseases is ever given to you based score that high for this region. And turns out it was the highest rated wine, the one enthusiast publication.
 And there are 30 years of publication. I've given a score, but why not? I'm like, you know, and I'm not, I'm not a, I'm not a score guy per se, but it is a validation that's real.
 It's from a, you know, a very seasoned, you know, wine critic that it tastes thousands of thousands of wine a year. So I don't mean for them to say that it was just like, wow, this is crazy.
 But it was interesting at that point. It was really, it definitely helped light up torch to a couple different things. One was prior to this. So we did a very aggressive promotion on the wine.
 On premise is what they call restaurants and opera must be retail chains to see at the jargon. But so we were very focused on on premise and true ways to build wine brands is on premise because a lot of times you'll see brands that blow up. It's not that that's just be forced in there.
 They're really big companies that they go to distribute. They say, this is what's happening. They put all this marketing dollars to it. They, they, you know, incentivize all the sales people and next thing you know, like a brand like Josh is on is everywhere. Right. You can't walk into somewhere and not see brand new job. So that's forcing something into marketplace.
 Sometimes they last, sometimes they don't, but they, you know, they've got to get the right player profiles, etc.
 The traditional ways that I've grown up doing it is, is you put it in the restaurant. You need restaurants to pour it by the glass.
 And then the consumers will tell you, and that's what was happening with this brand. We put, you know, it's an expensive bottle of wine. But what we did is we, we put it as in as in place to where restaurants could buy it at a reduced price to be able to afford to pour it by that glass.
 So next thing you know, consumers are like, and they're just lovely. We hit the player profiles. That was the key, right. We hit, we did what we intended to do, you know, create a, a cabinet that everybody can enjoy.
 And it was a reasonable price, right. And because we did wine tastings and everything we do, we always, we do blind tastings where we tasted against hard and we tasted against screaming eagle, all blind.
 Before we even bottled this wine, like, do we fit in these frames? Are we good or better than, you know, a $50 bottle of wine from Napa to a $12 dollar bottle of wine from Napa.
 And we thought we did. And obviously we did. So then the score hit. And then it was like all of a sudden the distributors were like, yeah, man, we're on this. We're kicking ass. I'm like, come on.
 Yeah, you're like, holy cow. I called your own. I wouldn't call it a bluff. You knew you had something great. I mean, but called your shot there. It's kind of like aiming to what was the famous baseball player.
 I don't know. I knew it. Yeah. The lefty older, whatever. Yeah, it was, it was, it was special, right. I mean, then you fall it up. And then at this length, I just kept going, you know, and now it's like this to a point where, you know, but then it just kept, you know, I kept going to say, you know, history, right? I mean, no, yeah.
 You've gotten you followed it up with 95 plus scores since, you know, which is pretty unheard of. It wasn't a one hit wonder. You know, I do. I have a great. I have a question. Another, you know, I've been drinking for so long, but only know so much.
 How do you keep? I know it's probably comes from the same, you know, fields and, you know, and all those things. How do you keep the profile so consistent? There's definitely nuances. I mean, I have all of these at home that's from 15 to I don't have any of the 18 yet.
 But how do you, how do you maintain? I'm sure there's processes, but that consistency of flavor.
 That's a, that's the key, right? That's what everybody's trying to figure out, right? Because our competitors were, were.
 I mean, we've already found out that they've been testing our lines and because we've got, you know, we're, we're pretty connected. So we hear it's a great line because we work with laboratories and we know people work at different languages.
 Yeah. People are trying to figure out our formula and, you know, it's not a formula that it's a, and that was when you go back that seven years, right? That was, that was why it took so long because not only is, I think, as an important that you can be consistent, but be able to grow.
 If you, if the market dictates growing, then you need to be able to, can I scale this and continue to make the same quality quality line? So I mean, you know, we've been, and also this goes back, you know, 20 plus years.
 We've been figuring out how to, how to, how to work with barrels, but what barrel profiles?
 We've, what yeast do we use? We've got our own cultures of yeast and like, we've really been playing with us for a while. And you know, like around like livery school, right?
 I mean, it's a great bottle of wine and it's always consistent. I mean, and we've really gotten very good at that. So when we step it up to go into this, you know, the higher end carbon A game, it was super important. And it's, and it's not easy, believe it.
 It just came from the wine earlier, tasting wines. And that's what we do. We open bottle. And so now we, it's, it's not a formula, but in a sense, it is on because we deal with, you know, about a nature, but we know the soils.
 We know how to manage hands like nobody's business. And we know what oak works. Because oak is a, is something that is, is definitely influence in the wine.
 But I would say we're, I would say we're very good at managing oak because oak can get away from you very quickly.
 Yeah. But to get integration with oak flavor, get the good oak flavors and not the raw hormones. That's the hard thing. So I think, you know, we feel good. We've been able to grow.
 Every year, you know, we did a 15 guy grade score 16 followed up with a great score than 17. We were a number 10 line of the world for plant enthusiast.
 Which was crazy because that's, you know, that one blew me away even more because it was a, you know, they taste 24,000 wines.
 That's across varietals, right? I mean, number 10 in the world.
 Yeah.
 So the editors and critics, yeah, they taste 24,000 wines a year. And then they throw in what they think their best wine.
 The best 100 wines they tasted that year. And then they all go around and round.
 That was a text that blew my mind. That was like, I mean, 97 already, you know, totally screwed me.
 I know it will only be third place because the 95 and the 20 and the number 10, those, those are probably one and two. But number three can be most popular at the offered family parties.
 So, you know, if we could get that on the website, you can raise some more visits. I know. So number one in the world within the offered residence when we have parties.
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 So I know you'll cherish that one. But, but in all seriousness though, it's congratulations on all of that.
 I know it's got to, you know, you put your heart and soul, you put your name on it.
 And to have all that hard work kind of, you know, justified or, you know, again, not even being a score person, which I feel that from you.
 And I already see that from you, but it still has to feel good and, and, you know, even to your team.
 I mean, you know, like sometimes those things, you know, even, you know, managing teams and stuff like that.
 You know, means it's kind of pat on the back for them of like, you know, justification and things like that, right?
 I agree. I think, you know, I think it, you know, it's like, I did horrible school, right?
 I got pulled out of school and playing. And, you know, the grades were just there, right?
 So you'd take them for good or bad or whatever, but it didn't mean much to me.
 But to validate, you know, I mean, this is a, you know, worldwide publication and validate something like that on multiple things, you know, years in a row.
 I mean, yeah, our team walks proud. I mean, and it's interesting because, you know, I've had some of the best publicists in the world.
 So I thought, you know, we've done marketing, we've done advertising, we've done, you name it.
 And I'm always five years ahead of where we should be.
 And I could, that'd be a whole lot of the podcast and things that I tell you we've done.
 It's just crazy. Close your mind. I, that was like in house marketing, like yesterday.
 She's like, I told her what I was doing with this new brand. She's like, yep, you're five years ahead again.
 But it's a, it's toe validation, right? It makes people feel good that you, you know, my team and you know, they're walking proud or I mean, you can see it.
 What's interesting to me is like, you know, we've been around for so long and we've been successful, but, but it's like it's a, it's almost like we're a new winery, which is kind of, it's kind of.
 It's uncanny. It's funny. And, and I've talked to people about it. It's like, like, and we've helped, you know, bring more.
 Noticed to pass, which is, that makes me happiest because honestly, I guess the key that you'll take away as you get to know me is that I'm a, I'm a consummate.
 You know, marketer of passive. I talk passive first in a second because we work this, they can't just be one person. That's great. We all have to be great. We all have to get people to come here.
 You know, and so I do feel that we've, we've, we've helped get a lot of attention. I mean, just in Southern California alone, it's insane.
 Like, I, like joke with people and they come up and I'm like, really, how you guys been?
 Reuben, seriously, you're three and a half hours away. You've never heard of us. And now all of a sudden, and we can't keep you out of our
 tacy room. You want to reach out to this tower and I'm like, they realized that like, oh, I love these other wine too. And I'm like, dude, where you been?
 Yeah, exactly. So how is that? You know, and I do, like, we're going to have to have some follow up. I think we're going to, I'm going to create a wine segment with, uh, with Austin Hope if he's down for it is part of our, like, maybe buy monthly.
 Uh, if we can keep you interested, uh, because I think we can dive deep in a lot of these areas, but I am fascinated by the whole map of pass.
 I'm sure you guys felt like, you know, the redhead stepchild that you weren't, by the way, but you have, but, you know, that's been both rewarding and I am curious, you know, if that is kind of how it felt.
 It's sweet. You know, I mean, we used to joke, I mean, years ago, we'd always say we're the faster child of an apple, you know, they come down by grapes from us, they take it up, they're blended into their, you know, simple coast or California, appulated or some of the nap lines, because you can blend in, you know, the other percentage of regions in wine, not and consumers wouldn't know.
 And by law.
 Now, yeah, we were always a faster child and then it was just like, you know, again, it was fly right over us.
 It's all about nap, but it's like, it's changed. Like in the last, you know, four years, three years, really, it's, um, to see all the people coming here and discovering it, it makes me happy, right?
 You know, we are a little class growing region, right? And there's no question about my mind that we can compete in those we were competing.
 We can compete on a world stage. It's our, our people ask, you know, what's our goal? And I say, global domination. That's it.
 Sorry, that's what we want. We want to just drink past Robo's lines. And we're, and, and there were so much diversity here at what school, because I think with three more people here, right, they get here. Maybe, maybe they came because they want a, they heard about awesome.
 So we get in here and we show them all these other brights that we do and all these other things, and we send them to our neighbors and the diversity in our region is ridiculous, right?
 I mean, we've got 11 sub ABAs that we've developed.
 But it's still, it's still possible, but we can, I mean, I got a neighbor that grows P and R that I'm blindfolded you, they came from Bernie because it's a very cool region that where he's growing it.
 Whereas you go 10 miles east. I mean, you grew up in our out there. It's going to taste like shit.
 Yeah.
 And we can grow Siroa. We're, we're, we're in a tip of the gap district, which is the coolest sub region in Paso.
 That tastes like northern Rome, or leather, or blueberry, or structure, meat, game, kind of quality.
 So I can go 15 miles east of here and I can grow Siroa there because it's the warmest region in the area that will taste like, like shirats, bubble gum, fruit, bright.
 So it's just, it's an amazing region that I think we're scratching the servers on what we can, what we can do.
 It's exciting.
 I will say that Trayana cabs, damn good ball of wine, too. You know,
 it's like,
 it's a tell you that.
 I should, I should tell you this, but I'm honest to the fault when people get on my ass all the time.
 So Trayana came about as, that was my practice wine for awesome.
 So it's a, that's what I, that's why I started that brand.
 So because of that, if you go back for rice and I've got to be able to do consistency, you can be able to scale.
 If you're going to make a real brand that's, you know, going to be a legacy brand.
 So we asked how that brand started and I, and I made it a dedication to the three men that were, you know, super influential in my life, my father, my uncle, Chuck Wagner.
 And so that wine, we kept doing it, doing it, doing it.
 And then once I felt okay, we got it, now we're just going to turn it up a little bit with the awesome note.
 That's how that brand started. So you're actually right. That's the kick-ass ball of wine for the price.
 And that's the only thing we can talk about is pricing because we're, you know, one of the big things for us is, is, I always want to over-deliver.
 And, you know, one of our, like, models or ethos, if you will, is, is to, you know, deliver an honest product for, for, for a good price.
 And, you know, too often in this industry, mainly, you know, and not just in the North, but here as well, people will just put a number on it.
 And I don't, like, I never ask, like, where do you, where do you come up with the inside of all of that?
 I don't know. Well, I mean, it's like, we run our company like a business. I mean, it's, it's a real business.
 We, analytically, look at things. This is what it costs. It's great. It's just what it costs in barrels. This is what it costs in people.
 And then we go to get margin on it. And that's, that's what we sell before. We don't just double it because we feel like double it.
 It's like, but, you know, I mean, marketing, spying, and all of the stuff that goes along with it is, is interesting.
 If you, I really believe if you go through all of our brands, you nights of the time, everybody will feel like they got more value or more flavor, more, more value than for the price.
 Which that's, you know, that's the result they heard in.
 So we're, you know, a couple more things. And we'll save some for the next round. But where's the, where's this all headed? You know, both, what's your pronostications for both the industry?
 I mean, you know, I know you're someone that kind of pushes against the grain a bit, maybe with the industry and with the hope of family wineries.
 I mean, what any kind of tidbits on where you see things going or changing holistically and, and then, you know, where you see the winery going.
 It's a combination.
 I was in Europe. It's not that long ago. I mean, we're, we're pushing into other markets and, you know, we're already in some of the Asian markets and we're pushing hard.
 Like, I mean, I really want, you know, when I say global domination, I mean it as a pass, so like I want the world to pass up.
 Yeah, I know the world knows, knows Napa Valley.
 Great. But I want to know pass up. I mean, just, just as I do, you know, they know Bordeaux or whatever. So that's my goal mentally.
 You know, it's where I think the world's going. I think that, you know, contrary to the media that, you know, always just want to spin things into a negative light.
 I think that I think wine is, is finally becoming a culture.
 Whereas I don't know about you, I don't know how old you are, but what would I correct? Why was not on our table every night?
 But at our house, wine is on our table every year. So now my daughters, I can pretty much assure you that that new generation now has seen that, right?
 My goal and my thought is, I think it will be like, I think it's only going to grow.
 I do think that you're going to see, you're going to see lower quality wines.
 I think they're going to slowly, really have to bring their game up because what's happening is the consumers getting educated, right? And that's never happened before.
 You know, I mean, you think about like the awesome little cabinet that we produce that we've hit something that consumers enjoy, and this is what I enjoy.
 If we talk about it, I don't want to try and cabinet it's like, yeah, you're told this is good.
 Okay, but I don't like it. And I think that, you know, through not only through internet, through social media, our society talks more than has ever talked before, whether it's whatever platform it is, Facebook, phone, texting, like communication and information is flowing.
 And you can learn about a wine so quickly, you can learn about a region so quickly that our consumers become more educated.
 And that's what I think the consumers are going to continue to demand higher quality products.
 So I don't think that, you know, the average wines are going to continue to go.
 I think that everybody's got to discover the game because our consumers, I think, are becoming more educated.
 And then you know, it's going to take a generation it always does. You know, I mean, it's like the next generation.
 And I'll just talk about the millennials and stuff. I mean, that's just driving a bonkers and so sick of hearing that we can't market to them. We can't do this. We can't do that.
 You know, find a way. I think people are, I think why that particular audience is not being, not, not, or people say they can't market to them because everybody's trying to do.
 And so they're, they're pushing back because they're like, do them alone.
 Like, and we don't, we don't, we don't do that. We just saw her story.
 And like, I mean, this is who we are, like our wines, like our wines, we don't, okay, move on.
 But I think that, you know, they'll go just like us, and I wasn't bringing wine at 16 to 20 years old. I mean, I was, I was drinking booze, beer.
 Yeah.
 And that's just, that's just life, man. So I don't think anything's changed. I think it's a, and we're going to, everything's always sick of, right?
 It just keeps coming around. I keep looking back at things that keep changing and it's interesting.
 So I think, I think you're going to see wine consumption continue to rise, but I do think you're going to see wine falling continue to rise because that's what the consumers are going to dictate.
 Yep, I agree. And I think the, the low, the low guy on the totem pole has you, you, you to blame.
 Personally, making a killer wine at a great value.
 Well, cool, man. I really, you know, I think we could go on for two hours. I'm feeling this vibe that, you know, we could just keep on keeping on.
 But I'm going to hold you to maybe getting back together for another episode here.
 And I mean, how's the impact? You know, I've been kind of staying off the whole pandemic discussion for the most part with most of guests.
 But has it any impact or anything of note? I mean, you guys are probably rocking. It might be increasing sales of people at home.
 But have you guys seen? I know it's probably hurt your tasting room a bit, but you guys just kind of ready to.
 We're, we're, you know, it's interesting because we're, we're definitely off. I think, you know, this is what may be a blood bath for us.
 April was, was okay. The first three months were obviously great. We did good.
 So, you know, I would say we build our build brands on premise on restaurants. So nationally, on, on all of our brands put together, we were like 56, 58% restaurants.
 So, that's a big impact on us. So, over half our business. So we had to quickly shift to get to retail.
 And to get reaching a lot of authorizations, it's just like any other business, right? I mean, I can't go into, in the target right now and start talking about selling on the summer line right now.
 They're going to be like, okay, well, thanks for pitching it now. So we'll look at maybe next summer.
 So we're pitching. We've already pitched for two months ago for fall for supermarkets, just again, sets.
 So we couldn't, so we had to shift to different manners. And, you know, we're fine. I think we're going to be off probably by the end of the day.
 We'll probably be off 10%.
 Yeah.
 That is our team has been able to push into independent retailer for we could make, we could force our way in.
 But we've been, I think what we've also done has been super progressive. I think we were early on in the progressive with the Zoom stuff.
 I mean, I've done, you know, to Zoom things for I'm doing one Friday for us, the white mark, I've done it for, we've done some things with more rooms.
 We've done it with steak houses across the country and just trying to be interactive. We do Zoom tastings by appointment with one of our wine advisors or a tasty room.
 But, you know, the retail part business that we did have has increased, which is, I think, going to help our business and stabilize the bosses in the restaurant.
 But definitely it's, you know, that's again, the media read me is like, everybody's drinking more and more and more. I'm like, yeah, they're drinking more, but you, I don't think people realize how, how much wine is consumed in restaurants. It's insane.
 I mean, it's a, it's a big hit, right? So, but our tasty room, we were an early, early group that, from my point of view, we started going straight to our audience.
 Like, I went through depression and then kind of jump woke up and I'm like, what are we going to do? Right?
 Because we didn't furlough one employee, which was, you know, pretty scary for us. And we didn't take any of the PPP stuff. So, we just got rolled the dice.
 You know, we got 60 people that work for us. So, it was spooky, but I went into our tasty room and said, OK, let's get smart. Let's do stuff. My wife and I started thinking.
 So, we started going to start communicating with our audience. And, you know, we already do social media. That's fine. We've got our own kind of lines that we do with my wife and another person run.
 And my Instagram is just, you know, random and vulnerable. So, what do you think?
 And then we started creating cooking videos, because I cook a lot. So, I started making cooking videos. And then I started.
 I showed other purveyors like that are wine club members and used a beef from one of them cook the tenderloin.
 And then I cooked squab from one of my buddies that's got a big squab co-op in the valley.
 And then I just started talking and just being a river like we are. And, and found that. And my wife ever make a playlist and put it into this.
 We offered, you know, painting shipping and our direct business is actually is doing great. It's doing fine. It's really weird. I mean, we don't have anybody in our tasty room.
 And it's a bar and it's sad because we have such a cool tasty room.
 It's outdoor. I mean, it's super chill, but we're doing good. We started. We were one of the first to start doing curbside pickup.
 We started home delivery right out of get going. As soon as it's happened, we just we immediately switched.
 And now people are starting to do it more. But I mean, Christ last time there was there was a line for curbside pickup.
 I think that actually poured some people's and taste of it.
 So we, you know, adapt. I love it. Well, you know, I tried to try to ignore the media personally.
 I think there's a lot of fear spreading going on, but we'll say politics for, you know, another time.
 You pretty much summed it up right now. I think it's, you know, I think there's just it appears with this. Yeah, if I stop watching the news a month ago.
 It's it's there's no answer. There's just no real things. And it's a shame to see how see people in such a year.
 That's my biggest biggest thing. Come on, man. I mean, you know, we're we're we're heard society. We've always been and we've got to protect the week. But we got to move on their lives in the years.
 You just you're hurting people in different ways. You know, I mean.
 Yeah. And I told my wife that, you know, the second day of the quasi lockdown that the biggest point is, is no one going, you can't create a bigger problem than you're trying to solve.
 I think that's the bottom line. Isn't it? Like, you know, there's no easy answers here. But you can't create a bigger hole than the one you're trying to get out of.
 So yeah, hey, man, it's been awesome. Um, you know, huge fanboy over here on the wines, of course, but, but have from a far notice, you know, a little bit of the revel attitude and the kind of approach.
 And it comes through in a delicious wine, but also, you know, a great guy. And I really appreciate it. And I know our got our listeners are going to be thrilled to kind of hear a little bit of that backstory, the Chuck Wagner stuff's fascinating.
 And, you know, just look forward to kind of growing our friendship and talking down the line.
 I love it, man. Thank you so much. It's a water flyer that you did. It's super cool. Like I said, I like what you're doing. And thank you for for having me. Man, this is cool. Sweet.
 Well, this is Ryan offered for the Radical Company podcast. You can follow along at radical. Company or find us on Instagram at Radical Radical underscore results. We'll see you next time.
 To learn more about Radical, visit Radical Company on the web or follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryanalford. Thanks for listening to the Radical Marketing Podcast.