166 - Bio-based insulation with Patrick Sudhoff

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello everybody, welcome to the Fire Science Show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The modern building environment is going through some sort of sustainability revolution, as you obviously have noticed around, with carbon dioxide becoming one of the enemies.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>One of the goals is to get rid of it or get rid of the carbon footprint, and there's a ton of new things introduced into the market that allows us to actually play with the carbon footprint of our buildings.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>One of such things are new materials, bio-based materials.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They are made from living plants which grow.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They take CO2 from the atmosphere, they store them inside and you cut them off and put forever into your building.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, saying forever perhaps is a bit too optimistic, but at least they allow you to store this for quite a long time.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And they have other benefits too.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Now, the issue with those is obviously, as you can imagine, they pose new challenges from fire safety engineering perspectives.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They usually exhibit different fire behaviors than mineral materials.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, yeah, because they're novel, because they've never been systematically studied, the amount of knowledge we have is quite limited.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We can only base on some of our previous experiences.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But it's not that you can always extrapolate from one material to another, not that we often have a choice, but, yeah, better to have science and experimental knowledge on the material property before you start placing it in your buildings.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Now to close on that loop.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>As you can imagine, that's exactly what we have for you in today's episode of the Fire Science Show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We're going to be talking about experiments and new knowledge regarding bio-based insulation materials.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>My guest is Sudhoff from the DBI.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This was a subject of his PhD.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I actually love interviewing PhD students and young PhDs because they are usually very passionate about their subject and actually their knowledge is very, very in-depth, and this is the case as well.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, with Patrick, we're going to venture into the world of bio-based insulation materials and we're going to unravel some challenges regarding them.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I can spoil that smoldering will be a big part of this episode.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So sustainability revolution is coming to us.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We need to insulate our buildings.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We need to reduce carbon footprints.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Bio-based insulation may be the answer.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's learn.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The fire challenges related to this solution may be the answer.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's learn the fire challenges related to this solution.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome to the Firesize Show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>My name is Wojciech Wigrzyński and I will be your host.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This podcast is brought to you in collaboration with OFR Consultants.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Ofr is the UK's leading fire risk consultancy.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Its globally established team has developed a reputation for preeminent fire engineering expertise, with colleagues working across the world to help protect people, property and environment.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Established in the UK in 2016 as a startup business of two highly experienced fire engineering consultants, the business has grown phenomenally in just seven years, with offices across the country in seven locations, from Edinburgh to Bath, and now employing more than a hundred professionals.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Colleagues are on a mission to continually explore the challenges that FHIR creates for clients and society, applying the best research experience and diligence for effective, tailored FHIR safety solutions.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In 2024, ofr will grow its team once more and is always keen to hear from industry professionals.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Who would like to collaborate on fire safety futures this year, get in touch at ofrconsultantscom.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello everybody, I am joined today by Patrick Sudhoff from DBI.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello, patrick, good to have you on the show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hi, wojciech, thank you very much for having me.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We're going to talk about biobased installation materials.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I don't think I've had that topic on my podcast yet.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Materials I don't think I've had that topic on my podcast yet.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So an exciting opening.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, of course, the world of sustainability welcomes us.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I hope this will be interesting to a large audience.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And my first question is what made you pick this topic for your research.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I would say it's quite unique actually.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yeah, that's true.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So it's based on my master thesis, which I did at the University of Applied Sciences in Magdeburg-Stendal, also where the research I present here was carried out.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>And yeah, I was really fascinated by these flameless combustion mechanisms and so I wanted to dig into them because, as you mentioned, it's still a niche, but these materials are getting used more and more and we have to consider the combustion behavior of them, so I wanted to have a look at it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>For us it was a very similar pathway with the green walls.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We're doing a lot of external facades and green walls and it also lot of external facades and green walls and it also like felt.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Oh yeah, this is a.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This is an obvious direction that everyone is going in, in the world of architecture at least, but no one understands it from the fire perspective and, of course, fire behavior is not very obvious.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, uh, was the smoldering because you mentioned flameless combustion, you referred to smolderingering Was the smoldering immediately the direction of the research or was it an outcome of some experiments or work before?

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So in Germany we had quite some research projects regarding biobased insulation materials About eight to 10 years ago.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>There were some initiatives to extend the applic for, let's say, more Than Just Insulation.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>It covered not only fire behavior but also soundproofing, thermal insulation, sustainability, moisture protection and emissions.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>The aim was in general and there was a political will to force the extension of the applicability to examine the behavior of bio-based insulation in general.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>But of course the fire safety is one of the main aspects.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What were the drivers for it?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Green deal, eu policy, sustainability.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Carbon sinks like all of the usual aspects.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Carbon sinks like all of the usual specifics.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>I mean when we consider that buildings in total have a global CO2 impact of 15% or so and the insulation is one important measure to improve the energy efficiency, we have to consider which type of insulation we want to use, and in these terms, we have also to consider the gray energy, so the energy which is being used to produce the materials, and also the CO2 impact of the insulation itself.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So when we talk about sustainability with the three dimensions environment, economic and and social aspects One thing is the environment itself, but we also have to consider the social aspect, and that means a fire safe, and the idea was to use more of these materials from an environmental point of view.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>But on the same side, we have to consider then some under safety aspects.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But the applicability itself is an outcome of the U-factor how well it insulates the energy taken to produce the material and transport and everything and the overall CO2 impact, which I assume can be negative because that's common for biomaterials the insulative properties, how good those materials are, because I guess that would be a driver for many projects.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You have to get specific EU values.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You want to have your passive house, you want to have elite certificates and stuff like that.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Does it match the commonly used natural mineral wool materials or polystyrene and so on, the usual pre-bio era materials?

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yes, indeed.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So, for example, if you consider the thermal conductivity, they have comparable values, maybe slightly higher values of 0.04 or 0.038.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>One advantage of the biobased materials is the low thermal diffusivity, so you have a quite high heat capacity and that's good in terms of summer heat protection, so they can prevent the heat to go through the wall for a longer period of time, and that might be important in the future.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>And yeah, other advantages are that they have a quite high moisture diffusivity and when you think about the humidity, the interior climate, it's good to have a material which is able to transport the moisture which is generated inside the building to the outside.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Besides that, as you mentioned, we have compared to the mineral materials, the carbon storage.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So during the growth phase we store, for example, wood fiber, co2 equivalent of 1.5 kilogram per one kilogram of insulation, and they also have better recyclability than other materials.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I am going to be annoying to you, sorry.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What about biological damage?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You said they transport moisture pretty well, but wouldn't the moisture transport within a bio-based material be a reason for biological damage to that material?

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>yeah, of course there are certain limits for the humidity, so you also have to make sure that the construction is itself is diffusion open, so that you will not collect the humidity inside of the construction, which would then lead to damages.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>But yeah, with, for example, a timber frame construction or also an exterior wall, in general it is possible to build a diffusion opening.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think we didn't define the biobased insulation materials, so maybe we can give a list of what type of materials are we using?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Do you group them?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How do you subdivide them?

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yeah, so bio-based insulation materials in general are materials from renewable raw resources, for example, wood, cellulose, straw, hemp, jute, cork, wheat, seaweed, but also some fungal base, so mycelium or textile fibers are a source for the insulation.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So, yeah, there are lots of different raw materials which you can use, and it depends, of course, on the availability of the material which you should use.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In the Grand Design series they were using sheep wool.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I loved sheep wool as an insulation material.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perhaps we can get into the carbon footprint of sheep wool at some point, but let's continue.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Where do you put those?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is this like a general insulating material that you would put in normal places in your building?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Where do you find use for those materials?

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>There are different fields for the applicability.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>One is timber framing, so, for example, cavity insulation in load-bearing or non-load-bearing walls or ceilings.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>You can use it as roof insulation, like between-raster insulation, but also for interior insulation or soundproofing, or in terms of facades, when you think about external wall insulation, composite systems, for example.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>There you could also use these insulation materials or even for rear ventilated facades.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay, so far sounds great.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We have a material, bio-sourced, preferably from waste, negative carbon footprint, fantastic properties.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It just burns, and that's when you come in with this research behavior.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>First, maybe let's start with ignition, like how prone they are to ignition, are they easy to ignite?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Have you, have you measured that and have you analyzed any measures to prevent or safeguard them?

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>yes.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So when we talk about ignition we have to think about the scenarios which are likely to ignite them.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>We can maybe distinguish between a facade and a component or a component, for example a timber frame, wall or ceiling.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>The most likely scenario would be an external heat flux, so for example, a compartment fire which would lead to a thermal exposure of the wall and, depending on the cladding, for example a Gibson plasterboard or so you can reach critical temperature or critical heat flux behind them.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Besides that, you can also think of other hot surfaces.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So when you think about a chimney, for example, which could be close to an insulation material, that might be also an ignition source.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>And there are certain others, for example electrical fault arcs, which are, according to our research, not so likely.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Likely scenario is either also a compartment fire, so an exposure from the inside, or maybe a garbage can, a burning garbage can on the ground, but also flying sparks from a neighbor's burning balcony would be a scenario.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So these are the different scenarios we are talking about.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Usually the material is encapsulated somehow and this is also then relevant for the ignition itself.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So when we examine ignition temperatures we can distinguish between an exposed surface and also a long-term exposure.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>For example, we put some samples cubic samples in a hot storage oven overnight and 170 degrees were enough for a thermal runaway of these materials.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So that might be not a realistic scenario for a wall or a ceiling, because it's three-dimensional and it's uncovered.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>But when you think about a long-term exposure, for example a chimney, the ignition temperature might be relevant.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>For claddings, for example, we have higher ignition temperatures of 300 to 400 degrees.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>With the thermal runaway you mean like onset of some sort of self-ignition.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Biological or decomposition properties Like we know, like linen and cloth, will give you like self-ignition at some point because of the reactions there.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So is this a similar mechanism?

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yeah, it's not a biodegradation mechanism, also not based on the carrier also, but with the higher temperatures you have a certain heat release in your sample and depending on the volume of your sample and the surface, you have a balance between the heat generation and the heat loss to the sides.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>And there's a critical point that's kind of a critical ambient temperature also where you have, depending also on your cube size or on your sample size, have a high heat generation depending on the volume and compared to that, low heat loss on the sides.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>And then you have this kind of ignition, self-ignition, thermal runaway point Going back to your scenarios.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm not sure which would worry me more the flashover compartment fire that eventually transitions to the wall, or a small like arc, or failure in electrical system.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think I would be more worried about the small one, you know, because if if my house went through the flashover I'm not sure if the fact if my hemp wall is still there or not is my biggest concern in my life at that point I probably could understand.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, as long as they don't contribute that much to the fire.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But I assume that's the reason you encapsulate them.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's actually interesting that you've brought them so.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You would say that in normal, everyday use encapsulation is the typical approach, like unlike wood where architects would like to have them exposed.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess there's not that much sexiness in sheep wool exposed in your room, right?

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Right, that's true.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So usually with timber framing, where you would use a cavity insulation like loose fill, blown-in insulation or even mats, you would have some kind of planking or cladding and depending on the thickness of your cladding, you have a certain ignition protection.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>For example, two layers of 18 millimeter Gibson plasterboard would protect your insulation for at least 60 minutes with standard fire curve and we also did some experiments with the natural fire curve, which considers structural fire loads, so exposed timber in the projects.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>But what you have to consider is when you have, for example, electrical installations, for example, a socket would be an entry point.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So even when your cladding would be able to protect it, if you have a light switch or a power socket in your cladding, that's an entry point and that's where the 60 minutes might be, not the time which you can use as an ignition prevention.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I wonder even, perhaps drilling a hole through the wall could be, in a way, an entry.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yes, right, have you tested various scenarios like that Sensitivity to those openings?

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yeah, and so in the OPRA tech project so that's a project on the optimization of firefighting procedures, the optimization of firefighting procedures, where also the Institute for Fire and Disaster Prevention Heiratsberge and also the fire brigade Hamburg was involved we did experiments with several components and especially at these electrical installations or we could detect smoldering afterwards, and also, like you mentioned, a screw or something which is drilled afterwards into it might be a problem to the ignition prevention.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So ignition prevention is one point, but you also should then try to limit the smoldering itself, the spread, and to enable firefighting mechanisms, because you cannot totally exclude a smoldering itself, the spread, and to enable firefighting mechanisms, because you cannot totally exclude a smoldering.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay, now we're going to make the addition.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How do you do that?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How do you limit the smoldering in the wall?

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>First of all, you have your studs, which inside of a timber frame provide some prevention to a spread.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Of course it can also take over to another frame.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>We observed, especially in combination with OSP boards, that smoldering can also occur at these OSP materials and then that enables a spread from one frame to another.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>In general the smoldowing velocities are quite low, so inside of a component we have about 10 centimeters per hour.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>Of course depending on oxygen supply and the heat transfer mechanisms, but as a rule of thumb inside of a component we have 10 centimeters per hour.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>So it's quite a slow combustion.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>But still when we have undetected smoldering over several hours, that poses a risk not only to the separating function of a wall but also perhaps to the structure where I also can maybe recommend your episodes with smoldering of mass timber from Harry Mitchell or the timber column failure and the decay phase with Thomas Ganey and Jochen Sefus.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is this type of smoldering that you observe?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is this sufficient to trigger a smoldering in CLT, like you would say?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It can transition.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You said it transitions to OSP or the energies, or I don't even know how to define it.

00:21:56.063 --> 00:22:00.340
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm not sure if you can speak about ignition temperatures.

00:22:00.340 --> 00:22:06.423
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess there's some minimal energy that has to be to become an onset of smoldering in the CLT.

00:22:06.423 --> 00:22:10.981
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I wonder if smoldering in a bio-installation would have that.

00:22:11.849 --> 00:22:19.430
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yeah, so in experiments with components we observed that it can also affect, for example, a stud.

00:22:19.430 --> 00:22:32.439
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So usually you would and that's also a thing to consider usually you would stop a fire resistance test after, let's say, 60, 90 or 120 minutes and then you would end the test and that's it.

00:22:32.439 --> 00:22:37.823
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But in terms of smoldering, yeah, that's not the main issue.

00:22:37.823 --> 00:22:40.980
<v Patrick Sudhoff>It happens after our primary fire event.

00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:47.104
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So we observed after we put out some specimens out of the furnace.

00:22:47.104 --> 00:22:51.751
<v Patrick Sudhoff>We put out some specimens out of the furnace.

00:22:51.751 --> 00:23:01.032
<v Patrick Sudhoff>We observed then hours, six, eight hours later that the whole component was affected by the smoldering, and also stud between two frames can be affected.

00:23:01.032 --> 00:23:03.758
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So that can be an issue.

00:23:03.838 --> 00:23:05.201
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yes, With this test test.

00:23:05.201 --> 00:23:10.371
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is this referring to k2 uh fire resistance glass, or is it something different?

00:23:10.872 --> 00:23:21.094
<v Patrick Sudhoff>so yeah, there were k2 capsule criteria is a thing which is used for the building code, but I mean with the k2 criteria.

00:23:21.094 --> 00:23:27.982
<v Patrick Sudhoff>You would test it with not the insulation behind, but I think it's OSB or wood.

00:23:28.984 --> 00:23:29.365
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Or brook.

00:23:30.993 --> 00:23:41.450
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yes, so we are also doing experiments just with the insulation between the cladding or an ignition protection to give it a value.

00:23:41.450 --> 00:23:55.241
<v Patrick Sudhoff>The K2 criteria is used now in Germany to say something about the ignition and in the future we will also have more methods with the upcoming Eurocode, with the charring rate.

00:23:55.241 --> 00:24:00.461
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Charring rate or key char to estimate the ignition behind.

00:24:01.390 --> 00:24:03.598
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because K2, I think at a point you can have 180.

00:24:03.598 --> 00:24:08.304
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>, and you've mentioned earlier a nonsense of smold smoldering at 170.

00:24:08.304 --> 00:24:14.426
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So that's awfully close, even though it's just, like you know, a single point and perhaps end of the test and so on.

00:24:14.426 --> 00:24:22.171
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But but still I don't have this comfortable margin of safety that I would normally like in my uh fire resistance stuff.

00:24:22.211 --> 00:24:23.534
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Right yeah, right.

00:24:23.534 --> 00:24:36.962
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So when you want to be sure, then I would recommend for 60 minutes two times 18 millimeters, and yeah, otherwise then you would have to do some more performance based design.

00:24:36.962 --> 00:24:41.781
<v Patrick Sudhoff>That would be an alternative to use different setting types.

00:24:42.869 --> 00:24:49.281
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And did you observe any transition to flaming after some time, like when you've reached the end of the sample edge?

00:24:49.281 --> 00:24:50.844
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, actually yes.

00:24:51.411 --> 00:25:06.586
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So we did experiments, for example with the component at the 1x1 meter furnace with the Gibson plasterboard on the fire-exposed side and the MDF board on the unexposed side.

00:25:06.586 --> 00:25:16.470
<v Patrick Sudhoff>We just used 15 minutes of standard ISOCUR for the exposure, so we wanted to facilitate the smoldering inside.

00:25:16.470 --> 00:25:38.902
<v Patrick Sudhoff>And then we took out the samples, placed them aside and you could observe with the thermal imaging, but also with thermocouples, that with this spread of about 10 centimeters an hour, sometimes less, the smoldering front reaches, or reached after some time, the outer surface.

00:25:38.902 --> 00:25:53.221
<v Patrick Sudhoff>And then there was also smoldering of the MDF and after you had the hole burned through, there was enough air supply so that you have this smoldering to flaming transition phenomenon.

00:25:54.604 --> 00:25:55.105
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Interesting.

00:25:55.105 --> 00:25:59.869
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I wonder how that will scale to issues at the building scale.

00:25:59.869 --> 00:26:03.575
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, it's a difficult discussion.

00:26:03.575 --> 00:26:11.892
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know whether those phenomena are important, impactful or or not and I I I'm undecided yet.

00:26:11.892 --> 00:26:13.234
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I I don't know if.

00:26:13.234 --> 00:26:41.769
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If this is important at the building level, fire safety, or this is just a feature and we'll have to just live with that and accept that it happens, definitely must be a complication for firefighters to uh to investigate a scene after that, and I think the minimum required to use of materials like that is that the firefighters are informed that there actually is this type of material exhibiting this type of the behavior in your building.

00:26:41.769 --> 00:26:47.185
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Regarding those recordings, you just recorded the surface of that, or or you had to cut it to find it, or you can see that there's smoldering happening behind the surface of that.

00:26:47.185 --> 00:26:53.970
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Or you had to cut it to find it, or you can see that there's smoldering happening behind the surface board with some FLIR thermal camera easily.

00:26:54.550 --> 00:27:08.844
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yes, so we had FLIR thermal imaging on both sides of the component and additional thermocouples inside so you could really follow the smoldering from the exposed side to the unexposed side.

00:27:08.844 --> 00:27:21.884
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But I totally agree that we're testing in a quite small scale and it's a different thing when you have a building and a whole construction, not only a wall.

00:27:21.884 --> 00:27:41.801
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So I think we have to do more research in general on these materials, but also on these special phenomena like smoldering to flaming, because it's, in my opinion, still poorly understood what the critical conditions are for this transition.

00:27:42.270 --> 00:27:42.451
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This.

00:27:42.451 --> 00:28:02.362
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What you said is the part that kind of terrifies me, because you could have a fire onset of smoldering on one side of the wall and the smoldering transitioning into the other side of the wall where there can be a different compartment, different owner, you know, different person, and it could, like literally cross the boundaries between compartments.

00:28:02.362 --> 00:28:05.640
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think that feels very disturbing to me.

00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:10.221
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How about the production of like what was produced in those fires?

00:28:10.221 --> 00:28:12.276
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Are they very CO heavy?

00:28:12.276 --> 00:28:13.539
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Did you measure that?

00:28:14.412 --> 00:28:30.259
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So in general the smoldering fires are really incomplete combustion, so the oxidation is not very sufficient, so you have naturally a high CO, carbon monoxide release.

00:28:30.259 --> 00:28:44.057
<v Patrick Sudhoff>We measured it in the lab scale where we observed quite a high amount of CO, and also in the larger scale experiments.

00:28:44.057 --> 00:28:49.265
<v Patrick Sudhoff>We tried to measure the CO inside and outside of there.

00:28:49.265 --> 00:28:55.115
<v Patrick Sudhoff>I mean it was not easy to measure it in a smoldering compartment CO.

00:28:55.115 --> 00:29:21.761
<v Patrick Sudhoff>And we also know from different research that usually the cladding like a Gibson plasterboard or other OSB MDS boards that they have a high permeability or CO, so it can permeate through these materials very well.

00:29:21.761 --> 00:29:29.559
<v Patrick Sudhoff>However, if it is a problem in a real scenario, it's the same with the smoldering to flaming.

00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:44.082
<v Patrick Sudhoff>We would have to do more research on a real scale to see if CO really poses a risk, for example for people at the other side of the wall.

00:29:45.130 --> 00:29:48.621
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How generalizable are those conclusions or observations?

00:29:48.621 --> 00:29:53.342
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because at the start you mentioned there are so many types of biobased materials.

00:29:53.342 --> 00:30:01.461
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So perhaps let's reemphasize again what have you tested and let's try to think about how we can generalize them to other materials.

00:30:02.289 --> 00:30:19.643
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yeah, so in the more than just insulation research project, we focused on wood fiber, salinos, straw, hemp, jute and seaweed, and they all showed this tendency to continuously smoldering.

00:30:19.643 --> 00:30:27.163
<v Patrick Sudhoff>However, there were some differences, for example regarding the smoldering spread rate.

00:30:27.163 --> 00:30:40.056
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So you have differences between when you, for example, use the EN 16733 smoldering test stand, which is introduced in Germany, you have, let's say, 10 to 50 centimeters.

00:30:40.056 --> 00:30:48.462
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Besides different materials, however, they all showed more or less the smoldering behavior.

00:30:48.462 --> 00:31:00.541
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yeah, I think there's no perfect bio-based material, at least not without modifications where you can say okay, this material doesn't show this behavior.

00:31:01.049 --> 00:31:11.420
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I would expect that all like, say, bio-based insulation material is like kind of obvious that it would exhibit smoldering, Like you could expect that.

00:31:11.420 --> 00:31:23.059
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Of course, the cases are what's the temperature at which it starts, what's the CO production, what's the smoldering front velocity or however you define that.

00:31:23.059 --> 00:31:26.391
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But it's also like not gonna be a massive change.

00:31:26.391 --> 00:31:27.212
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think that would be.

00:31:27.212 --> 00:31:29.740
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There would be different drivers for the choice.

00:31:29.740 --> 00:31:36.221
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I don't think one would choose one material over another because it has higher smoldering onset temperature.

00:31:36.221 --> 00:31:42.021
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess there would be different economical and technical factors that would result in in your choice.

00:31:42.021 --> 00:31:44.623
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In your work you've also tried modeling that, or that was the the point In your work.

00:31:44.623 --> 00:31:51.061
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You've also tried modeling that, or that was the point of your work to create models that allow us to capture those behaviors.

00:31:51.061 --> 00:31:52.596
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Please tell me about the models a bit.

00:31:52.971 --> 00:31:53.171
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yes.

00:31:53.171 --> 00:31:59.384
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So part of my PhD thesis is modeling of the smoldering behavior.

00:31:59.384 --> 00:32:35.244
<v Patrick Sudhoff>And since we already talked about the complexity of this smoldering combustion, I think it's not enough just to do more and more tests, because we need to better understand the are, in the complexity, high enough to account for the transport and reaction mechanisms which will occur during a smoldering.

00:32:35.244 --> 00:32:58.896
<v Patrick Sudhoff>My objective was to propose a model which takes into account both transport mechanisms, so speaking of the flow, the convective flow, the heat transfer, but also moisture transport, and they have to be coupled with the reaction model which considers the swoldering combustion itself.

00:32:58.896 --> 00:33:11.343
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But of course, that are highly nonlinear mechanisms and it's not easy to have a model which can consider all these nonlinear mechanisms.

00:33:11.343 --> 00:33:13.778
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So there's still some work to do.

00:33:14.470 --> 00:33:15.574
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What was your basis?

00:33:15.574 --> 00:33:18.637
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like GPyro or you've developed your own model.

00:33:19.410 --> 00:33:49.417
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So the basis for the reaction model was models for bulk materials, so for example, stockpiles, because we did some research before at the Ottil von Gehrig University in Magdeburg and the idea was, if this is also a high-porose lignocellulosic material, like when you think about wood pellets, is there a huge difference to wood fibers, for example, or not?

00:33:49.417 --> 00:33:55.275
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Because the basic reaction mechanisms, basic transport mechanisms, should be the same.

00:33:55.275 --> 00:33:56.940
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So that was the basis.

00:33:56.940 --> 00:34:18.875
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But of course you have different properties and also in detail then a different chemical reaction or different kinetics which you have to consider, and I tried to implement this then in a in a console model to combine it with the transport model and this console model?

00:34:18.934 --> 00:34:26.965
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>do you connect it with, like cfd studies, or it's just a own model that just works on itself for now?

00:34:27.146 --> 00:34:30.375
<v Patrick Sudhoff>it's limited to the insulation itself.

00:34:30.375 --> 00:34:42.458
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So the idea would be to extend it and that would be also an aim here at the dvi to extend it to a full component or maybe a facade.

00:34:42.458 --> 00:34:52.659
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But then you have to consider the surrounding layers, for example the plaster layer or the plasterboard or the studs and so on.

00:34:52.659 --> 00:35:04.342
<v Patrick Sudhoff>And during the three years of research in this pure probit project, which was the basis for my phd, we achieved a model for the insulation itself.

00:35:04.342 --> 00:35:13.641
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But the complexity is so high that we need models for the surrounding layers with the comparable complexity.

00:35:13.641 --> 00:35:19.041
<v Patrick Sudhoff>And of course then you have at some point also convergence issues to deal with.

00:35:19.650 --> 00:35:30.469
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Of course it's challenging, but I think this is the interesting part because, as you said previously, even drilling a hole or putting a socket for your electricity changes.

00:35:31.371 --> 00:35:49.005
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So finding those critical locations which can be the onset of smoldering hotspot, which then can transition into propagation, and then again going back from the smoldering into flaming, I assume this would be also the pathways through which it can get out easier right?

00:35:49.005 --> 00:35:55.923
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So if you have double plasterboard, it's also going to be the weak spots in the world through which it will go back.

00:35:55.923 --> 00:36:08.679
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So to systematically study those, I think having a model that combines exterior, interior, the detailing would be a lot of fun and as a fellow modeler, I understand your struggles.

00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:13.561
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It sounds easy but it's a lot of work to get that rolling.

00:36:13.561 --> 00:36:15.094
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I sympathize with you.

00:36:15.094 --> 00:36:27.614
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope that you'll achieve it because it would be very, very interesting and, of course, given the diversity of the materials that you're dealing with, having a model tool would also be very interesting for sensitivity analysis.

00:36:27.614 --> 00:36:37.369
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Did you do any like modeling of the properties or figuring out the properties for modeling for those bi-based materials, based on some desktop studies perhaps?

00:36:37.871 --> 00:36:38.271
<v Patrick Sudhoff>yeah.

00:36:38.271 --> 00:36:44.635
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So the parametrization, the determination of the model parameters, was a big task.

00:36:44.635 --> 00:36:55.603
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So if you have this transport model, for example, you have to have material parameters such as the porosity, the permeability, for example.

00:36:55.603 --> 00:37:00.987
<v Patrick Sudhoff>And the interesting thing is for these materials it doesn't have to be isotropic.

00:37:00.987 --> 00:37:15.041
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So, for example, the permeability, when you think of a board, it's a double times the permeability perpendicular to the fiber, so then parallel to the fiber.

00:37:15.041 --> 00:37:30.579
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So the fiber direction, especially in boards, can influence not only the permeability but also, for example, the thermal conductivity, and so you have to measure then more than one direction.

00:37:30.579 --> 00:37:39.257
<v Patrick Sudhoff>And also for the model it can be important when you have an upward smoldering that your permeability will be much lower, so you have more convection in that side.

00:37:39.989 --> 00:37:40.411
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's interesting.

00:37:40.411 --> 00:37:42.701
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I wouldn't think that there would be a directional component to those properties, but very interesting.

00:37:42.701 --> 00:37:53.824
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I wouldn't think that there would be a directional component to those properties, but very interesting, yes, and besides that, then you have to consider the chemical mechanisms, the reaction scheme.

00:37:54.250 --> 00:38:01.195
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So we tried to figure out some basic reaction mechanisms or to reduce it to some which are necessary.

00:38:01.215 --> 00:38:12.184
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Reduce it to some which are necessary, because when you think about chemical reactions there are a gazillion different reactions happening in a real fire.

00:38:12.264 --> 00:38:19.074
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But you have to reduce the complexity to simplify it, otherwise you wouldn't have the chance.

00:38:19.094 --> 00:38:26.469
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So we tried to use the fact that the material shows a different behavior in inert atmosphere and in air atmosphere.

00:38:26.469 --> 00:38:42.275
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So, for example, in inert atmosphere you wouldn't have a self-sustaining smoldering because the heat generation would be neglectable and you wouldn't also have a fully degradation, would just have the pyrolysis in an inert atmosphere.

00:38:42.275 --> 00:38:58.679
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But then when you add oxygen in different amounts, you will have oxidative pyrolysis, you will have char oxidation and that changes also the pathway from a chemical point of view and we tried to distinguish it.

00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:21.123
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So we did lab experiments, not only thermogravimetric analyzers but also some hot storage, oven experiments, so with larger samples compared to TGA, where we also tried then to elaborate the difference between air and inert atmosphere and to take that into account for modeling.

00:39:21.123 --> 00:39:28.018
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Because in a real component or in the facade you won't have your ambient oxygen concentration.

00:39:28.018 --> 00:39:42.050
<v Patrick Sudhoff>You will consume oxygen, and so your reaction scheme will change over the time, and that's the thing your model should be able to consider to accurately predict the smoldering.

00:39:42.411 --> 00:39:43.597
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Did you have a chance to match it?

00:39:43.597 --> 00:39:51.057
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's actually quite an interesting point because, as you said, gypsum would be to some extent permeable, but perhaps you would have different materials.

00:39:51.057 --> 00:39:56.079
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Especially if we're talking about external facade, you probably want to have something not very permeable.

00:39:56.079 --> 00:40:01.530
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Have you measured those internal oxygen concentrations and the conditions at which the smoldering is happening?

00:40:01.530 --> 00:40:08.570
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Or this is just enclosed within the broad spectrum of the velocity of the smoldering is happening, or this is just enclosed within the broad spectrum of the velocity of the of the smoldering is just going to be slower.

00:40:09.371 --> 00:40:19.543
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So, for example, we did experiments in the controlled atmosphere cone calorimeter, where you can adjust your ambient oxygen concentration.

00:40:20.052 --> 00:40:22.869
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Ah, you have the expensive calorimeter Envy.

00:40:22.989 --> 00:40:46.885
<v Patrick Sudhoff>You have the expensive calorimeter NV, yeah right, so to say, and we figured out that with the lower oxygen concentration, as expected, the heat generation will also decrease and at about 10-12% the heat generated or the oxidation is nearly neglectable.

00:40:46.885 --> 00:40:52.342
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So you won't have enough energy to sustain smoldering below a certain point.

00:40:52.342 --> 00:40:59.563
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So from lab-scale experiments I would say about 12% oxygen as some kind of limit.

00:40:59.563 --> 00:41:01.815
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But yeah, of course that's better.

00:41:01.815 --> 00:41:22.523
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Lab-scale experiments and the situation in a real component, component or facade are much more complex and you have not only the permeation through the Gibson plasterboard you have, you will have joints somewhere, maybe cracks, and that's also what might be difficult to consider in simulations.

00:41:22.523 --> 00:41:48.195
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But yeah, we have to somehow try to simulate the fire behavior to get a better understanding of what happens inside the material, because during a small week we cannot look inside and the model helps us to better understand it, even though it might not replace a full scalescale test, but it helps to understand it better yeah, absolutely.

00:41:48.835 --> 00:42:04.757
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I fully, fully support that and I believe models can be very, very useful things to explore new technologies like there's especially, like so many different choices for those materials, so so many sources.

00:42:04.757 --> 00:42:19.402
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you can have a model, figure out some very fundamental baseline characteristics from a TGA, from cone, from a low oxygen cone fuel this to the model, observe if there are massive changes in the large scale behavior.

00:42:19.402 --> 00:42:21.135
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It gives conclusions.

00:42:21.135 --> 00:42:39.485
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And fire science is not about assigning a class you have to pass a test for that and there are laboratories for that and you're very welcome to use mine if you want but for just understanding the science behind and the safety, I think I'm highly supportive of efforts like yours developing models to help us with that.

00:42:39.931 --> 00:42:46.284
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>One thing we have not talked about are the legal barriers to use bio-based materials and bio-insulations.

00:42:46.284 --> 00:42:53.838
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perhaps you can tell me how does it look in Germany in terms of actually using this type of material, where this material would be used.

00:42:53.838 --> 00:42:58.635
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We talked that it can be used in walls, ceilings, facades, but in one type of buildings.

00:42:58.635 --> 00:43:04.934
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This actually is a technology that is promising, is a technology that is promising.

00:43:04.954 --> 00:43:17.782
<v Patrick Sudhoff>Yeah, so in general, we have a limitation in Germany for the usage of combustible and therefore also bio-based insulation materials to an upper floor height of 7 meters.

00:43:17.782 --> 00:43:35.344
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So that's where we are now, but we already have one federal country because we have different building codes inside Germany where we also have an extension to 13 meters upper floor height.

00:43:35.344 --> 00:43:52.902
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So, yeah, I think in the future the idea is to enable it for multi-story timber buildings, because we need them, we want to use them regarding lightweight construction, urban densification and so on.

00:43:52.902 --> 00:44:03.262
<v Patrick Sudhoff>But therefore we have to deal with the fire behavior, and I think it's possible if you consider certain points.

00:44:03.262 --> 00:44:31.000
<v Patrick Sudhoff>For example, we've talked about the ignition prevention, we have talked about the smoldering spread itself and some factors to limit it, and another important point is the firefighting techniques, so the fire brigade should be enabled to detect a smoldering and also to have the right tools to extinguish it, and then we can talk about also higher buildings.

00:44:31.889 --> 00:44:36.409
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>My feelings are that I'm not sure if it's necessary in higher buildings.

00:44:36.409 --> 00:44:52.902
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think if it's a technology that's truly supposed to change carbon footprint of the construction industry, that footprint is, you know, in the thousands of low-rise buildings, not in the Europe's tallest skyscraper.

00:44:52.902 --> 00:44:57.322
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And the same goes for structural timber and mass timber and CLT and everything.

00:44:57.322 --> 00:45:08.862
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you want to really change, if that's the true reason you're doing this, you don't have to build the tallest building with the bio-based insulated walls.

00:45:08.862 --> 00:45:16.976
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You need to run of a mill, simple, repetitive, boring buildings, building after building after building.

00:45:16.976 --> 00:45:24.454
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You're sequestrating tons of carbon, and that's the answer, and I guess legislation today allows to some extent for that.

00:45:24.454 --> 00:45:26.916
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And that's the answer, and I guess legislation today allows to some extent for that.

00:45:26.978 --> 00:45:28.259
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Seven meters sounds a little low.

00:45:28.259 --> 00:45:30.121
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>13 meters sounds like small residential units.

00:45:30.121 --> 00:45:33.826
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm not sure how exactly you could use those materials in Poland.

00:45:33.826 --> 00:45:44.038
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I didn't research that, but we also have requirements related to the combustibility of the external walls up to certain heights, so probably would also be limited.

00:45:44.038 --> 00:45:47.652
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Definitely something interesting to to observe.

00:45:47.652 --> 00:45:49.695
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So what are your next steps?

00:45:49.695 --> 00:45:54.570
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know you just landed at dbi, so you start to feel comfortable.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>And what's next in the dbi, how the research plan is looking yeah, the next steps would be to extend the work on the biobased insulation materials in general and also to continue working on the model.

00:46:10.942 --> 00:46:41.960
<v Patrick Sudhoff>So for now the applicability of the model is limited, but with DBI we want to propose, let's say, a tool which you can use for the risk assessment and, as you have mentioned, maybe not every building has to be built with biobased insulation materials, but at least the fire consultancy and the fire brigade and all the participants during the construction should be able to assess the risks properly.

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<v Patrick Sudhoff>And I think we need to do more research in general about that, to achieve the shield, to get the knowledge how this material really behaves, and then we can decide where we want to use it and under which conditions we can use it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fantastic.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay, thank you, patrick.

00:47:02.045 --> 00:47:06.739
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This was very, very interesting, looking forward to the future findings in the subject.

00:47:06.739 --> 00:47:08.896
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, thanks, it was a pleasure to be here.

00:47:25.590 --> 00:47:29.181
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Believe, episodes like this are exactly what the mission is supposed to be, that is, bringing you the fire science as it's being made worldwide.

00:47:29.181 --> 00:47:34.092
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>From this episode, my takeaways are that bio-based installations are out there.

00:47:34.092 --> 00:47:52.530
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They are perhaps a small share of the market yet, but I believe, given the sustainability revolution and the current market drivers, I can only think about their use growing over the years, which means the challenges that they bring will be growing over the years.

00:47:52.530 --> 00:47:59.161
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That is the smouldering combustion, of course, but also other things that Patrick mentioned in the interview.

00:47:59.161 --> 00:48:06.820
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So good to be up to date on the current state of art regarding fire safety of this type of insulation.

00:48:07.630 --> 00:48:19.481
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In the episode, we also went into some pretty decent modeling, pretty hardcore modeling, if you ask me Console modeling of pyrolysis, moldering, trying to apply that for a general model.

00:48:19.481 --> 00:48:38.922
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This is something that obviously I or you won't be able to use in practice very soon, but it's great to know that such models are under development and perhaps within the world where there is so much complexity related to the installation, so many choices, so many densities, so many materials, so many ways you can place it.

00:48:38.922 --> 00:48:45.123
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Having a modeling support will definitely help us design our buildings better.

00:48:45.123 --> 00:48:49.161
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So that would be it for today's 5 Science Show episode.

00:48:49.161 --> 00:48:57.481
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope you've enjoyed your weekly dose of fire science and if you need more well, there's an episode coming your way next Wednesday.

00:48:57.481 --> 00:48:59.978
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So just join me and let's do it again.

00:48:59.978 --> 00:49:01.213
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thanks for being here.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>See you, bye.