155 - New Guideline for PV Fire Safety with Grunde Jomaas

WEBVTT

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello and welcome to the FireScience Show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Whenever I post an episode on photovoltaics and new technologies in the sustainable world, those episodes get a lot of attention and they seem to be very appreciated by the audience.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So here I am with another episode of that kind.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's going to be about photovoltaics, and PVs are quite an interesting story.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Two years ago I had Jens in the podcast, who I thought cleared most of the misconceptions about PV panels, especially highlighting the role of the roof construction and treating them as a system.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Then, sometime later, I had Radar from Norway, who was talking about building integrated photovoltaics, also reemphasizing some of the same thoughts as Jens did.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So with all this information out there, why there would be misconceptions anymore.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And yet they are.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yet you see them every day on LinkedIn and around People not really getting what is the fire issue with the photovoltaic panels.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So here today let's try once again to clear the misconceptions around the fire safety of PV panels, and for that I've invited Professor Grunde Jumas from Frisbee.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's a part of ZAK in Slovenia.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Grunde is my good friend, we do some research together and, most importantly, we are figuring linkedin out together.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Since he's 10 times bigger than I am on linkedin, I refuse to call him anything else than grunders and say, but yeah, we're having a lot of fun there trying to get some good communications to the people.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And yes, communication, that's the point of today's episode.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I've invited Grunder to talk about PV not just because he has a decade of experience testing and experimenting with photovoltaics and the fire safety, not just because he's a great communicator, but his group, frisbee, has just released a brilliant piece of communication, a guideline on fire safety, photovoltaic panels on flat roofs, and this is the direct reason why we are here today.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We're going to discuss that guideline in depth, but you know not just what's written inside we're going to talk about.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Where did all of this come from?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What is the experimental background for all the claims that we discussed?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>From the book and also other guidelines that exist out there, because that's obvious, that it's not just the sole source of knowledge.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think this episode will be very beneficial if you have to deal with PV panels and if you don't, well, perhaps sometime in the future you will, so still worth listening.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's very good to listen to this episode having a PV in front of your eyes.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know many of you will be jogging or driving, so that's going to be harder, but if you have ability to open up the guideline and just look at the contents as we discuss them, I think it's going to be much better experience for you.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The link to the guideline is in the show notes and the podcast episode is right behind the intro.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's spin it up and jump episodes.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome to the Firesize Show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>My name is Vojtěch Vyngřínský and I will be your host.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello everybody, I'm here today with Professor Grunde Jumas from Frisbee Project in Slovenia.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello, grunde, hey, wojciech, good to see you, sensei, on the podcast.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Happy that you joined us.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And the topic is of great importance, that's the photovoltaics on flat roofs.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The direct reason is a guideline that your group has released something like a month ago.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Tomorrow there's a big webinar, from what I've heard, and I know there's a lot of interest on PV panels in the fire science community.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thanks for getting on this important subject, but what made you do the guidelines?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What was the inspiration to put the knowledge into a guideline actually?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, I guess the direct answer was, as you can read in the guideline, it came as a result of a meeting that was held in Brussels last year, hosted by NFPA, fm Global and Rockwool

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<v Grunde Jomaas>, where there was also released a document by the NFPA Research Foundation with the slides, some discussions from that meeting.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>But then we realized that we wanted to try to put out what is hopefully a clear communication on the topic.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And also the second part is that we can't escape this in a discussion between the two of us LinkedIn our friend and foe in a discussion between the two of us linked in our our friend and foe, I could see from a lot of debates there's a lot of things that people don't get that say that I take for granted some key concepts that we try to portray in the guideline, where people think that, oh, it's the bitumen that is the problem, or it's this specific membrane or it's this panel that is the problem.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so there was a lack of understanding of what one of the main messages in the guideline is that you have to think of it as a system, not just of the individual components or products involved it's funny that you say that, because I also had jens in the podcast like a hundred episodes ago, long time ago, and one of the most popular episodes of the Fire Science Show, jens was your PhD student.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He'd done his PhD on burning the PV panels, basically on different membranes, different settings and what you just said.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know, he kind of cleared that out right.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There's paper out of that, many papers out of that, there's his PhD thesis.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You could argue that the information is out there for anyone who is like a Google search away from that information.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yet people would still share the misconceptions.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yet people would still not seek it.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>We've been talking for some time about having a discussion on your podcast and I said, well, jens already told everything in in terms of pv on the podcast, I don't know.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And then you have radar, complement that with some slope proof and vipv and other things.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Then we decide, okay, now the guy and we have a an excuse, uh, to revisit it.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>But it also because the the number of times where I've copied jens's googleolar page and put it as an answer to people in questions on LinkedIn.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>I say just go here, the papers here are telling all of this.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Or, similarly, check out these papers by Raida, check out these people by the group in Malaysia and their references, of course, and so on.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>But it is amazing how many times you have to say some things.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And it's actually interesting because you say Jens is PhD, but Jens actually did also a master's on the topic at BTU that started, and before that we did an industry project and that started it all.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And I talked with another former student just some months ago where I said, oh, can I use this video?

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And he said, well, I don't know if it's really in the public domain, I have to check with some people.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>That probably don't work here, but it's almost 10 years ago and I said because I wanted to show it.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And he's like, yeah, the thing is he said we already had the answer at that point, we just didn't know it.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So you know, it just shows how it's a slow process for the messages to get out there and for people to get the details.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And of course there are many stakeholders that also don't necessarily want to have the debate, that want it to be communicated the way it is.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So they try to dilute the information pool a little bit.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And you know there's nothing wrong with that.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So to speak, everybody has the right to promote their own solutions, as long as they're safe, I guess.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Unless they're not fireballs.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Anyway, it's an interesting momentum.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>When I was entering the profession I was perhaps a little bit naive.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I thought that you need research, that this regulation.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But today I'm more aware that there's another step communicating the regulation or communicating the science.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's as important as having the science and regulations.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So and I say that because I first wanted to complement the guideline it's a great piece of communication and we will come back to this point many, many times.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So we know where it came from.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Tell me what it's about, what is in the scope and perhaps what important parts are not in the scope of this document.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So, just first and foremost, right now, you know, there's no names on the guideline.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>We had a bit of a discussion Should we have the names on of authors, but we felt that it's maybe it's better just to have Zag Frisbee as an entity instead of specific names, given that it's a guideline.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>But the authors, the main authors, are Nick Russ, alessi Huguet and myself that have been writing this and, with all due respect to a lot of it comes from compiling existing information and this is one of the main.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>You know, I guess we had the three maybe main goal of the guideline.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>One was it shouldn't be too long, it should be so people will actually read it.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>There are other guidelines that are very good.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>I'm not criticizing them, but we know that people just put them in the drawer because they're too specific, they're too long, too many recommendations, and so we wanted an overview guideline, not an installation guideline.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>It's not an installation guideline.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>We wanted it to be well documented.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Hence you can see we have two pages of small font references with links and we wanted it to create an overview, holistic overview that touches from sort of like the start.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So hence we have the figure where we talk about the ignition hazards, the fire dynamics, the roof construction and the firefighting operations.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And then we go.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>We try to be sort of pedagogical about talking about these four aspects.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And the scope, if I assume correctly, is for flat roofs.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's one point.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's for PV panels that are placed on the roof, so not as a part of the roof, and also for fire hazards that would start mainly in the installations or in its vicinity, not as a part of the building fire that eventually spread to roof right yeah, so so that's why you know we start.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Of course, you know, in the guideline we do have a table of contents.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Then we we have the summary and then the scope and, as you said, the scope.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>We do have a figure where we explain that you have a fire that can start inside the building and go to the roof and you have a fire that starts on the roof, and predominantly we focus on the ones starting on the roof, because the ones that start in the building technically should be dealt with already through building regulation on the roof, because the ones that start in the building technically should be dealt with already through building regulation.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>That is of course, not always the case, but then you can't always then see.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>You know, it's important also to not blame solar or blame things for things that are are not part of the root cause.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>But at the same time, the frontispiece is a picture from the Asko distribution center in Norway and that fire started inside the building and it spread to the roof and because the fire section walls didn't extend up through the wall, it spread along the wall and then into another fire section, so it became a very big fire.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So that is a route and that's where, of course, the PV panels played a significant role, because in other circumstances the energy would just be vented up and you wouldn't have spread across the route.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>But then we do focus on this new ignition source, this new system on the roof that can lead to fire scenarios there.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And yes, we don't talk about building integrated pv vip, it is building applied photovoltaics.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And when you say flat roofs, some people ask me recently oh, is there a big difference with slope roof?

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<v Grunde Jomaas>There are some many similarities, so it's not like that's a whole new chapter to do.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>You can actually see some of the work that's been done by Rise Fire Research in Norway.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>We mentioned Reidar.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>One thing with the slow proof for example, they did some testing with bitumen was that then you had the flowing of the bitumen, but as a system.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>They've also published, I think, some things in PV Magazine and some other places where the whole thing with the critical gaps, the ignition, the spreading and so on are on a membrane that otherwise doesn't lead to power spread are very similar.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>But there are some nuances.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, you have to put the frame somewhere, I guess.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess this is how you framed it and that's absolutely fine.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's try to get into the contents of the guide.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You said it has four specific, not chapters, but areas that it covers the ignition itself, the dynamics, the roof construction and then the firefighting.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So perhaps let's use this framework also in this discussion.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's start with the ignition hazards.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's start with the ignition hazards.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you've been a part of a team that was investigating the probabilities or the statistics of rooftop fires, so let's perhaps start with that how often those fires happen and how did you figure out a number?

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So that was a study that we Jens again as a PhD student and myself got involved with.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Jens is such a star.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>He's a star.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>I quote him.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>He said at some point during his PhD that I'm a one trick pony, but it's a very, very good trick and it's shown.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>You know, to some extent we've been lucky that it was very timely and we started way back when I was at DTU 2015, 14, almost.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>There's been 10 years of doing some of this and it's not that we were groundbreaking in that sense, because you have the work done by Backstrom and UL and things going back.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Also, you can see some of the reference we have to Cancellary and SM Global's documents.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>But anyway, so we did this work with a group from Malaysia you know Saputria, and it's difficult to get good numbers.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Yeah, Because a lot of it's based on media reports and does big graze salts, because what's reported in media is maybe just big fires.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Nobody will report a small house fire and so on, but they're, you know they're.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>What we ended up with in that paper was to say that to a reasonable extent, we said 29 fires per gigawatt per year, per gigawatt installed.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And some people say, oh, you know how much is this.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And, yeah, what does the number mean?

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Actually, possibility?

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Somebody said you know, there was uh, this a few years ago, the fire at uh in bristol that we are the curious museum and somebody going to oh, it's a freak incident, it's only 0.01 chance of a fire.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And then somebody in the comments said well, there's about I about I don't know like 2 million solar installations in the UK.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So if you multiply that up, that means that you should have about 200 fires per year, which corresponds quite well to the fire service saying that there are several times a week are called out to PV fires.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So it is not a small problem because in risk theory you often want to go to 10 to the minus 6, not to 10 to the minus 4, which is 0.01%.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So it is actually a significant problem in many risk aspects and this is what we also see.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>You know there's a figure there that we took from the Clean Energy Associates, where they had inspected 600 sites worldwide and I think they came with something like 96% of these places had some mistakes and we've shown.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>You know the 10 main things related to grounding issues, damage module, cross-mated connectors, the list.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>You know there's 10 main issues.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>All of them are as high as 50% and more than 20%.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>So combined there's a big, very big chance.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>And people ask you know, but why?

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<v Grunde Jomaas>You know, you know, you just have to do it right.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>But if you think about it, some of these things have 2000, 3000, 4000 panels on a roof, maybe even more.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>You know more than that and imagine the labor to put all of that together, that all those operations, all those connections, that there's not a faulty connection, that there's no poor workmanship or poor maintenance in all of this.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I was about to ask, and the statistics take where into account, like because we will have a freshly new installations, which I would hope that they are absolutely perfect because they have just been built and commissioned, but you may also have like 10 years old installations that went through many harsh wind events, through many hailstorms, through many thunderstorms.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>I've heard, I mean information, read the information.

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<v Grunde Jomaas>Installations that are maybe a few years old and when there was a fire and people looked at it then they could see, you know if there was a poor cable quality that had been used, that there's already been quite weathered, discolorations of cables and weakening.

00:18:42.710 --> 00:18:47.250
<v Grunde Jomaas>That's if things haven't been installed well.

00:18:47.250 --> 00:18:52.651
<v Grunde Jomaas>You have movements due to wind, snow, load, things like this that can create a strain.

00:18:52.651 --> 00:18:57.907
<v Grunde Jomaas>So there, you know the main, there is a too high of a probability right now.

00:18:57.907 --> 00:19:11.651
<v Grunde Jomaas>So this, this is what we also go all to do, this nfpa 550, fire concepts 3, where we say we need to work on the consequence, we need to work on and on the probability frequency of the fires.

00:19:11.651 --> 00:19:18.230
<v Grunde Jomaas>So the frequency, you know, this is the ignition and aspects of that and that is too high.

00:19:18.309 --> 00:19:22.023
<v Grunde Jomaas>But we in the guideline we tone that down there.

00:19:22.023 --> 00:19:26.840
<v Grunde Jomaas>That's done a lot elsewhere and I'm also no electrical engineer, so.

00:19:26.840 --> 00:19:38.237
<v Grunde Jomaas>So the details of all of these things we defer to other places where people look there are german, you know, from vds and also from fire protection association.

00:19:38.237 --> 00:19:44.912
<v Grunde Jomaas>They have long things with pictures of all kinds of installations and all kinds of faults and errors people can do.

00:19:44.912 --> 00:19:55.330
<v Grunde Jomaas>And if we were going into that detail, I think we would lose the overview, the holistic part, which is the main aspect for us.

00:19:56.185 --> 00:19:59.469
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>One thing that I wonder how easy is it actually to ignite a PV panel?

00:19:59.469 --> 00:20:05.964
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like to ignite that the fire is is to some extent growing on that panel Like any DCc fold.

00:20:05.964 --> 00:20:09.144
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Any arc is is enough to to set it ablaze.

00:20:09.705 --> 00:20:13.621
<v Grunde Jomaas>So this is important here, you know we're not igniting the panel.

00:20:13.621 --> 00:20:17.347
<v Grunde Jomaas>Ah, what is burning is normally what's below the panel.

00:20:17.347 --> 00:20:31.306
<v Grunde Jomaas>Yes, some of the panels you know you have classes of panels but a lot of people say, oh well, this is because you use this bad panel and you're not using glass, glass panel or this panel.

00:20:31.306 --> 00:20:50.931
<v Grunde Jomaas>But in most of the work jens did, we used even a metal plate and and we even in the experiment I mean where the first, very first approximation experiments I did back in den Denmark 10 years ago or so we actually just used some glass wool and we saw the same thing.

00:20:50.931 --> 00:21:04.628
<v Grunde Jomaas>Hence my former students said we knew the answer that it wasn't the panel that was the problem, it's the system, it's this Physics is the problem, the physics, the fire dynamics is the problem.

00:21:04.628 --> 00:21:07.406
<v Grunde Jomaas>So well, so we knew.

00:21:07.406 --> 00:21:12.569
<v Grunde Jomaas>So that's what we chased and that's what ended up with all these very nice papers.

00:21:12.569 --> 00:21:23.690
<v Grunde Jomaas>Also we have to commend he worked with some very good students Ben Jacobs, farah from IMFSC, where they were doing their master's theses.

00:21:23.690 --> 00:21:32.392
<v Grunde Jomaas>Working with Jens, we also had Ming Chang from also I'm a C student who recently completed his PhD now at Ghent University.

00:21:32.392 --> 00:21:35.644
<v Grunde Jomaas>So so we had also other people in in that work.

00:21:35.644 --> 00:21:39.070
<v Grunde Jomaas>Just to highlight that that contributed to the knowledge.

00:21:39.070 --> 00:21:40.784
<v Grunde Jomaas>But that's, you know, the focus.

00:21:40.784 --> 00:21:42.029
<v Grunde Jomaas>There was the fire dynamics.

00:21:42.029 --> 00:21:47.180
<v Grunde Jomaas>So if you move into, you know in the guideline, from the ignition where, yes, we, I think what the ignition, where, yes, we're igniting.

00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:53.673
<v Grunde Jomaas>What we're igniting is typically we're igniting the membrane in the experiments we do with CRIB.

00:21:53.673 --> 00:21:58.073
<v Grunde Jomaas>But some people have been, oh, why aren't you not using an arc?

00:21:58.073 --> 00:22:00.880
<v Grunde Jomaas>And the reason we're not using an arc?

00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.667
<v Grunde Jomaas>We have actually done the arc and gotten the same results.

00:22:04.667 --> 00:22:08.665
<v Grunde Jomaas>The wood curve is more repeatable and we get the same end result.

00:22:08.665 --> 00:22:16.749
<v Grunde Jomaas>And also, of course, working with high currents and voltages can imply some other risk assessments in a lab environment.

00:22:16.749 --> 00:22:28.067
<v Grunde Jomaas>And finally, we can see that when people say, oh, but are you sure you're not making it too big, well, empirically we see the fires on the roofs that we see in media.

00:22:28.067 --> 00:22:41.864
<v Grunde Jomaas>So whatever ignited them led to spread to a thousand panels, two thousand panels, so that we are spreading from one panel to another, is empirically shown time and time over in those rooftop fires.

00:22:41.864 --> 00:22:52.442
<v Grunde Jomaas>So we're not making an overly big crib, we're actually quite a small that ignites the membrane, creates this feedback system that is again shown with these nice figures.

00:22:52.595 --> 00:22:57.123
<v Grunde Jomaas>I, you know we have them recreated here, but they're figures made by Jens in his PhD.

00:22:57.123 --> 00:23:00.805
<v Grunde Jomaas>Again, the whole guideline, as you can see, is type sense.

00:23:00.805 --> 00:23:02.102
<v Grunde Jomaas>So all the figures.

00:23:02.102 --> 00:23:12.077
<v Grunde Jomaas>We have references to many other places where we've done it, but we wanted the uniform expression instead of copy and pasting and then using other figures.

00:23:12.077 --> 00:23:23.097
<v Grunde Jomaas>And it's the first time I've done that in the sense to have the luxury of working with the typesetter and getting everything uniform, because I, you know, I'm terrible with graphics myself.

00:23:23.097 --> 00:23:30.082
<v Grunde Jomaas>But so, instead of having this is the figure from this and it looks completely different than the figure from Canceleri.

00:23:30.082 --> 00:23:32.804
<v Grunde Jomaas>And here's the figure from Clean Energy Associates.

00:23:32.804 --> 00:23:34.623
<v Grunde Jomaas>And here's the figure from BRE.

00:23:34.623 --> 00:23:35.941
<v Grunde Jomaas>And here's the figure from there.

00:23:35.941 --> 00:23:40.946
<v Grunde Jomaas>We have the benefit of working with a very good typesetter that put this all together.

00:23:41.455 --> 00:23:46.500
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hence my comment on the good communication in the guide from the start, because it looks like it's done purposefully.

00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:49.523
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So yeah, but let's go, let's go back to physics.

00:23:49.743 --> 00:23:51.417
<v Grunde Jomaas>Yeah, so then you know we ignite it.

00:23:51.417 --> 00:23:52.019
<v Grunde Jomaas>But you know.

00:23:52.019 --> 00:24:20.701
<v Grunde Jomaas>So we look at this figure in the guideline, figure six, where, if you do a woodgrip, so that you know, let's backtrack a bit when you build a roof you have some insulation typically, and then you have a roofing membrane and before PVs were put on roofs and European Commission told us that we need to put them on the roof, or you know, there's not just the European Commission saying many people want to do it because energy prices are costing an arm and a leg, as they say.

00:24:20.701 --> 00:24:31.944
<v Grunde Jomaas>So the tests have been done, that the roofing membranes, if you have a burning brand, if you have a small fire attack, they shouldn't spread the fire across there.

00:24:31.944 --> 00:24:36.747
<v Grunde Jomaas>So you have these roof tests with the T1, t2, t3, t4.

00:24:36.747 --> 00:24:41.266
<v Grunde Jomaas>Commonly, if you pass T2, you will also pass all the other ones.

00:24:41.266 --> 00:24:43.442
<v Grunde Jomaas>It's the one that's most stringent in that.

00:24:43.442 --> 00:24:48.292
<v Grunde Jomaas>So we show this that, yeah, we use the membrane, we use the builder.

00:24:48.313 --> 00:24:53.724
<v Grunde Jomaas>With a crib it doesn't show, but then you put the panel above it and then they have an edge.

00:24:53.724 --> 00:24:55.502
<v Grunde Jomaas>So you gather some small.

00:24:55.502 --> 00:25:01.900
<v Grunde Jomaas>There may be a little bit of combustible material on the panel, but you get the heat feedback.

00:25:01.900 --> 00:25:06.001
<v Grunde Jomaas>You get re-radiation you on the panel, but you get the heat feedback.

00:25:06.001 --> 00:25:06.424
<v Grunde Jomaas>You get re-radiation.

00:25:06.424 --> 00:25:07.755
<v Grunde Jomaas>You have a flame that extends also up against a slow panel.

00:25:07.755 --> 00:25:13.606
<v Grunde Jomaas>So you get a bigger flame area, a bigger radiating area, and that preheats the membrane.

00:25:13.606 --> 00:25:20.429
<v Grunde Jomaas>That is then releasing enough paralysis gases that you can have a thermal runaway.

00:25:20.429 --> 00:25:24.727
<v Grunde Jomaas>You have a progressive set of ignitions, which is fire spread.

00:25:25.375 --> 00:25:31.820
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>One thing to clarify, because I guess not every fire science listener is an expert on the roof construction.

00:25:31.820 --> 00:25:36.010
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The membrane, the uppermost layer of the roof, is usually combustible.

00:25:36.010 --> 00:25:36.914
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Right, that's over.

00:25:37.055 --> 00:25:38.757
<v Grunde Jomaas>So the membranes will pass the B roof test, which is a horizontal test.

00:25:38.757 --> 00:25:43.541
<v Grunde Jomaas>The membranes will pass the B roof test, which is a horizontal test.

00:25:43.541 --> 00:26:01.500
<v Grunde Jomaas>But if you test it vertically, as you would do in EN 13501 reaction to fire tests, you will test it vertically and these tests will then be classified typically as an E, you know, a flammable material.

00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:09.502
<v Grunde Jomaas>Yeah, so there's no, there's no surprise that they burn per se, but they're constructed that when they're put flat they don't spread flame.

00:26:09.502 --> 00:26:17.385
<v Grunde Jomaas>I think similar with carpets if you put the car particularly and ignite it at the bottom, many of those would burn.

00:26:17.385 --> 00:26:21.361
<v Grunde Jomaas>That don't really spread the fire while lying flat on the on.

00:26:21.642 --> 00:26:53.707
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's really interesting because you're taking, like technically, a solution that's certified, that's fit for the purpose the flame would not spread on that surface if it was just the roof and then you kind of change the setting, you know, because suddenly you put something over it which is also perhaps certified, perhaps even non-combustible If you and the ends have put a bunch of steel and then the wool on top of that, which is non-combustible by definition, and suddenly your B-roof approved membrane becomes a hazard.

00:26:53.707 --> 00:27:04.766
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Precisely say that the intended use of that membrane has changed, because it was intended to use in an open air and now it's used under a roof as a part of a mini compartment.

00:27:04.766 --> 00:27:06.978
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>To be honest, exactly so.

00:27:07.019 --> 00:27:23.904
<v Grunde Jomaas>This is one of the main technical messages that we try to portray in the guideline is that because we change the fire dynamics, then we need to revisit the roof construction, because the ignition wasn't used to be a problem but now it is.

00:27:23.904 --> 00:27:25.663
<v Grunde Jomaas>So it leads to a change for aerodynamics.

00:27:25.663 --> 00:27:31.681
<v Grunde Jomaas>Hence we need to go to a roof construction and eventually maybe also have different firefighting provisions.

00:27:31.681 --> 00:27:40.105
<v Grunde Jomaas>But so when we go there it is a key point that you're saying that I don't think you know in that sense that a membrane is a culprit.

00:27:40.105 --> 00:27:41.657
<v Grunde Jomaas>It's not a panel, that's a go.

00:27:41.657 --> 00:27:42.902
<v Grunde Jomaas>I said that before.

00:27:43.001 --> 00:27:47.221
<v Grunde Jomaas>It's important to point out that it's not this or that or this, it's a system.

00:27:47.221 --> 00:27:49.445
<v Grunde Jomaas>We just changed the rules of the game.

00:27:49.445 --> 00:27:52.578
<v Grunde Jomaas>Take a, you know french open is going on.

00:27:52.578 --> 00:28:07.701
<v Grunde Jomaas>If we all of a sudden change the height of the net or the length of the of the playing field, or if we say shorten it even more, so they would miss the field all the time because they're programmed to hit this and that's sort of the same.

00:28:07.701 --> 00:28:15.664
<v Grunde Jomaas>It's not something you can say blame them for, and that's because you can see also in if we go to figure seven.

00:28:15.664 --> 00:28:17.608
<v Grunde Jomaas>But those are from experiments.

00:28:17.608 --> 00:28:36.325
<v Grunde Jomaas>We also did part of jens's master's thesis, actually, and others have done the same to show that if you spread under the panel, but when you get to the edge, it doesn't spread, because this was the target that the membrane was set up to test for.

00:28:36.855 --> 00:28:48.763
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So once you're again underneath the clean sky and not having this radiation from the panel, the conditions are back to normal for the membrane because that that's what they were doing.

00:28:49.084 --> 00:29:03.584
<v Grunde Jomaas>So that's why we're saying you know that it's important to look at the system level of thing, because when we look at the ignition, we look at the components, we test the components, we test the, but a lot of that is not tested from fire.

00:29:03.584 --> 00:29:14.788
<v Grunde Jomaas>I mean, they're tested from fire safety or maybe not creating an arc or having some flame retardant in the cables and a small amount of combustible in the panel.

00:29:14.788 --> 00:29:25.934
<v Grunde Jomaas>But all of that, this is Senelec, this is electric regulation, and now we bring that in and go into the roof regulation.

00:29:25.934 --> 00:29:26.977
<v Grunde Jomaas>And now we bring that in and going to the roof.

00:29:26.977 --> 00:29:35.739
<v Grunde Jomaas>And a point that somebody is smart pointed out is now that we are requiring or are required in the eu to put pv systems on the roof, shouldn't we then have a test?

00:29:35.739 --> 00:29:41.416
<v Grunde Jomaas>Shouldn't we then have some regulations that include this as a part of the building?

00:29:41.416 --> 00:29:42.579
<v Grunde Jomaas>And there you go.

00:29:42.579 --> 00:29:50.284
<v Grunde Jomaas>And it's interesting because the BIPV, the building integrated, is a construction product and that's tested according to European standards.

00:29:50.284 --> 00:29:56.339
<v Grunde Jomaas>But for the system we're in now because it's building applied and where it gets.

00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:00.221
<v Grunde Jomaas>Then you said sloped roofs or even flat roof.

00:30:00.221 --> 00:30:15.662
<v Grunde Jomaas>If you were to do a building integrated photovoltaic on a flat roof, you would have to test it according to construction product regulations, you know, according to a building product, but if you lift it up a little bit, you go there by.

00:30:15.662 --> 00:30:15.942
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know.

00:30:15.942 --> 00:30:18.406
<v Grunde Jomaas>Similar with facades or a piece of oh, it's a rain screen.

00:30:18.406 --> 00:30:20.618
<v Grunde Jomaas>It's not part of the building, so it's like one of these.

00:30:20.618 --> 00:30:22.124
<v Grunde Jomaas>We know this is a problem.

00:30:22.124 --> 00:30:24.182
<v Grunde Jomaas>We've seen it in so many places before.

00:30:24.182 --> 00:30:26.242
<v Grunde Jomaas>The tests are not testing what they should.

00:30:26.242 --> 00:30:28.142
<v Grunde Jomaas>The test is currently wrong.

00:30:28.142 --> 00:30:30.060
<v Grunde Jomaas>We need to do something about it.

00:30:31.097 --> 00:30:54.115
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>When we get to the edge of discussions on why one should not put a green facade on their building, because we find it's kind of hazardous in the setting they want to, and if they don't take the argumentation but really want to do it, the discussion ends up on please define the wall, you know, because this is not the wall, this is a decoration I put on the wall.

00:30:54.476 --> 00:30:57.103
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The wall is fire resistant and meets all the regulation.

00:30:57.103 --> 00:30:58.145
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not spreading the fire.

00:30:58.145 --> 00:31:03.723
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And then I just put a few plants on top of that, like there is no law that forbids me to decorate my wall.

00:31:03.723 --> 00:31:13.384
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And this is kind of annoying because again, the same case as something that's certified for intended use, suddenly the use changes by the user.

00:31:13.384 --> 00:31:40.405
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>One thing if you mentioned the fire spread on the PV arrays, when you mean PV array you don't mean like one bay of PV panels, you mean the entirety of the roof that's discovered by PV panels, because the fire can jump between the smaller arrays, right that's also something when we get to say then the roof construction, or you know chapter three here, we know flat roof construction with PV systems, construction with PV systems.

00:31:40.747 --> 00:31:42.548
<v Grunde Jomaas>We talk about two things.

00:31:42.548 --> 00:31:54.103
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know you have retrofits, which is by far the most common, because we're not going to rebuild all of Europe because we have PV systems, we're going to use the roofs we have.

00:31:54.103 --> 00:32:00.519
<v Grunde Jomaas>But for new buildings it is somewhat easier because then you know we can build from scratch.

00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:01.078
<v Grunde Jomaas>It's the same.

00:32:01.078 --> 00:32:03.362
<v Grunde Jomaas>It's the same as for facades.

00:32:03.362 --> 00:32:14.006
<v Grunde Jomaas>When we renovate them, then we're dealing with some of the constraints of the past, potential errors of the past, and so you don't want to go into the facade.

00:32:14.006 --> 00:32:20.259
<v Grunde Jomaas>But then when you look at an array, an array is a set of panels and on the roof we have it.

00:32:20.380 --> 00:32:25.654
<v Grunde Jomaas>Even in table, two different insurance companies and guidelines.

00:32:25.654 --> 00:32:30.826
<v Grunde Jomaas>They say, oh, it should be 40 by 40, 45 by 45 is the max.

00:32:30.826 --> 00:32:34.945
<v Grunde Jomaas>And then you have to also have a separation between these.

00:32:34.945 --> 00:32:39.026
<v Grunde Jomaas>The separations are one or 1.2, two meters.

00:32:39.026 --> 00:32:51.134
<v Grunde Jomaas>But the reason fires show that those separation, separation distances, the way we build, are too small, because the fire spread, it gets big enough that it just sort of blows by like in a wildfire.

00:32:51.134 --> 00:32:57.778
<v Grunde Jomaas>You have a too small of a fire gate and then it just jumps across or there's a burning brand or whatever that's going.

00:32:58.057 --> 00:33:11.621
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>you have some wind and it just goes by that our gate I really wanted to ask you about that because you summarized the requirement of those other guidances and they see a separation between the arrays of 1.2 meter, 1 meter, 2 meters.

00:33:11.621 --> 00:33:21.700
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It feels like more like an access gap, you know, a space of sufficiency so that a person with a set of tools can walk between them.

00:33:21.700 --> 00:33:26.205
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It doesn't feel like something that would do a big difference in a fire intuitively.

00:33:26.205 --> 00:33:34.065
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And seeing the fires, the images of the fires on the rooftops, you can see those flames extend for many meters.

00:33:34.065 --> 00:33:43.855
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There's one guy down in BDS that gives you more than five meters and that sounds more like a fire meant separation between the arrays, exactly so.

00:33:44.036 --> 00:33:51.669
<v Grunde Jomaas>I think that's a research gap right now is to establish these distances or ways to do.

00:33:51.669 --> 00:33:59.729
<v Grunde Jomaas>Is it enough if you do a different type of covering there or do you put some sort of separation?

00:33:59.729 --> 00:34:02.301
<v Grunde Jomaas>But of course, as you point out, if you start building separations there, do you lose part of this.

00:34:02.301 --> 00:34:06.498
<v Grunde Jomaas>But of course, as you point out, if you start building separations there, do you lose part of this thing of.

00:34:06.498 --> 00:34:13.061
<v Grunde Jomaas>Well, I wanted to run a pallet there when I'm installing it and I have thousands of panel.

00:34:13.061 --> 00:34:21.501
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know, people are obviously operate with pallets and pallet trucks, or quite often at least, because they don't want to carry them one by one from the edge.

00:34:21.501 --> 00:34:26.329
<v Grunde Jomaas>So it becomes a practical manner too of how you build it up and maintenance.

00:34:26.329 --> 00:34:33.688
<v Grunde Jomaas>Well, if you have countries where you have snow load or other things, you want to be able to navigate between them.

00:34:33.688 --> 00:34:34.981
<v Grunde Jomaas>So I think you're right.

00:34:34.981 --> 00:34:38.244
<v Grunde Jomaas>The main driver for this has been to have some distance.

00:34:38.244 --> 00:34:47.809
<v Grunde Jomaas>But you can see that the VDS or CDS from Germany 2234, they say more than five meter.

00:34:48.394 --> 00:34:54.967
<v Grunde Jomaas>I think we didn't put the asterisk, or I think they have the asterisk, that it or engineering solution or something.

00:34:54.967 --> 00:35:05.864
<v Grunde Jomaas>If they could prove and then the size of the arrays, so you can see, are typically around 40 by 40 meters, and this is related to spraying distances for hoses.

00:35:05.864 --> 00:35:07.817
<v Grunde Jomaas>Okay, there there's.

00:35:07.817 --> 00:35:10.744
<v Grunde Jomaas>Actually was a fire not too long ago in the U S.

00:35:10.744 --> 00:35:27.083
<v Grunde Jomaas>To show this completely the the roof was covered all the way to the edge and, all you know, on three sides and the firefighters can only enter the roof from one side and then they're almost like they're on their phone because they're like we can't reach that and we can't.

00:35:27.083 --> 00:35:28.856
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know the burn, the roof has burned.

00:35:28.856 --> 00:35:30.101
<v Grunde Jomaas>We can't walk across it.

00:35:30.101 --> 00:35:32.934
<v Grunde Jomaas>We don't know the structural stability of the roof at this point.

00:35:33.336 --> 00:35:42.724
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So they were spraying there and they reached maybe a third of the distance and it's kind of funny because you perhaps should, or they perhaps should, approach it more like an oil tank.

00:35:42.724 --> 00:35:56.585
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know where they have to drop the foam for a very, very long distance and they actually can do that, but it requires completely different equipment than from what you have you would have been using on a building firefighting.

00:35:57.936 --> 00:36:03.666
<v Grunde Jomaas>On the frontispiece again, the fire at the asco distribution center in norway.

00:36:03.666 --> 00:36:11.286
<v Grunde Jomaas>They use helicopters with the wildfire helicopters and dropping the big bags of water on it.

00:36:11.286 --> 00:36:14.478
<v Grunde Jomaas>Eventually, again, because there is a spread between fire.

00:36:14.478 --> 00:36:20.862
<v Grunde Jomaas>This was a big building fire, not just on the roof, they were inside the warehouse in in two big section.

00:36:20.862 --> 00:36:25.699
<v Grunde Jomaas>I think it was something like nine, nine thousand square meters involved in the fire.

00:36:25.699 --> 00:36:37.456
<v Grunde Jomaas>So they actually you, yeah approach it in in a different way there you probably can throw a fireball much further than water and perhaps I see you want to go to the fireballs.

00:36:37.637 --> 00:36:41.324
<v Grunde Jomaas>I'm not, I'm sure, not sure we're ready about it, but they are.

00:36:41.324 --> 00:36:46.217
<v Grunde Jomaas>They're quite quite something, quite something exactly, exactly, um.

00:36:46.518 --> 00:36:47.199
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>is there any?

00:36:47.199 --> 00:37:00.679
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know it's not in the, in the guidance, but is there any work, perhaps that you know, on using some fixed firefighting equipment in the vicinity like any type of extinguishing application?

00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:02.724
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perhaps water curtains will work?

00:37:03.244 --> 00:37:15.163
<v Grunde Jomaas>So there are now, as you see in the guideline, we talk about the roof construction and we get into quite much about the choice of what we call a mitigation layer.

00:37:15.163 --> 00:37:31.625
<v Grunde Jomaas>If you have a highly combustible I'm going to throw it out there you know a lot of the roofs have EPS and we have shown quite clearly that because of the change scenario with the buildup, that you will ignite the EPS in that situation.

00:37:31.625 --> 00:37:33.976
<v Grunde Jomaas>So you need a mitigation and that could be.

00:37:33.976 --> 00:37:37.126
<v Grunde Jomaas>There's many options for the mitigation layer.

00:37:37.126 --> 00:37:48.847
<v Grunde Jomaas>There's non-combustible, there's even hard roof, there's even you know, you can do metal plates, you could do insulation types, you can do different thicknesses of insulations that you, uh, you can do.

00:37:48.847 --> 00:37:50.378
<v Grunde Jomaas>You could do gypsum boards.

00:37:51.059 --> 00:38:03.190
<v Grunde Jomaas>In the end, there's many other constraints that will also play in for that, because I've heard a number, like in the uk, that there's 30 percent of the existing roof that can't even afford the weight of a glass, glass panel.

00:38:03.190 --> 00:38:06.201
<v Grunde Jomaas>Okay, that's, they're so lightweight construction.

00:38:06.201 --> 00:38:07.824
<v Grunde Jomaas>This is why you also may have the.

00:38:07.824 --> 00:38:13.005
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know they're very lean constructions so you're getting down to oh well, we cannot install this.

00:38:13.005 --> 00:38:15.940
<v Grunde Jomaas>So it comes down to what can you afford?

00:38:15.940 --> 00:38:19.913
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know how thick, or because it's a heat transfer problem in the end.

00:38:19.913 --> 00:38:26.300
<v Grunde Jomaas>So you're like, oh yeah, well, I'll just use a big thick this and that on top and nothing will happen.

00:38:26.521 --> 00:38:29.914
<v Grunde Jomaas>And and that could be good from an energy renovation perspective.

00:38:29.914 --> 00:38:37.639
<v Grunde Jomaas>You can do two things at once, that you improve the energy efficiency of the building at the same time as you're putting the the pv panel on top.

00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:38.740
<v Grunde Jomaas>But so you know.

00:38:38.740 --> 00:38:49.166
<v Grunde Jomaas>So we, we recommend or say that you have to do preferably a non-combustible insulation, but if you do use other solutions, that you should test them.

00:38:49.166 --> 00:38:51.139
<v Grunde Jomaas>Okay With the panel.

00:38:51.139 --> 00:38:52.496
<v Grunde Jomaas>Yeah, test.

00:38:52.496 --> 00:38:54.925
<v Grunde Jomaas>As you know, it's a system, so test it as built.

00:38:55.335 --> 00:38:58.425
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perform an engineering exercise and just see what happens.

00:38:59.096 --> 00:39:10.146
<v Grunde Jomaas>And if you can document that well, and maybe it's also down to the insurance company to say that they're comfortable with the solution, because there are no building regulations that demand one thing or another.

00:39:10.146 --> 00:39:19.789
<v Grunde Jomaas>So it will often be down to the insurance, which is why you can see a lot of the guidelines and the other documents we refer.

00:39:19.789 --> 00:39:27.239
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know, it's Alliance, axa, risk Control, risk Association, zurich, generali, fm, global.

00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:32.958
<v Grunde Jomaas>They're very active on this, which is again when people say, oh, why are you talking about this?

00:39:32.958 --> 00:39:39.465
<v Grunde Jomaas>It's not such a big problem and it's like well, I don't think the insurance companies are talking very much about things that are.

00:39:39.465 --> 00:39:45.360
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know, if they're very interested, I guess they have recognized that there is something that they want to do about it.

00:39:46.137 --> 00:39:53.103
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I wonder to what extent the gap height is a solution, because from my interview with Jens, what stood out from his PhD?

00:39:53.103 --> 00:39:57.581
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He was actually looking for a critical gap height, you know, after which nothing happened anymore.

00:39:57.581 --> 00:40:02.875
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I really I contemplate that whether perhaps putting them higher would not be a solution.

00:40:02.875 --> 00:40:09.985
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But I guess this creates another dynamic with the wind yeah of course you do have these other constraints that come in.

00:40:10.516 --> 00:40:26.461
<v Grunde Jomaas>So Jens did a lot of testing with just flat, you know with the horizontal, and then we've also done other testing where we have like the classic installation, and then recently we we also done some testing with vertical panel.

00:40:26.461 --> 00:40:40.539
<v Grunde Jomaas>So it's not just like a one-way road because, unsurprisingly, if you have a vertical panel not much happened because you don't have a chain fire dynamics and they're non-combustible, so it doesn't change.

00:40:40.539 --> 00:41:03.302
<v Grunde Jomaas>But it's not like you go then to certain angles and it gets worse to the point where you go then to certain angles and it gets worse to the point where you go to the flat, because actually the flat is somewhat better than the angled one, and that has to do with when you have an angled one you have an easier flow route for recirculation, you have some buoyancy going up, you have a longer flame extension along the panel and then you get to you.

00:41:03.302 --> 00:41:05.387
<v Grunde Jomaas>We established some critical gap height.

00:41:05.387 --> 00:41:10.684
<v Grunde Jomaas>But there's very nice work and very nice scientific engineering result.

00:41:11.438 --> 00:41:15.762
<v Grunde Jomaas>The problem with it is that everybody then wanted to have a talk.

00:41:15.762 --> 00:41:16.364
<v Grunde Jomaas>What is it?

00:41:16.364 --> 00:41:17.862
<v Grunde Jomaas>Is it 11 centimeter?

00:41:17.862 --> 00:41:19.762
<v Grunde Jomaas>Is it 12 centimeter?

00:41:19.762 --> 00:41:21.485
<v Grunde Jomaas>And it's the system.

00:41:21.485 --> 00:41:22.434
<v Grunde Jomaas>Again, it's the system.

00:41:22.434 --> 00:41:23.699
<v Grunde Jomaas>It depends on?

00:41:23.699 --> 00:41:25.516
<v Grunde Jomaas>Which type of membrane do you have?

00:41:25.516 --> 00:41:27.400
<v Grunde Jomaas>Which type of panel you have?

00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:27.963
<v Grunde Jomaas>Which type?

00:41:28.023 --> 00:41:29.746
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>of crib you put in underneath it.

00:41:29.746 --> 00:41:31.878
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is it like seven kilos?

00:41:32.157 --> 00:41:33.099
<v Grunde Jomaas>or how big.

00:41:33.099 --> 00:41:37.007
<v Grunde Jomaas>If you put a bigger crib then maybe it's for you.

00:41:37.007 --> 00:41:44.148
<v Grunde Jomaas>So some people wanted to have the quick answer and that's where you know we have to disappoint people a little bit.

00:41:44.148 --> 00:41:46.701
<v Grunde Jomaas>I'm sorry it is not a quick answer.

00:41:46.701 --> 00:41:58.161
<v Grunde Jomaas>I guess you've done that with the green facades, but also all of the work you have done with the car park and ventilation and so on, where I'm sure people say so how big of a ventilation system do I need?

00:41:58.282 --> 00:42:04.302
<v Grunde Jomaas>or or which car park will work what height of this then and you're like, yeah well, it's higher.

00:42:04.302 --> 00:42:07.257
<v Grunde Jomaas>Yeah well, they can tell you higher with good certainty.

00:42:07.257 --> 00:42:10.724
<v Grunde Jomaas>But or as I often end up saying, it depends.

00:42:10.724 --> 00:42:13.552
<v Grunde Jomaas>But it's a case by case.

00:42:13.552 --> 00:42:15.876
<v Grunde Jomaas>It is engineering that is needed.

00:42:15.876 --> 00:42:21.748
<v Grunde Jomaas>It is not something you can take off, just the shelf solution, I say, but that's a.

00:42:21.855 --> 00:42:29.784
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know, when people have said what we we're getting, to some extent we're getting to the firefighting and maintenance and some of these things that we also discuss.

00:42:29.784 --> 00:42:44.608
<v Grunde Jomaas>But on this thing people have said what's next in terms of research and the fire dynamics, the ignition, one of the things that, after the work that Jens did, he focused mostly with PVC membranes.

00:42:44.608 --> 00:42:46.469
<v Grunde Jomaas>There's a lot of different membranes.

00:42:46.469 --> 00:43:07.335
<v Grunde Jomaas>So we're trying testing the different membranes, also getting nuances of the different panels, but basically also trying to really look at, maybe through testing, also get some solutions that we know work, because we, you know we're going to have this unprecedented change of the roofs in Europe and around the world.

00:43:07.335 --> 00:43:13.858
<v Grunde Jomaas>They don't have to per se, but it's the natural driving thing because it is a good solution in most asp.

00:43:13.858 --> 00:43:21.242
<v Grunde Jomaas>So we need to, you know, if we can have a couple of work solutions that we say, if you build it like this, you'll be fine, it may.

00:43:21.242 --> 00:43:24.697
<v Grunde Jomaas>And then people say, well, but that doesn't work for me because of these and these constraints.

00:43:24.717 --> 00:43:52.561
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like well, then test something, tell us those constraints, we can test it and we can meet your requirements for that I think the fire science is more and more growing into a science of it depends, as the complexity of the problems that we are touching and dealing with became insane, and especially that it's not just our objectives, you know, because the easiest, sometimes easiest, is to remove someone's else objective, you know, turn something into non-combustible.

00:43:52.561 --> 00:44:04.827
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The membranes are combustible for a reason because they're damn good waterproofing materials and it's hard to find a non-combustible waterproofing material that creates matrix as good as PVC or vitamin.

00:44:04.827 --> 00:44:07.655
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So there are reasons for those things to be combustible.

00:44:07.655 --> 00:44:09.963
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's our job to figure out.

00:44:10.335 --> 00:44:21.179
<v Grunde Jomaas>Yeah, I mean because either because, you know, as a simple engineer as myself, I talk with some people and say, oh well, maybe we can have like a membrane that's for pv.

00:44:21.179 --> 00:44:49.463
<v Grunde Jomaas>Uh, when you have pv and and the membranes that are like we have them now, that have been perfected for 25 year, whatever lifetime, or and you know all of the conditions that the membrane should do, and they're like, that's very, very difficult because you know it comes down to changing chemical compositions, uh and so on, and and they, they know the constraints with all the these products, they know which uh parameters to choose.

00:44:49.463 --> 00:44:54.427
<v Grunde Jomaas>So that's why we need to when we talk again about, you know, a mitigation layer.

00:44:54.427 --> 00:45:03.164
<v Grunde Jomaas>And I realized I was just at a conference in the Netherlands, at the NIPV, and one question was so what is a mitigation layer?

00:45:03.164 --> 00:45:05.663
<v Grunde Jomaas>I said I need to explain that better.

00:45:05.663 --> 00:45:07.282
<v Grunde Jomaas>So what is a mitigation layer?

00:45:07.282 --> 00:45:14.289
<v Grunde Jomaas>I said, well, it is what you have between the membrane and and whatever you have below.

00:45:14.309 --> 00:45:52.407
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know it could be many different things, but if you have, so you only have a mitigation layer if you have, well, for the most part, if you have an existing construction with, say, highly flammable insulation material and again I'm going to say it's eps, and that's when you you really need the mitigation here and and it can be many, many ways to do that, so you can look it up there's many, many suggestions for how to do that, because it is getting recognition that, yes, the fire will spread across the membrane, but we want to protect the assets which is the building below.

00:45:53.034 --> 00:45:59.568
<v Grunde Jomaas>Quite a few people can tolerate that you burn some panels and you burn some membrane.

00:45:59.568 --> 00:46:02.681
<v Grunde Jomaas>That's actually reasonably easy to deal with.

00:46:02.681 --> 00:46:10.088
<v Grunde Jomaas>But what we need to understand is what brings the difference of that being a small nuance to that being a big loss in the building.

00:46:10.088 --> 00:46:13.599
<v Grunde Jomaas>Because, as you mentioned, the membranes function well.

00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:16.289
<v Grunde Jomaas>The membrane one of the big thing is to keep water out.

00:46:16.289 --> 00:46:31.682
<v Grunde Jomaas>If the membrane is burned and you start throwing water on the building uh many situations you have a lot of water entering where it's not intended to come you've segued me to important point, because the last part of your guidance is is related to firefighting.

00:46:36.554 --> 00:46:38.657
<v Grunde Jomaas>So why did engineers look into firefighting and what did the engineers find in that?

00:46:38.657 --> 00:46:39.958
<v Grunde Jomaas>The main thing is to I mean it goes in.

00:46:39.958 --> 00:46:52.452
<v Grunde Jomaas>The most quoted firefighter in the world recently is from the Copenhagen Fire Brigade, Jakob, where he said at the SFP conference after the big fire at Burson's like don't make our lives more complicated.

00:46:52.452 --> 00:47:09.764
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know the firefighting fires is very complex, very challenging to begin with, and that's why, when we go for the firefighting for the roofs, we you know safe rooftop access, safe operations while on the roof and then a successful application of extinguishing medium.

00:47:09.764 --> 00:47:11.362
<v Grunde Jomaas>You know that they could do that.

00:47:11.362 --> 00:47:15.501
<v Grunde Jomaas>And then you can retract and say you know that they could do that, and then you can retract and say, oh, how can we do that?

00:47:15.501 --> 00:47:21.380
<v Grunde Jomaas>Well, so some of the things are related to don't put pv panels across the entire roofing surface.

00:47:21.380 --> 00:47:28.719
<v Grunde Jomaas>They should be able to enter the room from any of the four sides of a building and they should be able to walk around.

00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:52.077
<v Grunde Jomaas>In terms of safe operations, people also, you know it's related to shutoffs or de-energizing the panel, Different ways to do that, and whether it's active application of a medium or whether it's main switches that you turn on and then you have extinguishing medium and that's a selection to what is most effective to do, and that's a selection to what is most effective to do.

00:47:52.077 --> 00:47:58.188
<v Grunde Jomaas>But if we backtrack because this is something I didn't get to before you ask it, do we have any fixed systems?

00:47:58.655 --> 00:48:06.349
<v Grunde Jomaas>So one of the quite challenges now for firefighters, I would say it's very manual detection.

00:48:06.349 --> 00:48:10.365
<v Grunde Jomaas>So detection is somebody seeing a big plume in the sky?

00:48:10.365 --> 00:48:14.581
<v Grunde Jomaas>Detection, is somebody seeing a big plume in the sky three kilometers away?

00:48:14.581 --> 00:48:17.469
<v Grunde Jomaas>They see it's a fire, but inside the building they may be unaware that the building is on fire.

00:48:17.469 --> 00:48:20.336
<v Grunde Jomaas>And and then you know that there's posting on.

00:48:20.336 --> 00:48:24.025
<v Grunde Jomaas>Linkedin will get you all the solutions in the world.

00:48:24.025 --> 00:48:27.938
<v Grunde Jomaas>Uh, so so you know there could be, you know cameras.

00:48:27.938 --> 00:48:37.545
<v Grunde Jomaas>There's the drones, there's the monitoring of the performance of the system, there's linear line detectors, there's the flame detectors nothing new.

00:48:37.545 --> 00:48:49.188
<v Grunde Jomaas>All of the systems we know that exist and work in other places and that, of course, with an earlier detection, earlier alarm, maybe the fire can even be dealt by trained personnel on site.

00:48:49.956 --> 00:48:58.864
<v Grunde Jomaas>In a big warehouse you will typically have staff that are building superintendents and they can have training to deal with this.

00:48:58.864 --> 00:49:05.164
<v Grunde Jomaas>And I've heard that maybe the ones with the really big warehouses and so on will deal with that.

00:49:05.164 --> 00:49:23.969
<v Grunde Jomaas>And then you also have I've heard you know there are some developments for extinguishing systems and that I think will be, you know, a cost benefit type of interest, Because if you have four panels on your home, a little cottage, I'm not sure you want to necessarily invest in it.

00:49:23.969 --> 00:49:41.478
<v Grunde Jomaas>But if you're a big warehouse with 10,000 panels and a billion at risk, if something happens happens, maybe consider actually that the insurance company may, may say that is something that they require, and of course, then you should also focus, as is where we end up is.

00:49:41.898 --> 00:49:51.326
<v Grunde Jomaas>You need to work on the maintenance and you need to, you know like, because the maintenance will reduce the probability of this and also the consequences.

00:49:51.326 --> 00:50:03.146
<v Grunde Jomaas>There's bird's nests that can be growing up, there's poor connections, there's panels that have been moved, you know rodents going One of my favorites actually, recently I heard in the US.

00:50:03.146 --> 00:50:06.143
<v Grunde Jomaas>You also need to look at bullet holes on the roofs.

00:50:06.143 --> 00:50:20.768
<v Grunde Jomaas>Yeah, well, because apparently on the 4th of July and other celebrations, people shoot guns and the bullet needs to land somewhere, and if you have a warehouse that is eight or ten football fields big, you know that very big landing area.

00:50:20.768 --> 00:50:26.146
<v Grunde Jomaas>So apparently it's not so uncommon to have bullet holes on warehouse roofs in the US.

00:50:26.547 --> 00:50:38.987
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's interesting yeah well, if you think about it, they have to fall somewhere, right, it's not that they're going to an orbit, and I guess, well, the same would be even, to some extent, to hailstorms which we would have in here.

00:50:38.987 --> 00:50:54.016
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>More common end of the document as well, in this talk.

00:50:54.016 --> 00:50:54.557
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, uh, it's not a long read.

00:50:54.557 --> 00:50:55.740
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Where should people find it to to take a look at it?

00:50:55.760 --> 00:51:12.987
<v Grunde Jomaas>because it's, it's a, it's a good piece of communication well, thank you, we put it on the frisbee website, the project that I'm leading here in slovenia, the fire safe, sustainable built environment eu funded project and we put it on our I think it's under the news.

00:51:12.987 --> 00:51:21.556
<v Grunde Jomaas>Uh, you will put a direct link, well, to the page but we can also directly exactly just a right link to the pdf document.

00:51:22.117 --> 00:51:33.768
<v Grunde Jomaas>I've also, you know, linkedin the tough to find, but I have published it on linkedin as well, where you can just click on the document there and people can take it from there.

00:51:33.768 --> 00:51:39.867
<v Grunde Jomaas>And for those that can't figure out of those, then they end up emailing me or you to find it.

00:51:39.867 --> 00:51:41.418
<v Grunde Jomaas>Then we will direct them.

00:51:41.418 --> 00:51:45.186
<v Grunde Jomaas>Just to recap also, you know we have the so Ignition.

00:51:45.186 --> 00:51:48.061
<v Grunde Jomaas>So there's installation quality products.

00:51:48.061 --> 00:51:56.501
<v Grunde Jomaas>There are things also that you can install to minimize it, to protect the arcing or monitoring direct physical systems that you can use.

00:51:56.501 --> 00:52:03.864
<v Grunde Jomaas>Then you have the fire dynamics and then the route buildup that you need to take care of and the maintenance and the firefight.

00:52:03.864 --> 00:52:13.092
<v Grunde Jomaas>So it's a balance of all of them that there are options, many options in all, and I don't think there's one thing that can solve everything.

00:52:13.092 --> 00:52:14.436
<v Grunde Jomaas>It's a combined effort.

00:52:14.836 --> 00:52:43.579
<v Grunde Jomaas>But what we do say is that, from a general fire perspective, to say that we will never have any ignition, that's, I think, been proven in fire science that that is a wrong assumption or a very risky assumption to take, and that's why we recommend to have a robust system that can handle a fire in the case and deliver an outcome that you can live with instead of facing big consequences.

00:52:43.579 --> 00:53:00.882
<v Grunde Jomaas>The nuance is that it's very, very little, which is why it required this very careful engineering, interaction by knowledgeable people, because you have a fire like the we Are the Curious in Bristol that museum that was in 2022.

00:53:00.882 --> 00:53:18.425
<v Grunde Jomaas>It's more than two years and it's about to open this summer and you have I've used in the talk and I think I will do in the talk tomorrow when I do the webinar If we look at two fires that, from the outlook, look pretty similar, one is a total loss and the other one opened a few days later.

00:53:18.425 --> 00:53:26.695
<v Grunde Jomaas>So there's nuances and people may say, oh, that was lucky, it's resilience, that is resilience.

00:53:26.795 --> 00:53:33.333
<v Grunde Jomaas>Yeah, it's resilience and it's quite positive base because people know what they're doing To a great extent.

00:53:34.056 --> 00:53:37.867
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think that's a very strong point to finish on.

00:53:37.867 --> 00:53:40.041
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'll put the links into the show notes.

00:53:40.041 --> 00:53:41.184
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Good luck with your webinar.

00:53:41.184 --> 00:53:44.865
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess it'll still be accessible whenever people like, on the Frisbee website.

00:53:44.865 --> 00:53:55.159
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, yeah, all the best, man with the guidelines and looking forward to another sustainability oriented materials coming out from frisbee.

00:53:55.199 --> 00:54:05.347
<v Grunde Jomaas>Appreciate that a lot, man cheers thank you uh in a pleasure to be here, and I uh look forward to seeing you for our summer school in our world.

00:54:05.367 --> 00:54:06.956
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's gonna be fun, remember.

00:54:07.277 --> 00:54:11.686
<v Grunde Jomaas>We'll hear more about that later, but but I'll keep throwing it out Perfect.

00:54:11.726 --> 00:54:12.206
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thanks, man.

00:54:12.206 --> 00:54:16.804
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>All right, this essay of mine has clearly a lot of small things to say.

00:54:16.804 --> 00:54:20.405
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you, Grunde, for sharing your insights on PVs with us.

00:54:20.405 --> 00:54:22.762
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hard for me to summarize it even further.

00:54:22.762 --> 00:54:26.987
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You took that role from me in the end of the episode, for which I am grateful.

00:54:26.987 --> 00:54:32.425
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If people like communications like this, well, perhaps in a different forum.

00:54:32.425 --> 00:54:36.682
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Grund also has his new project, the newsletter called the burning matters.

00:54:36.682 --> 00:54:51.244
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There's, of course, a link in the show notes, and if you sign there every week, you're gonna get a new dose of interesting fire science, perhaps not in the podcast version, but also in a very accessible and nice format.

00:54:51.244 --> 00:54:53.208
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So good job on that, sensei.

00:54:53.208 --> 00:54:55.217
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's something I don't have yet.

00:54:55.217 --> 00:54:57.021
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perhaps I should one day, who knows?

00:54:57.021 --> 00:54:59.327
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Anyway, back to the content.

00:55:00.014 --> 00:55:04.528
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This episode once again highlighted the role of systematic thinking.

00:55:04.528 --> 00:55:06.454
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not PV that's an issue.

00:55:06.454 --> 00:55:09.123
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not the building roof membrane that's the issue.

00:55:09.123 --> 00:55:11.150
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's the combination of both.

00:55:11.150 --> 00:55:15.501
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's the way how PV panels change the intended use of your roof.

00:55:15.501 --> 00:55:25.108
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Even though you may not realize that, even though that the testing regime does not account for that, even though that it seems trivial, but yet it does.

00:55:25.108 --> 00:55:32.442
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It does significantly and imposes a ton of challenges for the building, for the firefighters, for their insurers, for the owners.

00:55:32.442 --> 00:55:39.989
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We have to take that into account and great that resources like the one presented today exist that help us do the job.

00:55:39.989 --> 00:55:42.079
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There's not much more to add.

00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:55.442
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You really should read up that short guideline, because it simply covers most of the stuff that you need to know about PVs, and if you need more knowledge, there are links and references to more detailed guidelines out there.

00:55:55.442 --> 00:55:57.264
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So a great starting point.

00:55:57.264 --> 00:56:02.583
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you have to deal with PV installations as a fire safety engineer, I would definitely start there.

00:56:02.583 --> 00:56:18.114
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And yeah, that's it for today's episode Once again, where I'm still in the mood of celebrating the third birthday of the podcast, still extremely happy that I am still here with you, and I will be here with you next Wednesday.

00:56:18.695 --> 00:56:20.516
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope you will be there with me as well.

00:56:20.516 --> 00:56:21.358
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>See you there.

00:56:21.358 --> 00:56:22.338
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you bye.

00:56:22.338 --> 00:56:35.871
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This was the Fire Science Show.

00:56:35.871 --> 00:56:38.239
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you for listening and see you soon.