Your Story Isn’t Needed - Pie Aerts Finds Meaning Within The Pressure Machine Of Photography, E108

This is a tricky, tricky subject to speak about.
But what we're like, what why am I doing this?
Self-doubt is the one thing you need to embrace as an artist.
How do you sit with this kind of moral tension after being doing it for so many years and these ethical responsibilities of that you have?
I'm having a hard time in defining what type of photographer I am.
But in the end of the day, at one recurring threat is I'm always looking for an angle of hope.
And it's the one thing I'm missing in an attempt to try to explain why we seem increasingly disconnected not only from each other, but also from ourselves and mostly also from our environment.
Let's go into what we really want to talk about.
You know, you mentioned that your project is down in Chile.
How do you approach a culture minister?
Subculture minute people that don't want to be voted.
At first instance, it felt like I was doing a story on the duality of isolation, which is really still about that.
On the one hand, you can see these guys battling with the mental consequences of living an entire life in isolation.
They might be forever solidified as the last generation of this culture.
They fear retiring more than they fear dying.
A story I'll never forget is.
Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time.
I'm your host, Matt Jacob.
Thank you so much for joining me in today's conversation.
My guest this week is friend and fantastic photographer P.
Arts.
He's a documentary and wildlife photographer whose work sits at the intersection of human presence, conservation, long-form storytelling, and the impact of humanity on nature and the relationship within.
P is the founder of Prince for Wildlife, a platform that's raised over $2 million for conservation, and his practice spans commercial assignments, editorial work, expeditions around the world, and deeply personal long-form projects.
Since we last spoke on the podcast two years ago, P has really evolved and continued to lead expeditions globally and is now preparing to release a major long-term body of work photographed in Chile with the gauchos published later this year with Ghost.
In my conversation with him, we reflect on what has shifted over the last two years, revisiting themes of hope and despair before going a little bit deeper into the role that expeditions play in peace, life, and livelihood, what travel and presence really mean in a fractured world, and what the responsibility is that of it, and the ethical tensions that sit beneath storytelling and conservation.
But really, the conversation gravitates completely towards the meat of his work right now, which is his most significant long-term project to date, and that's the project with the Puesteros, the Gauchos of Chile, a project that has unfolded over many years and now takes form as a forthcoming book to be published, as I mentioned, with Gost.
We spend a substantial part of the conversation unpacking how the project began, how it evolved, what it means to stay with this story over so long, and what ethical responsibility emerges when documenting a way of life that is slowly disappearing.
But before we begin the conversation, I actually want to play a short piece that introduces this project of his and the relevant Kickstarter campaign that will fund the book's publication.
The campaign has just launched and will run for the next four weeks.
And the next two minutes of this podcast offers important context for the project, for the conversation I had with him.
So if you want to support his incredible project, then you can do so using the links in the show notes.
So let's start with that short piece from P now, and then we'll move into the podcast conversation after that.
I hope you enjoy.
In an attempt to explore why we seem increasingly disconnected from each other, ourselves, and our natural environment.
It was on that journey where I was first drawn to the quiet, solitary existence of Chilean puesteros.
Ranch workers who live in isolated cabins, managing livestock on remote ranches or being employed by ranch owners.
In my personal life, I've long battled anxiety.
As long as I can remember, I feared being alone.
Yet, by spending time with these puesteros, I came to understand the duality of loneliness.
On the one hand, I've witnessed them battle with the mental consequences of sitting through a lifetime of stillness, hardship, and endurance.
But at the same time, they seem to possess a rare capacity to exist within that solitude, a quality that feels almost entirely lost in the world I come from.
Slowly, over the course of six years, the stoic curtain began to fall, and fortitude gave way to vulnerability.
With your help, this story can now become a joke.
A story that explores the intimate world of some of these last posters.
A meditation on stillness, human resilience, and the inevitable passing of time.
A portrait of men living at the edge of the world, pushing through because they must, through silence, endurance, and repetition.
All funds raised through this Kickstarter will go to the production, printing, and distribution of this book.
For each book sold, I am donating a percentage to the Esperanza Housing Project, a local charity that provides retirement housing to retired for us in the region.
Together, we can preserve the story and the legacy of these gentlemen.
I am forever thankful for your support.
Yeah, likewise.
It's gone fast.
Tell me what's been happening.
Oh wow, yeah.
A lot has been happening.
Um I have another kid.
Congratulations.
To begin with.
Thank you, thank you.
Um that was the biggest change.
We left the city.
So we're now living in the countryside, which is also pretty pleasant.
Work is moving.
Um yeah, I'm happy.
I mean, the landscape has changed, the world is is changing more faster than ever before, but um I'm in a good place in terms of work, so that's at least giving some form of comfort.
For those that may not know you, um uh may not have uh seen your stuff or um seen you around, give us uh an overview of your bona fides and experience and pedigree in the in the photography world and a bit of an elevator pitch to uh to describe to people who you are, what you do.
One minute, two minutes.
We've got as long as you want.
Yeah, um in my work, I think I'm exploring uh kind of the I sometimes sometimes call it the I like the word, the melancholic relationship between people and place.
And uh that comes in many different versions, uh, but always in an attempt to try to explain why we seem increasingly disconnected, not only from each other, but also from ourselves and mostly also from our environment.
So that sometimes sends me into a documentary people some people call it lyrical documentary avenue.
Sometimes it sends me into wildlife photography, sometimes there is a crossover between the two where you could say it's about human wildlife coexistence.
So I haven't I'm having a hard time in defining uh what type of photographer I am.
But in the end of the day, I think one recurring threat is um is I'm always looking for uh an angle of hope.
It's the one thing I'm missing.
Um I'm sure you agree.
Increasingly, year after year, it's kind of disappearing.
So that is something you will recognize in most of my work, hopefully.
Um yeah, so it's a it's a very um extended version of my elevator pitch.
When you say hope, uh hope in what respect?
You just mean with humanit the the relationship between humanity and uh humans and nature?
Um because we talked about this last time.
I I I got a few notes in terms of what we talked about last time um when it came to hope versus despair.
This was a a big thing of what you uh has been running through your work as far as I've known you.
So I kind of want to hear about w what you mean by hope exactly and whether art can you feel like art can still move that needle and and kind of bring that disconnect a little bit closer?
Sounds like it has Yeah, yeah.
Um it still has a big influence on on my on how I look at projects and how I look at photography and how I navigate life.
See how I look at I think art is the language of the heart, and we're communicating too much with our heads, our ratio.
And I do believe that art has a power to to bring people together, uh to heal, uh, to console.
It is something that's easily overlooked as leftist bullet in a world that is like extremely polarizing.
So where where we're kind of growing apart, I think art is one of those industries or one of those um ecosystems that can actually build bridges and bring people back together, uh by kind of offering a different form of dialogue.
Uh a dialogue in which you might see something of yourself in someone else.
So it kind of mirrors in a way.
Uh that for me is one of the most powerful aspects of it, whether it's poetry or music or photography or writing or theater.
There's so many forms, even sculpture, any form of art, I think, is bridging that gap.
And um what it does to me mostly is giving hope in these dark times.
So it's I mean, negativity easily sells.
I think that's what we currently see.
Fear is is one of the most powerful tools in in dividing people.
And I think it's our responsibility as artists or as humans in general.
I think you don't even have to be an artist, but to just bridge that gap.
And I I feel like in your work you've embraced that uncertainness a little bit more, that ambiguity a lot more in terms of expressing your stories and the the photos that you you put together, put out there.
Yeah, I mean, the the funny thing, and and um maybe photographer other photographers listening recognize that or other artists, is that the sometimes the rate at which you develop into a certain direction is happening so fast that you kind of disconnect from work you've been doing previously faster than you actually would like to.
And that has been happening a lot to me in the last five, six years.
And um, I wouldn't say necessarily since the last time we spoke in 24, but it's happening all the time.
So it kind of means that when I'm looking back, I can see a place for all the work I did, but in a way, I've outgrown a lot of that work as well.
So uh uh within the context of the project I'm I'm currently working on, or the project I just finalized in Patagonia, I'm sure we talk about it on this chat.
I can see many of these waves.
It's been six years uh since the start of it.
And uh when I look at the the photographer who shot the first two years, I see a different person and a different artistic expression than the second two years and the last two years.
So I think that is beautiful, but at the same time, it can be challenging if it's a longer form body of work in which it has to be kind of cohesive.
I mean, it doesn't have to be, but you want it to be cohesive.
And certainly in my career as a visual um artist, I've been going through many of these phases in which I've been embracing maybe poetry more as a reference to the work I do.
So the absence of information has has rapidly in the last three, four years uh have been has been growing on me in a different type of photographic storytelling than before, if that makes sense.
Yeah, well, and why has that changed for you?
What where has that evolution come from?
Has it come from the you know, inspirations, influences, and you've obviously grown in exposure and uh visibility over the over the last few years?
How has that all impacted kind of that emotional relationship or the the evolution of that that part of your work?
I think a lot comes with maturing and aging.
I'm getting old, Matt.
I think it also comes with what are you 40?
I'm 40, yeah, yeah.
My dad always says that's not old, you know.
It's not old.
It's all relative, man.
You don't feel old, yeah.
But you feel old when you got a couple of couple of couple of kids running around.
The thing is, I don't feel old.
So yeah, it's uh I just look old.
No.
But no, you don't.
Um uh well becoming a dad was a big thing for me in uh in in readjusting my my look at my work.
Um uh becoming a dad for the second time was confirming that notion of having to change things in a way.
I think I mean I mean, I'm not coming from a photography background, I'm coming from a completely opposite background, business.
And I made a transition into photography.
People want to hear the story, they can listen the previous podcast.
But I made a transition into photography in 2018, 2019, actually.
And um, that for me always was a like uh a rat, well, no, I wouldn't say a rat race, but a race towards closing the gap on creation because I'm coming from a world of commerce, and I always felt I was lacking that creative capacity of coming to a certain level of doing longer form, meaningful work, projects you work on for many, many years.
And I increasingly over the last couple of years, I felt the need to make things deeper and more connecting and more intentional.
But at the same time, I also felt a well, not a need, but an urge to make income because I have two kids to raise.
And that has been a massive inner struggle in which I always felt I had to push for deeper work.
But as we all know, longer form, deeper stories, there's not much money in it.
There's a lot of heart in it and tears, but not a lot of money.
So that on the one hand was happening, but on the other hand, I've I had to develop a model in which I could make an income that could sustain a family as a freelance photographer.
I'm not doing much client work, I'm not doing much editorial work anymore.
So my answer to that question has been to start an expedition business in which I curate and build small uh, let's say eight to ten people privately uh hosted by myself, expeditions to very remote regions where I was doing work already, and uh uh some of them being Himalayas, Patagonia, places in Africa, just to keep going to those places, to keep investing in my network of operators there, to keep working on meaningful stories in those places, but at the same time, uh building an income out of it that would be a that would be like a funding engine for my personal work.
So I've made kind of a split in the the last couple of years, in which part of my time and part of my resources goes towards building a, I'd say, I wouldn't say commercial, but it's um it's it it runs as a commercial business.
Expeditions, on the other hand, I'm using the income coming out of expeditions to finance longer form books, uh impact projects, uh charity work I do, uh NGO work and so on.
And so far, so good.
It kind of works.
If you're enjoying this conversation and if you're drawn to this kind of slow reflective discussions we have on this podcast, then I want to let you know about my free closed community book club, which might be something that you genuinely find value in.
The Voice Alchemy Book Club is kind of an extension of these types of conversations.
Each month we focus on one of three types of work a book, a photo book, or a photo critique, and we meet online to sit with it properly, asking ourselves what it's meant to one another, what we can maybe learn from it, what ideas and actions we can take from it, what it's wrestling with, and what it asks of us as viewers and creators are.
It's a space for deeper introspection, long-form thinking, and really honest discussions around photography, creativity, and authorship.
There's no pressure to perform at all, no chasing trends, no algorithms, no need to have everything figured out, just honest, authentic connection with fellow like-minded creators, careful, collaborative looking, thoughtful and meaningful conversation, and a community of people who care about staying with the work long enough for it to mean something.
So if this episode and this podcast generally resonates with you, which I hope it does, the book club is a natural place to continue that way of thinking and actually participate for free with others that will be open and welcoming to you and your ideas.
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Yeah, and uh being one of the participants of your expedition in the Ladakh uh when was it?
Yeah, end of 2024, wasn't it?
That was epic.
Um, you certainly do it, do it well and do it right, in my opinion.
So uh that's probably um probably a lot of the reason why it's been so successful.
But it's we've talked about this before, like there'll always be people that want to travel, you know, with you know, threat of AI is always there, threat of homogenization, you know, complete dilution of revenue models in in freelance photography.
There will always be a desire for people to want to go and see the rest of the world and and also take a camera with them.
And now I know that a lot of you are uh some of the people that come on your expeditions aren't aren't photographers, but um you know I think that's almost a bulletproof business model.
And um, yeah, kudos to you for that.
I think certainly too well what what let's move into expeditions quickly because uh I'm interested, I don't think I've asked you this before, but why um reel off some of the locations you go to because some of them are not weird and wonderful, but they are unique.
And I want to know the reasons why, where, how, and why those destinations came about for your expeditions.
Yeah, so one of my golden rules in in hosting these trips, um, I'm I'm positioning myself in a very high-end segment.
It's uh there I'm aware that the trips are expensive.
Uh so with that ex with that price comes a certain responsibility to give back at first, to give back to communities I work with, but also to deliver a 10 out of 10 product if people are actually putting down a good amount of money to come on this trip.
And for many people, it is a once-in-a-lifetime experience.
Some people bring very close relatives.
I've had many people bring their parents or a father and a daughter, or just newlyweds, or two friends.
Uh, it is built around solo travel, but more and more I see it's gonna it's becoming a mix of solo and couple travel or friend travel.
I mean, it it taps into a few big trends within the travel industry.
And and I mean, you said it already, since our last chat, the entire landscape has completely shifted and changed.
And one of my like absolute existential threats, and one thing that I can sometimes wake up shivering at night is obviously AI, like everyone else.
And my answer to AI is still unknown.
Um I'm I'm shifting between embracing it and resisting it.
But my kind of temporary answer for now has been let's do these expeditions because there will always be a demand for reality, as you say, and there will always be people that.
Want to feel and smell and touch places and be there with other people in a group that is carefully curated.
And but one of my golden rules in doing these trips over the years became that I only want to bring people that pay that, that are willing to pay that price and put their themselves out there to places I know throughout and throughout.
Right.
So it became a rule to not go to a place with my guests that I haven't been visiting three to five times, at least myself without guests.
So that kind of narrowed the landscape down to places I've been doing most of my work in the last couple of years, which is Kenya, Zambia, Botswana, Himalayas, Patagonia.
And now increasingly I'm moving into the Arctic and building up some like network and contacts and experience there.
So the reason I picked those places in the first place is because of my network and the fact that it is all human business.
So you need to know your way around the best guides, the best hospitality companies, the even the best people on the ground.
Outside of guides to work with, you want to work with the best drivers, but above above anything else, you want to work with communities you have very strong relationships with.
And you've been seeing it in Ladakh yourself.
That's been like more than five years in the works of finding access into communities that are actually this is a tricky, tricky subject to speak about, but that I feel are benefiting from our visit in a way that they are compensated.
The community councils are compensated.
It's all been being done from the idea that the interaction and the experience is always priority.
It's not a photo trip.
It is about the experience, and we document it using photography.
So it is, it's been a journey to build it.
I mean, in Africa, it's it's easier because you're working with with animals, and it's much easier to be with a group of six or eight photographers and photograph an ecosystem and a landscape and an animal than it is working with people.
So I've been navigating this landscape step by step with a lot of intention and a lot of care.
Um and so far, I'm I'm I'm I'm I have to say I'm proud of where we where where we got.
I'm doing like six trips every year, everything sells out.
People go home with unique experiences, uh, retention rates are good.
So if people come once, they want to come on another trip.
So I mean, it was never my plan to become a agent, tour agent, or a tour guide, because in the first place I'm a photographer, but I'm coming from a background that is hospitality and and commerce, and I kind of build bringing those two worlds together.
So my deep love for hospitality business, as in hotels, restaurants, just making people feel comfortable and at ease, I can kind of bring that into my love for photographic storytelling and bring those two worlds together.
And that is one of the reasons why why I'm working with these strong hospitality partners that really give 10 out of 10 experiences on the ground.
Yeah, I don't think people realize how much investment in time and money that goes into getting these trips right and experimentation.
You know, you're not going to get it right first time in the You don't want to know how many trips uh I tried, but never worked.
Yeah, yeah.
Tell me, you touched upon it because this is this really interesting part of it for me.
And we talked about it in Ladakh and talk about it all the time with with many photographers, especially those that travel and try and kind of insert themselves, or I should say, observe or you know, temporarily integrate with unique cultures, unique places that aren't necessarily overrun with tourists.
How do you sit with the I know it's ongoing for you, but how do you feel about it now?
How do you sit with this kind of moral tension after being doing it for so many years and these ethical responsibilities of that you have when you're leading these groups?
You know, take Ladakh, for example, probably probably a really good thing, uh good example, being essentially a tourist in these places and and with this kind of overt intention of taking something from it, even though that's not our intention.
So this kind of like really deep uh introspection as to what the intention is for these people going on these expeditions, as well as yourself leading these groups, throw in context and the respect and the the kind of the ethics and dignity that you've got to kind of pile into all of these experiences.
Give us just tell us more about that and the challenges that that arise on these trips and and your opinion on how they should be handled.
Yeah, that's a big question.
Uh, I'm sure we could fill an entire podcast with the answer.
Um, see, I think in the first place, uh, it is important to acknowledge that uh travel is always exploitative.
Uh even though it might be argued by people within the industry that it's not.
Uh I I dare to say that in the current world we live in, with uh differences between cultures being so big in terms of income, in terms of exposure, but with an online world connecting more and more, I think travel is always exploitative.
And I think photography also historically has been a tool of oppression, uh, in a way that it's really really hard to pick a well to pick an approach if you go into places uh that are very foreign to where you're from.
So I think the the way to go there is uh to be to dare to be vulnerable.
And sometimes if people ask me this question, I I the only answer I can really give is that uh I'm doing everything within my possibility to not stereotype the environments I work with, but to challenge those stereotypes and to to uh well to always be aware of your privileged position of carrying a camera and traveling the world.
I think that's with that awareness, hopefully comes also a um an understanding that you have to give back in one way or another.
And there's not there's not a shortcut or a guidebook for doing that, right?
It has to come from the heart, I think.
But if it comes from the right place, I think uh travel can be much less exploitative than it usually is.
And with Ladakh as an example, uh, of course you're never doing it good, and you're always there will always be people shouting from the sidelines.
But what I see is that um not not engaging in in these types of adventures is also creating a form of paralysis that is also not the answer to how you deal with these big cultural differences.
So I think it all starts with with that daring to be vulnerable.
And I've learned that in in those five, six years of traveling to Ladakh, I mean, the the the certainly the trips in the beginning had a very different ethos than the trips now.
So I'm also still learning and the relationships become deeper and more meaningful.
But in the end of the day, you're still a group of eight people that come from a very privileged background, that travel to these culturally fragile places that are not necessarily waiting for you to arrive.
But still, if you come to come to seek to understand rather than to stereotype, I think that is a very important thing to mention.
And um, if you come to actually connect on a human level with the people you meet, and you always prioritize the encounter over anything else, you sit with those people, you give them your devoted attention, you open yourself up, and it's not necessarily.
I mean, the one thing that goes wrong is very, very much people unintentionally, without any intention to do any harm, they feel that they have to come and give people a voice or help people to give them opportunity, or uh, and that is of course a very dangerous thing.
So I'm I'm constantly trying to stay away from the from that idea on these trips.
Uh, I hope that makes sense.
But yeah, I think people people can, as especially us privileged people that can afford these types of trips and these locations, it's easy for us to um put not punch down, but maybe part of us look down and feel like these people need our help.
And you know, there's there's a hubris in that that is kind of cringy.
But um I I yeah, I could be the first person to say there's there's a there's been a little bit of that for me.
But I think the more you travel, the more travel responsibly with people like you and and well-organized trips like this who not just guide but also educate.
Um, you know, travel is, I still believe travel is the best educator when it's done responsibly.
And well, if I think you should question yourself, why do you travel in the first place?
Yeah.
And and why do you want to tell a certain story?
Is it to make yourself feel better about yourself?
And and therefore are you consequently using that privilege to perpetuate stereotypes?
I think it really comes down to that.
Or is it the opposite?
So, yeah, it's uh yeah, it's there's not really one answer to this question.
It's an ongoing debate, and I always indicate that I don't really have the answers myself.
I'm just doing it from good intention.
I I think you touched upon something really, really important there.
And I've talked about, I talk about this a lot, and I know you talk about this a lot, certainly in your your photography projects, but those unanswered questions are okay to be left unanswered.
Especially the deeper ones that just make you think because you always come back to them and make you think even more.
And that drives curiosity, that drives introspection, that drives evolution.
And that's important as artists and as human beings.
That's where opportunities and ideas and creation comes from.
So I think you know, we're we're so quick me doing a podcast.
I don't expect people to answer questions all the time, but it's good to raise a question maybe with another question and you know, like you just did, fire it back at fire it back at the person and make them think, well, why do you do that in the first place?
There's no necessarily right or wrong.
But if you know about that and you know about yourself a little bit more, you can either make better decisions or be more responsible with those decisions.
And I think that's something that uh either people think we overthink too much or it gets overlooked.
So um yeah, thank you.
I I constantly keep going back to this beautiful quote by Maya Angelut that that's that says, do the best you can until you know better.
Then when you know better, do better.
And I think that that very much sums it up in a way that uh we should all I think we should all be a little bit more vulnerable when it comes to uh this polarized discussion on things, on many, many things that's happening.
And we all make mistakes and we learn from them and we keep revisiting our decisions over and over again.
And there's not really one way one way or another, but as long as you keep improving, I think that's a lot.
And and uh it's nice to see you develop your voice in a written way as well.
Um, you started Substack, I think uh last year, maybe, maybe not even a year ago.
Um tell tell us why we're not gonna dwell on Substack, of course, but I just thought I'd throw that in there because I think it's it's you know, the written word is as important to you as maybe the the visual word uh as it is to me in terms of books, written books, photo books, um, blogs, newsletters, poetry, whatever it might be.
Tell us why Substack and and how you've been enjoying that and what it what it what you get from it.
Yeah, uh it's been a year now uh that I kind of started to to build an appetite for meaning, more meaningful, deeper dialogue.
Uh I mean we all know what's happening to social media.
It's uh still a miracle that so many people use it while it's in the hands of of absolutely the wrong people.
But yeah, we're kind of addicted to it, I guess, and entire businesses are building it, mine included.
So it's been very hard to build down that presence uh without seeing the whole thing collapse.
So my answer to that has been to start doing Substack.
Um, and of course, we see Substack growing as well, and and some people argue it might, in the end of the day, also end up in those same hands.
No one knows, but at the moment it feels the right platform for me to build a connection with my audience that goes much deeper than an Instagram, Instagram caption or like a three-second swipe on a platform somewhere online.
So um yeah, it it it's uh it's been a journey uh in which and from the start I I promised my audience to ride every two weeks, and then many people around me with some substack experience were warning me, be careful.
So I I kept I uh I mean I kept up with that rhythm for a fair amount of months, uh, then had a little dip because second baby came and we had to rebuild like an entire home.
Uh renovated the place, now I'm picking it up again a couple of months ago.
I I revamped the whole thing, and now I'm actually back to once a week, uh, which is even even even more intense.
But uh it's also coming from uh such an appreciation, not only for the for the audience that interacts with the work, but for just the whole experience of sitting down with a subject, thinking about it, writing about it, uh daring to be vulnerable about certain things you you you question or you that keeps you awake at night.
It's a lot of emotion in that sub stack, it's a lot of feeling.
It's not really me speaking about how to use cameras or how to build a career as a photographer.
It's a lot about well, it's like my inner struggles.
It's like it's essentially like a deep dive into what it means to build a career within this space.
And I'm just trying to be as honest uh as possible, and it seems to be resonating with people.
The feedback is incredible.
So yeah, I'm unpacking my new book there at the moment.
I'm talking about, well, pretty much anything that keeps me busy uh in in in this little life of telling stories.
Yeah, it's uh I really enjoy doing doing Substack as well.
I I mean I I don't get the audience you do, but I I would do it if zero people I I do do it.
I you know, I journal a lot and no one sees that.
But I there's an act, there's a there's this pleasure in writing, like you said, sitting down and formulating ideas onto onto paper that is is extremely enjoyable and purposeful.
Well, so let's I mean let's put it this way.
So for me, the absolute highlight of every Substack is I translate it to Dutch and I send it to my mom.
Yeah.
Right?
So I mean, we don't get to speak each other uh that deeply on about my work all the time.
Uh they live far away from where I live.
So that itself is already for me enough reasons.
So I think that's how you should look at it.
So it's not about audience size.
Uh as you rightly say, if 10 people would be writing it, I would keep writing the same stuff.
Because in the end of the day, and this is how I started to look at my career in general, it is about those 10 people that are willing to engage with your work much more than it is about 100,000 people that just swipe, swipe you away and just move on to the next person.
Yeah.
I don't swipe you away, P.
I know you don't.
Um, I love, I love, I love watching your journey.
And I I think that's that's actually this good point to to mention because you've managed to build.
We're not going to talk about social media, but you've managed to build a very engaged and loyal following.
And and for for the engagement that I see on on your Instagram or Substack or wherever it might be, there's certainly, you know, you have a you have a great group of followers, audience, you know, people that just want to follow your journey.
And I think I spoke to Wesley, um, who I know is one of your friends uh a few weeks ago on the pod as well, who and we I don't know how he does it, but he does his Substack that's very successful every week without fail.
Um and uh he's he's managed to also uh you know really really build this uh wonderfully loyal following.
But there's there's something in the process, which he talks about all the time.
I mean, a substack's called process.
He he feels that people just enjoy that connection of of going along someone's journey with them.
Um and I think you know, your your testament to that.
I think that's what why people resonate with with you so much.
Yeah, I think I mean uh Wesley's a dear friend.
He's he's helping me for a year and a half now with the realization of my next book as well.
So we've talked a lot about Substack and the role of it.
But I think it's just prioritizing Substack over anything else, uh consistency, I think is important.
He's doing it every single week now for how many editions?
240 or something along those lines, which is a crazy.
I don't know a single other person with that commitment.
So it is about intention, it is about connection, and above anything, it's about community.
All these like uh hollow terms, but they they they they certainly play a role in in building your presence on an app like Substack.
I mean, in photography in general, community is more for me more important than anything else.
It's the funding engine between all my charity work, it's the funding engine between all my expeditions.
Now I'm launching a book within that same community.
I hope they will all understand it resonates with them.
It's like they are so important in everything I do.
It's not only about uh them investing into your brand, but it's all people that become ambassadors for what you stand for.
So yeah, for me, community is more important than anything else.
And and regardless of size, that is very important to mention.
So I'm I'm super happy with uh with how it all evolved.
I could never have wished for that couple of years back for so many people to be so deeply engaging with the work.
So super grateful for that.
Well, yeah, it's well deserved.
But how do you you know throw in Substack, throw in expeditions, throw in social media?
Um how does all of this come into kind of how you uh avoid trying to preach or teach?
Because you, you know, you have you for me, you seem to be this this split responsibility artist.
You feel like you really want people to care, and we'll talk about Prince for Wildlife in a minute.
You really want people to care, but you also don't want to tell it's you don't feel as your right to tell people what to care about or how to do it.
And there's always kind of like this emotional outsourcing with photography, I feel it's like they follow you or they like a post or they can't post, they feel like they've done something, you know, especially if it's something like Prince for Wildlife where you you're promoting raising money, and you've been very successful with it, so I can't fault that.
But there is there must be some kind of frustration or desire for you to really like pick people up by their heels and just say, Why don't you fucking give a shit about some of this stuff?
Do you feel does that really get to you sometimes, or do you just kind of stay in your corner, do your thing, and hope that and just kind of hope that people do care and sit up and and recognize?
Yeah, that's uh that's a good question.
I think uh my approach is becoming twofold, more twofold.
I've been so I got to question like a while back, a couple of years back, whether I'm more of an artist or an activist.
And uh uh I think I'm becoming I'm re-becoming an artist more now.
I've been an activist for many, many years.
Um and it's kind of shocking to me that that impact uh and climate and and and whatnot is kind of completely disappeared from any political agenda in the last two to three years.
So with that, um I also kind of lost the appetite to continue fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting against it.
So uh, I mean, I'm certainly an advocate for for impact.
Uh I'm I'm a sucker for for anything that comes back to uh helping people in need or making a difference through my work.
But it's it's it's um it's a tough fight uh to keep to try and and and and keep convincing people to to contribute to something bigger than than than than what it seems, if that makes sense.
I mean, one of the reasons I I I set up Prince for Wildlife is because I wanted to use the communal power of many people believing in the same thing, and that kind of paid off.
Um we raised a lot of money for for charity, but it's it's it can be very exhausting in a way that um uh it I mean it the the mission is fulfilling.
So if you go to bed at the end of the day uh knowing that you you you are doing anything in your ability to make a difference, that there's nothing really that beats that feeling, to be honest.
And it might sound untrue, but that feeling is even harder to beat with actually making money yourself, for me at least, right?
But I came to a crossroads when when when when my family extended and became a dad, that I just had to re-look at that model, unfortunately.
Uh, so I still feel that responsibility.
I think when it comes to uh to your vision and your mission as a photographer, the only thing that really matters is that you believe in it and in this like peer pressure world, um I think kids kind of grew up these days believing that anybody else has to care about it.
So you you you tell that story because the world needs it, or there there's pressure from Friends and social pressure, there's pressure, press pressure from industries, there's social media pressure.
There's so much pressure everywhere.
But the only thing that really matters is that you question your own values and beliefs.
And if you believe in your own story, it will be much easier to convince anybody else to believe in the same thing.
And what I see happening a lot is just people doing the opposite, like questioning not necessarily what they care about, or they do question it, but superficially.
But I've been on this journey now for about five, six years, deeply finding out what is it that I care about.
And I keep going back to my desire to bring people together, to build motion and movement through community.
And uh that combined, I think, with a I've been building that one page, a document in which I clearly define my personal values and belief in life, not necessarily as a photographer.
And those two elements combined has been a driving force behind me building Prince for Wildlife and keep doing it over the years, even though it is sometimes fing hard, uh, in a world that is kind of forgetting about the value of of being there for places in need.
So yeah, it's uh I mean I I I will never give up in that regard, but um it's becoming increasingly difficult in a world and we started during COVID in 2020 2020, and that momentum is certainly gone.
Uh, we're living in a completely different world now, so it's harder to convince people to actually care about natural resources and wildlife and people that depend on it.
But it's not like I'm giving up.
It's so deeply inside my personal beliefs that I will forever keep doing this.
To know thyself is so important.
You you talked about it there, it's it's kind of really taking you half a decade to kind of really know and and with clarity what you actually care about.
And I feel like talking to so many, you know, aspiring photographers or just human beings, a lot of them are just so uh confused and overwhelmed and saturated with information or ideas or you know, like you said, pressures, social pressures, family pressures, commercial pressures, whatever it might be.
But they just they just kind of forget who they are.
And I think that's certainly as photography.
We'll bring this back to photography.
It's it's it's the most important thing to create art that not only resonates with yourself, but means something to other people that you can put out there and can have an impact.
Um you've got to really know yourself and not do it for something you think might be a reason or think someone else might need you to do it for a specific reason.
It's so important, but it's really, really difficult to do.
It takes a lot of experimentation, a lot of introspection.
So I think that was something that you you just said that I think is is really important.
But well, well, listen, I I I wouldn't I wouldn't want to be that 21-year-old kid now moving into photography.
Yeah.
Right?
It's um sometimes I wake up Yeah, well, I'm sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night like perhaps looking like someone who's very established and who knows it all and who's in line with what whatever he believes in.
You don't know like that.
I tell I tell you, I don't.
You know, I I I sometimes I feel I do, but I think self-doubt is the one thing you need to embrace as an artist.
Yeah.
And we should all embrace that more and talk about it more.
And as much as we should talk more about vulnerability.
Uh so I constantly try to fire up that conversation.
I think that is one of the the uh the reasons why perhaps my writing on Substack resonates to people, because we're all going through the same, Matt.
And um if we would speak about it more, it would be easier for everyone.
And I mean people across the spectrum.
I'm not only talking about extrovert people who are easy and sharing their emotions.
We should all talk about it more.
Also introvert people, and we should foster conversation more.
That is about sharing this human experience that we are all dealing and battling with the same things.
Yeah, and even more so now with such uncertainty of uh newsfeeds, social media, polar polarization of society, whatever came first, chicken and egg.
But we the we were talking about this in my book club at the weekend.
So many people get get um, you know, just daunted by by social media.
And they think they look at social media and think, the people that post on there, they've got their shit together.
You know, they're like, oh, they I've got I've I've nailed it, you know, because they're posting only their best images, whatever it might be.
It's a it's a complete um mirage.
It's it's so not true.
We're we're all struggling with this.
And you know, I was I was reading um literally every guest I've had on the podcast is says the same thing.
I read so much about so-called established photographers and artists, even even posthumously, the people that lived a hundred years ago that are now considered some of the best artists ever to have lived, none of them really felt they knew what they were doing or were certain about having a level of success or established presence in that world.
Alex Soth just brought out I I watched a video of his, he's been silent for a year, but I watched a video of his the other day, and it was just 30 minutes of uncertainty.
And you would think that this guy has done everything in the in the photography world.
Um so yeah, we're all human at the end of the day, and it's just getting more and more difficult for us to really kind of come together for a start, but really understand that you know no one's got their shit together, and that's okay.
That's part of the beauty of life.
We're all figuring it out.
And I think you're right in saying that people to get people together to kind of create a bigger impact than just us as individuals trying in our own little bubbles is is extremely important.
Um yeah.
Yeah, and and so uh trying to create a space within my work to for people to feel accompanied in their you in that human loneliness and in that like human uncertainty, that kind of over time became something I keep going back to.
And it's something that in the future will play a very big role uh in in the type of work I do, in the stories I work on.
Uh, but in all honesty, sometimes I'm also just having this like brain fart that says, let's just stop and do something that gives me more stability and that gives me perhaps less happiness.
But so we all go through this, you know?
Uh it is one big question mark.
And so whether it's AI or or or politics or it's all do you use uh AI for at the moment?
Just out of interest.
But giga giga giga pixel pixeling my files now.
Well, so uh I use chat GPT.
I've I used I uh I use ChatGPT a lot for ID generation in terms of like uh I give you a good example.
So um uh and I'm just open about this.
I went to Chile for the last final production run of my book, and I found it incredibly useful to just have long conversations with with uh ChatGPT in contextualizing, for instance, how to photograph um loss of identity in a tree.
Just random, but just a stupid example.
And I've been going through all the social layers of my upcoming book.
And for each social layer, I've been going through this conversation with ChatGPT and they've defining how you could potentially photograph a certain subject layer in a certain scene just to brainstorm ideas.
Whether or not has it has led to images that will make it into the book, I don't know, because you still have to go out into the field and do the work.
Uh but it's I think it is an incredible tool for a generation of uh visual concepts.
And um it's essentially like a almost like a conversation with yourself through talking to your computer because you find out about the meaning of the work in a different way.
So not everything is bad about it, uh uh aside from, of course, like generative AI when it comes to visual assists, something that just literally makes my hair stand up.
Uh makes me angry on many levels.
But I think it also creates, I mean, I honestly think the currency of the future will be authenticity and reality.
I don't see any world in which humans would not want more reality.
So I think it's a as much as it is a threat, it is at equal measurements an incredible opportunity within the industry to all reconsider your true authenticity within the work you do and whether or not that is real or whether it's made up.
And and and I can safely say that um from a personal perspective, anything I see that is fake, and I know we get into a world where you can't distinguish anymore, but I think there will forever be an eye, a human eye, for real for real storytelling.
So as much as that keeps me awake at night, it somehow gives me some form of comfort that less people will be inclined in to invest in reality, but those people will probably invest much more into it.
Yeah, I I mean we're all we're already seeing the start, the the conception of that.
I think even with people I I chat to on Instagram, they they're worried that I'm an AI bot.
Right.
So there's there's now there's an immediate well.
If you're an AI bot, then obviously and I'm the same.
Like, well, I don't want to talk to you.
Any customer cares.
Like if I know that's an hour, no, speak to a human.
And I know that's different, but certainly on a social aspect, if if I know I'm connecting with a human, there's it's just a completely different playing field.
And and the same with photography.
I think AI art, visual art will have its place and already does, but it'll be separate.
And I I totally agree with you.
I think the currency of the future is authenticity, but whether that's in a written form or uh literal form or visual form, whatever it might be, people will be starving for that.
And um I think it's gonna make photography more valuable.
Uh that doesn't mean to say that it's easier for us right now, but uh yeah, I I have faith.
Um hopefully that's well placed.
But t tell me, let's let's let's go into um what we really want to talk about, which is you know, you you mentioned it, your project down in Chile.
This has been uh, you know, I heard about this when we first met, and you've been working on it for years and years.
But I'll let you tell the audience uh everything you can about this project that you're willing to share, um and and give us some insights as to to what is because it's very exciting.
I'm super keen to to see the book eventually, but tell us tell us as much as you can about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, so um yeah, I first got to the region.
The region is Magallanas, uh, which is in the furthest southern region of Chile and Patagonia.
So we're looking at uh almost falling off the continent.
It's an area around a city called Puerto Natales for the people that are listening listening that have been to that area.
Uh it's a region I first got to in 2018, not really looking for a project, pretty clueless about photography in general.
Uh, on a road trip, eight months with my girlfriend, now wife.
Uh, not really having a plan, but somehow along that road of driving down south, I was kind of mesmerized by a constantly returning lone stoic figure that then I learned Scarlet Gaucho.
Um later I obviously learned much more about gaucho's being a continent-wide phenomenon, like America-wide, actually.
It's essentially like I wouldn't say cowboys, but it's it's it's like it's it's uh a cultural phenomenon that is existing in many, many countries across the Americas.
But in the in the region I was I was visiting by then, uh they are referred to as puesteros, uh, which means uh I would say outpost men.
There's not really an English translation for it.
Essentially, they're they're being hired.
They're men that are being hired by ranch owners to look after the cattle and the sheep on big estancias, on big ranches that are mostly abandoned.
Uh, because the families that own those ranches they move to the cities, but they still keep the cattle.
Uh and they hire gentlemen to look after the land and after the cattle.
And uh historically, that culture has been brought into the continent uh by a big colonial wave in the late 1800s.
Uh so uh they've been a very integral part of wiping out the entire indigenous history of Patagonia.
As the sheep came, they there was a demand for, I mean, sheep and horses have been brought historically by by settlers.
And when the sheep came, they needed people to look after the sheep.
So it is actually existing within the coming of the set the early settlers in in the Patagonian region.
So um that is a little history on on the on Puesteros.
I mean, it's very, very brief.
But I was kind of crashed by um by that constantly returning figure along the road, and I felt this strong desire to kind of learn about who are these guys, but no clue where to start.
So did a bit of research online after coming home from that first trip in 2018.
And then I bumped into the work of uh Matthias Bolla, who's a Chilean Australian film director, and who back in the day was doing a nine-minute-long feature film on the very same culture, on the very same gentleman.
Uh, that film called Campesinos and Vimeo, for people who want to look it up.
And uh it seemed that we both had an interest in um in a similar, similar type of story.
Uh, but I was kind of clueless on how to tackle doing more work in that region and didn't really have the network.
So we started chatting in 2019 into 2020.
Then we were planning to go back for the first time for like a joint production, but then COVID happened, uh, which was sad because it was all set up and I was kind of ready to dive deeper into the story, but but but it also proved to be an opportunity in which we started to work on a script for a longer film, uh, a longer feature film.
And while brainstorming how that film should play out, we started both started to learn more about the about the project in a way that uh poetry was was a way for me to to to dive deeper into the subject matter.
Um I I read many different, I mean translated many different poems being written by poets in the region.
Um one of those poets also at a much later stage starts is now playing a role in contextualizing the work.
Um uh but yeah, poetry for me was a way to really learn about those gouchos and and where they come from and what what what what goes on in their heads uh in one way or another.
So then in 2021, we went back for the first time, and that was the start of a five-year-long uh uh, I'd say, production period in which we went back a multitude of times in all different seasons, uh uh in a very small crew of three people, uh Matthias being a film director, Miller being cinematographer, and myself as a photographer, with the aim to dive deeper into the lifestyle of uh uh of that Puestero culture.
So we step one was to define uh several individuals, and that's been one of the hardest parts in the beginning, because none of them are actually waiting to be documented.
It's uh it's a culture that that historically is not running towards a camera, but rather away from it.
So it's been taking the first two years of the project was mostly doing that, has uh been relationship building, it's a lot of investing, um actually finding those guys.
And many of them live in extremely remote places, mostly alone.
Some live with work with workmates.
Um, she has across the entire region, but in a one way or another, we found our way in.
And um at first instance, it felt like I was doing a story on um on the duality of isolation, which is partly it's still about that.
I mean, on the one hand, you can see these guys um battling with the mental consequences of living an entire life in isolation.
Uh, one of the most beautiful things ever said about this culture um is in order to come to this land, you need a past to forget.
And I learned over time that all of these guys we were spending time with, they were more or less essentially all like walking away from something, whether that is something very severe that shaped them in their child, in their childhood, a bit more superficial subject matter, but they were kind of walking away from something, ending up in this southern region, all looking for income, looking for money, looking for opportunity.
And they somehow got stuck in that lifestyle, starting to see themselves as a perpetual victim of the circumstances, but at the same time, they were also very aware of perhaps uh featuring as a last generation of a disappearing cultural phenomenon that is the posteric culture.
So in in the beginning of the story, I was I was aiming on finding um uh a visual representation of that duality of loneliness.
So, on the one hand, battling with the mental consequences, there's relatively high suicide rates, there is very high alcoholism within the communities.
Uh, there is a lot of like mental hardship that comes with living a life alone.
But at the same time, I could see these sit these guys also carry that degradation of their culture and the awareness of featuring perhaps as the last generation in this lifestyle with a form of resilience and dignity and pride that I never saw anywhere else before.
So I came to the to the region wanting to do a story about the two-sided relationship with isolation.
But over time, and as these relationships deepened, and by spending some more time with them somewhere in the middle of the project, we for the first time got invited to stay over in their little puestos.
So they mostly live, they're called puesteros because they live in puestos.
Puestos are like outposts in the corner of the land.
Uh historically, this culture has been abused and neglected for years.
Uh, they they they are not treated very well.
Uh they are underpaid, they're under underappreciated.
So they kind of hid away in the corner of the land looking after the cattle.
So uh we we got invited in the middle of the project, somewhere in 23, to stay over in that first puesto, and that kind of changed the entire dynamic of the making of the work, and it pushed it into a complete different direction, still with a little focus on on that that that loneliness that is so prevalent in the area, but more making me aware that it might be a story that is about aging and about endurance and survival.
Uh, so that was a big turning point in the making of the work.
And now, after, I mean, two more years down the line, I can see that uh the entire narrative around aging is becoming the the most obvious layer in the work.
I hope so.
When when when people see the book.
Fascinating.
So so how who pays who owns the land?
They don't own the land, they don't own the cattle, they're just working for uh some some guy that owns it, or is it government land, or what's the structure?
Yeah, so so one line one one one powerful line that keeps coming back in many of these interviews with it with these guys is that they all say something along the lines of what a shame it is to come to love this land that isn't that is not mine.
What a shame it is to come to love the land that will never be mine.
So none of these guys owns any of the land.
Uh so that brings me to another layer in the story, which is about ownership uh and and living on a land that kind of you feel so connected to, but that has absolutely no ownership, any form of ownership.
So they are being uh employed by people that own the land.
Uh let's not go too deep into land ownership, that's a different discussion, but uh, let's keep it small and and and focus on one or two estancias.
So the estancia is owned by a family, the family lives in the city.
Uh they still have a small portion of the portion of their business being wool or sheep meat.
Uh it's much smaller than it was before because the entire region has been kind of taken over by China.
So Patagonia is not like the global uh manufacturer of wool anymore.
But every every other family has has still a little portion.
They're all moving into tourism more now these days.
So there's still the asteria, someone has to look after it.
They're hiring a guy, putting him in a little shed in the corner of the land.
Every now and then check in with him.
And that person is looking after all the possessions, the farm and the animals.
So how did you uh for for those people that may be listening or watching and want to kind of do similar experiences, similar photo work?
How do you there's one thing saying keep going back and give it time, but how do you approach a culture and a subculture and a, you know, uh a cohort of people that don't want to be photographed or don't want to be filmed and that are quite instinctively um sheltered from that and shy away from it?
Was this an intentional process that you wanted to attack, or were you just kind of hopeful each time you went back?
And you know, if we could break break in a little bit more, but you you again, there's this kind of tension between wanting to push it for the sake of what you want to get out of it without respecting, you know, their environment and their hospitality, et cetera, et cetera.
So tell us a bit about that.
Well, when I started, when I came here for the first time and also for the second and the third time, I was not not really having a final form in mind.
I uh the first couple of trips, I was aware that I was going back to the same place, obviously, but I was not really doing that with a project ID in mind.
So looking back now, that was actually the the phase of the project where I first discovered this might might be a project, right?
So so I think it is kind of important.
Uh so I'm not I'm not the proof of that, but I think it is important when you do start a project that you do think about a final form in one way or another.
So the film and the book started to grow on us, obviously, uh during the making of the project.
It's also hard defining the end now.
So defining the start in the end and kind of struggling with when exactly, but um, yeah, and and working.
Um if I look back now, the first advice I would give to people is if you want to work on a longer form body of work, and this again doesn't uh I mean I'm not in the right position to say that, but this is what I've learned, is it's better to do it close to home and not far away for obvious reasons, but also for the fact that we've the best pictures that I ever took in this project project have been the ones I never took.
Because we were not there, right?
So many times we were informed about certain events or uh just the sudden turns of events, or uh like whether it's uh it's on an individual level or within the region or within the bigger picture, uh, and we were not able to go, we were not there, we were not even going anytime soon.
This project has been heavily depending on external funding.
It's entirely self-funded.
The productions are expensive.
Uh, even though we do work on a very, very low-key level with a small team of three people, it just takes a lot of money to work on this for six years.
So, my number one advice would be find a story you care about that is actually close to home.
Which also brings me to the point that after doing this book, my focus will have to go to a project closer to home, uh, to just practice what I'm what I'm now preaching.
So, that having said, if you do want to uh engage in in telling a story about a place far from home, you you you, especially in a culture that is that has such a language barrier, such a cultural barrier, that is uh historically very stoic and closed, uh, it does come with a certain awareness that it takes time.
And I think six years is not a lot of time if you look at what we've achieved and the work that we've realized.
And I would love to continue on for another six years, and I actually might.
Uh, but it kind of feels like the right moment to bring the book into the world now.
But but yeah, you you you kind of again, we're going back to the same uh same thing we discussed before.
I think it all comes down to um daring to be vulnerable yourself if you expect other people to do the same.
And uh for me, this whole journey has been one of self-discovery from beginning to end.
I learned throughout the making of the project that um I mean, I I'm aware that I have a history with anxiety.
Uh it's not something I learned through the project, it's been ongoing in my entire life.
I've always feared being alone as a kid.
Um, I kind of grew up fearing being alone, uh, partly in a physical sense when I was younger, but when growing up also certainly in an existential sense.
Uh, the idea that nothing anchors you kind of kind of can kind of thinking.
So uh for me, what like in two years into the project, I've discovered for the first time that that was perhaps one of the first things that unconsciously has been drawing me into this culture.
The fact that these men are existing within that discomfort and solitude with a ability that is completely gone in the world I come from.
Right?
So being alone here with all the distractions available kind of makes me not really able to be alone anymore, if that makes sense.
So even though I do know that I have this very strong uh history of anxiety around this whole theme, I came to the region to seeing them on the one hand battling with the consequences, and on the other hand, just existing within it.
And there's this great quote uh by Peter Matissen that I think is so powerful within that context.
It's the great stillness in these landscapes that once made me restless, it seeps into me day by day.
And with it, the unreasonable feeling that I have found what I was searching for without ever having discovered what it was.
And that is exactly how I felt.
I I somehow in the middle of this project, I was like, wow, this is so much more about myself and my personal relationship to the subject layers you work on, because you kind of define these like subject layers into a story.
So for me, that was like such a beautiful awakening.
And and and I think that was also the moment where I really started to open up to the idea that I needed more time, more visits, more relationship building, more intention to really understand what goes on in the heads of the people I was photographing.
And um yeah, that was that was a major turning point and changed the entire course of the project.
Were there moments that you questioned whether you had the right to continue the work, or certainly you had doubts about whether you wanted to continue the work?
Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
For sure.
I mean, you always go back to that one central question, like, how do these people need to benefit?
What are what like what why am I doing this?
Right?
Like, um Well, how how did you get that out uh you know, what's in it for them essentially?
How did you were there any breakthrough?
I know you can't answer this question really, but I really want to ask, like, how did you break through to them to get them to form a relationship with you and to to accept you essentially?
Well, it's through being with them, I discover that that is it, these men are not asking for any pity or a pat on their back or or for any support, right?
And they are deserving a lot more admiration and honor uh for a life, a lifestyle lift on the land, taking care of these animals, um uh really serving uh a cost that is so much more bigger than their own.
So over time it became uh almost like a desire to pay a tribute to to these men much more than anything else.
And we've been kind of um safeguarding the fact that we want them to tell their own story.
Uh and it's not us coming from a foreign perspective uh telling their story, which has been the most the hardest part of this project has has been to constantly have the awareness that we want them to tell their own story.
It's one of the reasons why we decided for the film to be entire interview-based.
Uh so I mean, you wouldn't see a single person sitting in front of a camera speaking to a camera, but all the all the all all of the stories you hear are first-person experiences of them speaking about their own lives.
And all the footage you see is essentially them living that life.
And I think the book is doing the same.
I I at least I hope so.
I I hope the book is uh is able to uh to serve as a uh uh a tribute to to them in the first place, but work as a uh for the viewer of the book, hopefully work as a opportunity to feel accompanied within that human loneliness, uh and perhaps consider their own relationship to things like culture, nature, tradition, which are as I said, uh very hollow terms.
But uh if the the book for me would be success if the people looking at the book and watching the images kind of feel that they they're they accompanied within being lonely, if that makes sense.
So that is one side of the of the impact I hope the book will make.
Uh if you go back to the question, are they how are they benefiting?
Uh see what the the story is about like uh um 12 different people, all living individual lives, some know each other, some don't.
Um carry an awareness that that understands that they might uh play an actor in a story that is about their own life, and they might be forever um solidified as the last generation of this culture.
On the other hand, some of these men uh come from a complete different mental place and they don't have that awareness, and that is fine, right?
So we've been navigating that a lot whether or not they should all be on the same page uh in in in in understanding that they feature in this story as potentially the last generation of their kind.
But um yeah, so of course there's like a portion of the sales goes back to your local charity that does really I mean, there's so many things we haven't even spoken about.
But one of the biggest fears of many of these men is is the fact that they fear retiring more than they fear dying.
Because none of almost none of them have family, standing family members.
None all only one of them has kids.
So no one has a social welfare setup or like a backup plan B, like a retirement plan in place or savings or or a uh a regional government that they or a local government that takes care of them.
There's a little bit of pension money saved, but it's never enough to sustain 10, 15, 20 years after retiring of living in a living this lifestyle.
So in a way, when when their bodies are giving up, which is literally what we've been witnessing with all these men, because they're all in between, I'd say, 55 and 75 years old, some even older.
So when their bodies are giving up and they're not able to do this backbreak backbreaking labor anymore, then who is taking care of them?
No one, right?
So for them, retiring is is scary, scary stuff.
So there's an organization, and increasingly there's more efforts being done by local authorities to provide retirement homes for people like like them, and and parts of the of the project will benefit those organizations.
So that that's certainly in place, but in the end of the day, uh that's not solving the issue uh for these men, because in the end of the day, they're alone, not being able to sustain the life anymore, and then what?
So we've been going through so many events with them in which I can tell you in just mind-blowing anecdotes of navigating that reality with them, not only as documentary filmmakers or photographers, but as friends.
Because we've been visiting them for years on end, and you at some point you become friends, and it you become very close, and uh you so that's for me, uh that was the first time I was navigating that internal dialogue of uh am I here as a friend or as an independent documentary filmmaker that is telling a story.
And we're literally talking about heavy, heavy meta of like um a story I'll never forget is uh uh one of these uh puesteros uh got a phone call that retirement was there and he could pick up his retirement money.
And we we were there when that happened.
So we went with him to pick up the money.
And him being a heavy alcohol addict, uh, right after picking up the money, we walked into a bar and started drinking it.
And knowing his history of heavy drinking and how little uh that actual pension money is, you we were filming inside that bar in town.
Uh, you come to a certain point in which you you question yourself, like, what should I do?
Like, should we step in?
Should we support him?
We could see him getting pissed drunk at the bar without having any plan B, you know?
So uh that that is a good example of uh uh of of um working on on a story that at some point you start questioning yourself what uh what is the reason I'm doing this.
So yeah, it's the first time I've I've worked on such a long-term project.
It's the first time I'm I've I've worked on something so uh uh dear to myself, but but yeah, it's uh it's new, kind of new.
Uh and it's scary to send this work into the world now because at the first place I don't think there's ever an end to this.
I could continue working on it forever.
Uh but at the same time, because it is so personal and because it is about people that kind of feel so dear to me and connected, uh you kind of start questioning every single detail of the story.
Yeah.
Fascinating.
And uh yeah, I'm sure we could talk for many uh podcast episodes about those anecdotes and those experiences you had, and that's part of the the beauty of of developing stories like this is those relationships you make, right?
And those experiences.
But I was more interested in the um the the way you were able to break through initially into you know the how you handled the the not the just the relationship building, but the fact that you were interested in making photographs and making a film.
You kind of knew that from 2021 that what you were interested in if this could be a thing photographically, how you then communicate that to essentially at the time, the subjects of that the the the the body of work that you're hoping to make without kind of being able to offer anything in return.
There's there's it sounds transactional, but in those uh initial moments and initial meets and initial experiences, it is you're feeling out each other in, you know, they know that you're there for something that you want.
But that there's a there's a part where you break through and you become close and you start to accept each other.
And then making the work is is not easier, but it's a little bit more um, it's it's it's a bit a little bit more allowed and you can go a little bit more freer because you you have that trust with the other humans.
But I I'm really kind of fascinated about how someone like yourself or any of us that want to take photographs of people essentially, it's the kind of the human factor of it.
But building up that trust and that knowledge and that relationship.
That's there's a moment, and certainly those initial moments where you're like, well, how do I uh how do I even get it across to them that I, you know, I want something from this, but I don't want to put them out and I don't want to intrude what's in it for them?
Where is this all gonna kind of mesh and meet together?
Um, maybe you you you can touch on that quickly.
I know we're running out of time, but um so uh I have to, yeah, I have to uh uh uh answer this question.
There's only one way you can answer this question, and that is that uh everything we've done in that region is down to the consistent commitment of Matthias being the director of this film as an uh anchor point in building the relationships.
So working in a team of three has been incredibly challenging from day one, as in uh I was used on doing all the work alone, usually, uh which means that in these small confined spaces, mostly indoors because the weather is just often very gnarly in Patagonia.
So you're working in these extremely small homes, often like 20 square meter cabins with two massive tripods, one with a film camera and one with a photo camera.
And you're sitting with three human bodies in front of someone that is uh initially not necessarily keen on sharing a story, is obviously super hard.
So from a very early stage, we decided to divide the tasks in a way that Matias was leading all the interviews uh with full attention, without any uh uh distraction of having to look at footage or operate cameras or uh do anything technical.
Whereas me and Miller decided to just step back, literally step back to the background and let Matias lead all the interviews.
And that has been fundamental in the building of trust and the gaining of this intimate look into their world.
Because we've always prioritized that setup in a way that Matias has always been in charge.
So the way he's been navigating the building of these relationships with very genuine care, patience, and uh caution in the first two years of the project has laid a foundation for doing the later work.
So that is also one of the reasons why I decided to shoot this entire project on a tripod uh and on analog uh and on analog medium format film.
Because I needed to find a different way of working.
I couldn't be that like fly-in-the-war guy anymore, stepping in and out of frames all the time in the first place because we were prioritizing the interview, but in the second place because we decided that uh Miller, the cinematographer, always had right of way, because I pitched to come on board with them making a film and not the other way around.
So I had to accept playing a secondary role in the making of this work, which was very challenging at the start.
But when I found the methodology to operate in a different way, so people often ask about the aesthetics of the work, and uh for me picking those cameras and putting them on a tripod and actually operating the camera as if it is a large format analog camera, which it isn't, kind of completely put me into a different mindset and methodology and made it much easier for me to accept that I was sitting out and interviewed that that's often like a couple of hours, two, three, four, sometimes even longer, hours of sitting indoors and just analyzing if I can get one or two images within this day, what would that image be?
Which is a whole different way of working, but it was fitting that the making of this works so much better than just hopping around everywhere, inside, outside, and just shooting whatever you think is interesting.
So um, yeah, a massive tribute, and I've said this a lot uh already to people, but a massive tribute to to uh the setup of the team and Matias' role in in shaping this project, and uh there's no chance I could have done this work without without him.
So over time, obviously, you you become more a body of one.
So I have I'm just coming back from Chile, and I have to say that the best work of the project has been photographed in the last three weeks, even though some earlier productions have been like eight weeks at a time, often.
But you it kind of proves that the longevity of the relationship is really paying off.
Like the last trip we just rocked up on.
These farms.
There's no literally no icebreaking happening anymore.
They are welcoming us with open arms.
We stay over in their homes.
We just get drunk often together.
And the next morning we start the work.
And that is a testament to the care and the patience that we've used in the beginning of very carefully navigating the trust that is needed to get into those homes.
Yeah.
Well, having having had the privilege of seeing some of your images already, not from your recent trip, but yeah, there's there's definitely um you know evidence of that trust and that relationship in those photos.
So um we're excited to see the book.
Tell tell tell us about when we're gonna see the film, when we're gonna see the book, how it's come about.
Give us give us the pitch.
I've just launched a Kickstarter campaign, which is live now.
Uh and that Kickstarter runs for four weeks.
And uh I'm giving out a book with um an absolute dream publisher I've been wanting to work with for a long time called Ghost Books, UK-based in London.
Um, sequencing the book with Stuart Smith.
Uh, I've been working with him side by side for the last three, four months now.
Uh and it's it's been a very challenging but rewarding journey of finding the final sequence.
But it's locked in now.
The book is going live in August 26, which means that during this four-week Kickstarter, I'm hoping to raise as many funds as possible.
In fact, if we if we get to the goal, uh the book will actually happen.
Uh so I'm really making this a community effort.
I'm really hoping that that all those years of sharing about the work uh makes people consider purchasing a book or a print.
Uh, we've got a Kickstarter built with all these different tiers.
People now can get like Kickstarter rates on the book, on sign books, special rates on prints.
Like many of the things we uh that many of the products we are selling now won't ever sell again at those rates.
So it is a good time to buy now.
And 100% of the money raised is going straight to the publisher, and that is being used to finance the entire production of this book.
Uh so we're printing one and a half thousand copies uh and hope to sell as many as we can in that in that uh Kickstarter campaign.
And then the book will go into print over summer.
Uh and then towards August, that will be the uh well, I hate the world the world international global lounge, but that's actually what it is.
So we're launching for an international audience somewhere in in August with probably a like a kickoff lounge party in Amsterdam, uh, hopefully with an exhibition.
I'm working on that now.
Then the film is in production in full motion at the moment.
Obviously, it's uh much more expensive production than the making of the book is, so we're like heavy, heavily relying on uh on finding funding to keep pushing for a final film.
I have to say we're very deep into uh have locking in a final sequence, uh, which then brings us to uh the whole production of the actual film, like sound design, composing music, color grading, and whatnot.
So we're still aiming to send a film in for a film festival somewhere towards the end of the summer of 26.
So that means that that would mean that timings of the book and the film would align ideally.
Um so if anybody is listening that would have any funding context, that would always be very welcome.
Um the film is this depending on on foreign investment.
So yeah, if all goes well, uh both will launch in August 26th, uh, and then we're sending this story into the world.
Wow, I'm so excited.
Um you're probably excited and apprehensive at the same time, but um Yeah, so I'm uh I'm I'm more frightened than excited to be honest.
But uh it feels good to keep those anxiety levels low.
Yeah, I haven't been sharing much of the work.
In fact, I think uh I haven't been sharing any of the work, and I've been sharing a lot of the work in like BTS, but the actual images that will feature into the book, which is a number along the lines of 55 final images, none of them have been seen in the light of day.
So it's it feels like sending something into the world.
I have absolutely no clue whether people understand it or not.
Yeah, you don't have the the social media validation behind you.
Um why why go why Ghost?
Uh you know, I know that's one of your favorite publishers and has been for a for a long time, but to tell us for the for those that are listening, watching that may not know much about Ghost or about publishing in general, g give us a history as to why that was a dream partnership with you.
Yeah, so um Ghost is a publisher that has for me a very strong portfolio of working with uh like as emerging artist.
I do consider myself an emerging artist, as well as lifetime achievement established work.
Like I just recently did a book with Don McCullen, like one of the OGs uh still alive today.
So um, and Larry Selton, like they work with some pretty, pretty big names, but at the same time, they create space for uh uh for people building their way into the craft.
I think that is a beautiful, beautiful combination.
Dan Stewart, the founder of Ghost, uh uh has an incredible eye for curation and sequencing of books.
It's very, very known within the industry as as one of the best in that regard.
So it's a massive honor to work side by side him and I mean sequencing a story that you're so personally connected to has been a journey as well, to say the least.
So seeing him make certain decisions and then the whole collaborative approach of finding like a flow in this book, like a rhythmic flow that kind of functions as poetry almost has been such a rewarding uh uh journey.
So, yeah, I um it's uh they have very good establishment within the US market.
They've got like a distribution center in Europe as well as in the US, which makes shipping much more affordable for international backers of the project.
So that is another reason.
I mean, there's a lot of elements come into play.
I certainly considered self-publishing, but the credibility and the distribution that comes with working with a respected publisher is something I was really, really keen on.
I'm hoping this book to be sent into festivals somewhere down the down the end of this year, uh, and just see if we can really get some some eyes on on this story and and and yeah.
So it's uh I think it's honestly I'm not saying this because uh I want to sell them, but it feels like the best possible partner to to to bring this project to life with.
Yeah.
In an interesting approach with the with the Kickstarter.
I I don't know if that's a common approach, but um seems to be an intelligent one where risk is is hedged a little bit um with with that type of thing.
So well, see, book so so uh I'm sure you know this, but bookmaking is not making anyone rich these days, certainly not photographers.
So um I I long ago I accepted already that I would never in a million years earn back this the money I've invested in this project because it's been self-funded from day one.
Uh obviously the book is like a massive credibility asset, but not necessarily a financial asset.
So the way many of these publishers work nowadays, uh a few exceptions here and there, is that you just pay them a lump sum and then they take over and they realize the entire production of the book.
So that means that Kickstarter becomes an interesting tool to uh to involve your community and do it together.
And as you know, I'm a very keen and avid believer in the power of community.
So I'm really hoping with this book that people will stand up and see the value of it and make it a communal effort of bringing this story to life.
So it's not only me doing it, but together, all the people that have been following the unpacking of the story, they contribute a little bit in their own way and then get a book in return later in the year.
Cool.
Well, hopefully I'll be one of those Kickstarters, and um I wish you the best of luck with it.
I I don't think I need to, but uh, you know, I know that you you would appreciate all the luck from everyone out there.
So it's gonna be uh it's gonna be a wild success.
I know that uh easy for me to say, uh, but it's interesting watching the journey and um super proud of you and extremely happy for you, and I can't wait to get my hands on the work.
So thank thanks for joining me, Pete.
Yeah, thanks for thanks for the opportunity, man.
It's been a pleasure.
Yeah, it's been a pleasure as always.
And uh hopefully see you at some point this year, if not on a trip maybe in Amsterdam or I certainly hope so.
Yeah.
All right, Pete, take good care.
Thanks so much for joining.
Yeah, man.
Thanks, thanks for the opportunity.
It's been a great chat.
Yep, thanks, Pete.
Cheers, man.
Cheers, bye-bye.
If you stayed with this conversation until the end, there is a good chance that you're someone who values depth, reflection, and taking time with ideas rather than just rushing past them.
That's the spirit behind my voice alchemy book club.
It's a monthly space where photographers and creatives alike come together to sit with meaningful work, photo books, books, essays, and long-form projects and talk honestly about what they're seeing, feeling, and trying to make themselves better.
It's quiet, it's thoughtful and intentionally human.
There's no pressure to perform, no need to have answers.
We're all just figuring it out.
It's just time and space to reconnect with others, your work and your thinking.
So if that sounds like something you would benefit from, you can find more information via the link in the notes and the description below.
Hope to see you there.