146 - Take care of your mental health with Ann Jeffers

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<v Wojciech>Hello everybody, welcome to the Fire Science Show.

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<v Wojciech>Some time ago I've read disturbing reports saying that 39% of graduates, phd students and people going into academia have some sort of lesser or more severe depression and anxiety.

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<v Wojciech>This is kind of ridiculous and I have no number for engineers, but I would say the mental health landscape in our profession sounds pretty much similar as in academia.

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<v Wojciech>I mean, who has not dropped a night because of an important deadline coming, or crunched a project or maybe had too much on their table with clients requiring quick results on very complicated topics?

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<v Wojciech>I mean, we're doing fire safety engineering after all.

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<v Wojciech>It's not a simple matter.

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<v Wojciech>Yet we have to deliver quickly, on time and the best work because a lot of projects depend on us.

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<v Wojciech>Mental health is no joke and in today's episode we will not have a lot of fire science in it, although we will have a fire scientist will not have a lot of fire science in it.

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<v Wojciech>Although we will have a fire scientist.

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<v Wojciech>We will be discussing mental health and mental illness, and I would normally not do such an episode in the podcast, never planned to do topics like this in the show, but I'm very encouraged by my guest.

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<v Wojciech>She's a professor at the University of  Ann, Arbor, and she's a professor in structural fire safety, a very renowned scientist, professor Ann Jeffers, and recently in IFSS.

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<v Wojciech>I've learned that Ann, besides being a successful academic which I knew about her she's actually battling a mental illness.

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<v Wojciech>In her case that's bipolar disorder, and you'll definitely learn more about the illness in the podcast episode.

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<v Wojciech>Anyway, Ann was going through major shifts in her career, approaching her tenure when her illness was at its worst, and she's been pretty lonely with it.

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<v Wojciech>She's been struggling with it, she found help and today, when she is much better, she's trying to be a mental health advocate.

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<v Wojciech>So perhaps others who are going through mental illness can learn from her experience and those who are not burdened with mental illness.

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<v Wojciech>Everyone has mental health, after all.

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<v Wojciech>You don't have to be ill to feel very bad, and mental health is also something that you have to take care of.

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<v Wojciech>Her recovery to the good state that she's in today was obviously through therapy, medication, but also a lot of self-care, prioritizing sleep and other things that anyone can do to improve their own mental health.

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<v Wojciech>Some good practices which we will share, which I am absolutely sure a lot of fellow students, academics and engineers can really implement in your life, folks, we really need to take care of our mental health.

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<v Wojciech>Anne is also a published author.

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<v Wojciech>Now she has published a book about her story, a memoir.

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<v Wojciech>Can you hear the music?

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<v Wojciech>I have some links in the show notes.

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<v Wojciech>It's a very moving book that gives a background to what she felt and how did the illness look like.

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<v Wojciech>We were going to talk a little bit about that in the podcast episode, but most of it is focused on how can we care for ourselves better and how to survive in this challenging world of academia and engineering.

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<v Wojciech>Enough talking, let's spin the intro and jump into the episode.

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<v Wojciech>To the episode.

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<v Wojciech>Welcome to the Firesize Show.

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<v Wojciech>My name is Wojciech Wigrzynski and I will be your host.

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<v Wojciech>This podcast is brought to you in collaboration with OFR Consultants.

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<v Wojciech>Ofr is the UK's leading fire risk consultancy.

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<v Wojciech>Its globally established team has developed a reputation for preeminent fire engineering expertise, with colleagues working across the world to help protect people, property and environment.

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<v Wojciech>Established in the UK in 2016 as a startup business of two highly experienced fire engineering consultants, the business has grown phenomenally in just seven years, with offices across the country in seven locations, from Edinburgh to Bath, and now employing more than a hundred professionals.

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<v Wojciech>Colleagues are on a mission to continually explore the challenges that fire creates for clients and society, applying the best research experience and diligence for effective, tailored fire safety solutions.

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<v Wojciech>In 2024, ofr will grow its team once more and is always keen to hear from industry professionals who would like to collaborate on fire safety futures.

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<v Wojciech>This year, get in touch at OFRConsultantscom.

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<v Wojciech>Hello everybody, I'm here today with Professor Anne Jeffers from University of Michigan and Ann Arbor.

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<v Wojciech>Hey, anne, good to have you here.

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<v Ann Jeffers>Thank you Great to be here, Wojciech.

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<v Wojciech>I was there in the room when you gave this powerful presentation at the IFSS and that moment I knew I need to bring you to the podcast.

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<v Wojciech>And we will be talking about very important aspects of our lives as academics, as engineers, in this stressful world.

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<v Wojciech>And I must start with the fact that I'm in a way surprised and amazed by your openness and your willingness to share and help.

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<v Wojciech>Find it mesmerizing, even funny to some aspect, like you called your company mad engineer.

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<v Wojciech>Like I mean, I appreciate the humor in all of those things.

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<v Wojciech>So, yeah, you've went quite a pathway and it seems now you're in the point of it where you're simply sharing and helping others.

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<v Wojciech>What puts you on this pathway right now?

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<v Wojciech>Like to share and be so open?

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<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah, I mean, when I was going through all of this back in 2013, 2014,.

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<v Ann Jeffers>It was a very dark and difficult time, and I found that the experience was very isolating.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I didn't feel like I could talk to my colleagues about it.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I was advised not to tell my university that I was dealing with mental illness or any aspect of it, and so I kept it to myself.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I didn't share it with anyone except for my treatment team, and it was a very lonely experience.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I was untenured at the time.

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<v Ann Jeffers>In the US, we have a tenure system and, you know, before you have tenure, you don't have job security, you know.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And so I had this fear in the back of my mind that if my colleagues not just at the University of Michigan, but, you know, in the whole fire science community if they found out that I was sort of in the midst of losing my mind, they would shun me, they would, you know, kick me out of the community.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And now that I'm on the other side of that, I know that that's absolutely not true.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I've received nothing but support from the fire science community.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I mean, even being invited to give a talk at IFSS on the topic of mental health is a really big thing.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And so, you know, I thought, ok, this is the time, like now is the time to get this story out there.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And so, you know, I took the leap.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I mean, I always sort of knew that I would be open and forthright about my experience.

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<v Ann Jeffers>Just because I have tenure now and I have that protection and that job security Right, I'm in a place where I can take these risks and whatnot and I'm sort of unapologetically open about it and I honestly have no regrets.

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<v Ann Jeffers>It's been nothing but positive feedback from everybody the folks here at the University of Michigan, the folks in the fire science community so, yeah, it's really been a warming experience and it tells me that I did the right thing by sharing so much of my experience.

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<v Wojciech>Do you think if you did the same, but without Tenure Track, like in hindsight now having support, would you still be scared of like seeking help and speaking up?

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<v Wojciech>I understand the comfort that Tenure gave you, you know, and like the risks were significantly lower than before the tenure.

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<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah, it's hard to say, because I was a different person 10 years ago and different stage of my life.

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<v Ann Jeffers>You know, I think now that I'm a little bit older and wiser, you know, it's easier for me to be able to be very reflective on what it is that I'm doing and very intentional about what I put my time into, you know.

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<v Ann Jeffers>So it's hard for me to say that if I had been open I think so.

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<v Ann Jeffers>Let me say this if I had been open about my experience as an assistant professor, I think what I would have been, what I would have found, was that I would have been surprised by the amount of support that I would have found, and that, I think, is something that I learned after the fact and I hope to communicate with the audience today is that folks in the fire science community are very collegial and supportive, and it's a very small community, but it's a very close-knit community, and I think I didn't have that perspective when I was an assistant professor.

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<v Wojciech>One thing I forged some lectures you gave and I'll upload the links to the show notes so the audience can also watch the data.

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<v Wojciech>I don't want to repeat the exact content because people can go to YouTube and that's a really good lecture that you gave.

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<v Wojciech>But one thing that struck me in the lecture was when you're showing the graph, giving like it was across, one axis was mental health, one axis was mental illness, showing that those are like two completely different in a way things and to some extent related to some unrelated.

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<v Wojciech>Perhaps we should start the proper discussion by defining the terms.

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<v Wojciech>We're engineers, so what's mental health, what's mental illness, and where do those spectra interact with each other?

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<v Ann Jeffers>Sure, yeah, I mean, when I share my story, it's a story of severe mental illness.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I have bipolar disorder, which is a mood disorder, mood disorder and in addition to that I have hallucinations and paranoia that make it sort of quite severe on the mental illness spectrum, right.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And so the point of showing that graph is to let folks know that, like you know, you don't have to judge yourself in comparison to me and my story, because everybody has mental health, just like everybody has health.

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<v Ann Jeffers>Right, you can have good health, we can have bad health, and it's the same with mental health just like everybody has health right.

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<v Ann Jeffers>You can have good health, we can have bad health, and it's the same with mental health.

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<v Ann Jeffers>So you can have good mental health and you can have bad mental health.

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<v Ann Jeffers>So you know, regardless of where you fall on having mental illness or not, it's important for you to take care of your mental health and because, at the end of the day, there are folks who have poor mental health and then it could drive them into having things like depression and anxiety and whatnot, so like the situation sort of almost creates the mental illness for them and we don't want that right.

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<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah, I think you know mental illness is, say, a diagnosis that one has.

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<v Ann Jeffers>It does exist on a continuum.

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<v Ann Jeffers>There are some folks who have some depression or anxiety.

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<v Ann Jeffers>That is fairly minor in comparison to my bipolar disorder.

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<v Ann Jeffers>There are folks who have more severe illnesses, like schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder, that are more severe than what I experience, you know, and so it's on this continuum.

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<v Ann Jeffers>But my whole message is that I don't care where you live on the mental illness spectrum, we've got to take care of our mental health.

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<v Ann Jeffers>So I think that's one thing that you can take away from pretty much any talk I give.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I think I showed that slide.

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<v Wojciech>It's like just looking on the chart, it really struck me that, ok, you can be someone who has a mental illness, which is a medical condition, and have quite good mental health at that point because you take care of yourself.

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<v Wojciech>And you can be someone free from mental illness and just don't care about yourself and have very poor mental health, with outcomes that relate to that right.

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<v Wojciech>So you don't have to be ill to be in a very bad shape mentally, and that's the first realization everyone has to have.

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<v Wojciech>You don't have to be mentally ill to really suffer from issues coming from your bad mental health.

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<v Wojciech>Going back to your illness.

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<v Wojciech>Because it's like your story, you're willing to share it.

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<v Wojciech>This is quite an interesting story and, of course, let me plug the book.

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<v Wojciech>You've written a memoir about your journey.

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<v Wojciech>Can you hear the music?

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<v Wojciech>Did you hear the music really?

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<v Ann Jeffers>I did.

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<v Ann Jeffers>Actually, that's one of my hallucinations that I tend to have is that I'll hear music.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And it's interesting because you know folks who experience psychosis.

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<v Ann Jeffers>Psychosis is meaning that you have hallucinations or delusional thoughts or those kinds of symptoms.

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<v Ann Jeffers>But for folks who have psychosis, not all of the experiences are bad.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And there is one example in the book where you know, I was laying in bed and I heard this music coming from the wall and it was an acoustic piano playing this very somber tune and it was just absolutely beautiful and I wanted to like record it in some ways that I could share with the world.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And obviously I'm not a musician, I'm an engineer.

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<v Ann Jeffers>So I did not attempt to write that sheet music down, but it's interesting.

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<v Ann Jeffers>So yeah, the title does come from the fact that I do have hallucinations that include hearing music.

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<v Ann Jeffers>You know, while most of my psychosis can be quite scary at times, in general it's not all bad, and so that's sort of a a way of drawing readers in and into my experience a little bit yeah, the book is like, it's very intimate and very graphical uh record of what, uh what was in in your head.

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<v Wojciech>I, I enjoy reading that, that book, even though it's not an easy book to read, but it's written in an approachable and nice way.

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<v Wojciech>Actually, it reads like a, like a real book and you're a real writer Like a proper book, a proper well-written book.

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<v Wojciech>Anyway, the book starts 2013, when you were diagnosed, but your condition did not start that year.

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<v Wojciech>So you also recollect in your talks that it was something that was with you for a longer time.

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<v Wojciech>So perhaps can you tell me a little bit more about living with a mental illness but not knowing you have it, or feeling you may have it, but not being diagnosed yet.

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<v Wojciech>What was it like?

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<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah, yeah.

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<v Ann Jeffers>So I mean, my first recollection of having any symptom of mental illness was that when I was on the age of somewhere between like eight and 10 years old, I started having these periods where I was getting like really, really sad and I would just start crying, Um, and I had nothing to cry about, Like I had a really good life, really happy childhood.

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<v Ann Jeffers>My parents, you know, loved me and my brothers and and we had everything that we ever wanted.

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<v Ann Jeffers>You know, like life was really good and yet I was so sad, you know, and I could never really put my finger on it about why that was the case, and because I couldn't explain it, I just sort of hid it and pushed it away and buried it, and that sort of became.

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<v Ann Jeffers>My way of just dealing with it in general was to just ignore it and to discount it and to move on.

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<v Ann Jeffers>When I was about 13 years old, I started to have some hallucinations.

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<v Ann Jeffers>There are a couple that I remember quite vividly, and again, I had no way to explain it and I always kind of thought if I told somebody about this they'd think I'm really unusual.

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<v Ann Jeffers>So I kept it to myself, you know, and I just sort of shrugged it off, and you know, that's just how Anne's brain works, you know, and everybody is paranoid in times in their life, you know.

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<v Ann Jeffers>So I didn't think much of it.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And so throughout college and grad school it was just a constant up and down cycle of moods and I just sort of worked with that rhythm right.

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<v Ann Jeffers>When I was feeling good, I was productive and I was getting stuff done, and then when I was depressed, I was laying in bed and sleeping it off, you know, and I just sort of rolled with that rhythm pretty much all the way till adulthood, Like you could expect the pattern or the rhythm in my case.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And so I always knew that if I was feeling really down, let's say at some point in time, I could just wait it out, and if I waited long enough, then things would get better again and I'd be up again and I'd be productive.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And so I just sort of rolled with that rhythm.

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<v Ann Jeffers>After being an assistant professor, I used some of that manic energy to do some interesting things.

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<v Ann Jeffers>There's one paper that I think of in particular where I'm the sole author on the paper, and I wrote that paper from conception to completion within the span of a week.

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<v Wojciech>Okay.

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<v Ann Jeffers>In that same week, you know, I also, like you know, did my job.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I taught my classes and met with students and I painted my bedroom, you know, at home.

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<v Wojciech>Like.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I, you know, I just had so much energy, like, at the end of the day, it's not all good, though, and that's why it's quite a challenging condition is because I'd say, like nine times out of 10, I'm not super productive, I'm struggling in some way, and in 2013, it's where things sort of came to a head, and then it got really, really bad, and then I needed to get help.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I needed to get a diagnosis.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I needed to get on.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I needed to get a diagnosis.

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<v Ann Jeffers>I needed to get on medications.

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<v Wojciech>To close up on the disorder.

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<v Wojciech>So it's bipolar disorder.

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<v Wojciech>So that's how the illness works.

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<v Wojciech>You have ups and downs, but it's just very high up, very high down.

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<v Wojciech>I assume the sinusoid is very sharp.

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<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah, everybody has ups and downs and it's just exacerbated.

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<v Ann Jeffers>And somebody with bipolar disorder and there's very different variations of bipolar disorder, the kind that I have is called bipolar one disorder and that just means that the mania gets pretty severe to the point that I start having hallucinations and stuff like that been most of their time depressed and a lot of times it's misdiagnosed as major depressive disorder because when they're up it's a hypomanic state, so it's a little bit lesser than the type of mania that I experience.

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<v Ann Jeffers>So when they're up they think that's sort of their normal operating, you know, and so it's a harder one to catch, I think.

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<v Wojciech>I mean, I can imagine that even though if you feel very good in the up period, you understand that the down period is coming shortly, so it also must build up some anxiety and then, yeah, I mean hard to imagine what you are going through.

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<v Wojciech>I mean, reading through your memoir actually allows me to get into your emotional state.

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<v Wojciech>That's what makes book really interesting that it's not just recollection, it's emotions interesting, that it's not just recollection, it's emotions.

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<v Wojciech>So it was a brilliant idea to write a book, because there is no other, there is no podcast episode or YouTube video that can transmit emotions in that way.

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<v Wojciech>You have also mentioned that during your time at Virginia Tech, there were these traumatic events, including shooting in the university campus, that left a mark on you.

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<v Wojciech>You've mentioned that, even up to the point that you were like PTSD post-traumatic stress disorder.

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<v Wojciech>So how was that part of your life and how impactful was that to like your well-being and further cause of your illness?

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<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah, I think one of the challenges, at least in I mean most certainly in America, but I think other countries have similar challenges or maybe different challenges, but are equally traumatic.

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<v Ann Jeffers>But with the rise of gun violence in America, it's become such a common occurrence, and I was a graduate student at Virginia Tech 2006 to 2009.

00:19:00.258 --> 00:19:03.555
<v Ann Jeffers>So in 2007 is the year of the shooting right.

00:19:03.555 --> 00:19:07.789
<v Ann Jeffers>So I'm a year into my PhD, and this was a time when these mass shootings were not commonplace.

00:19:07.789 --> 00:19:09.432
<v Ann Jeffers>So in 2007 is the year of the shooting right.

00:19:09.432 --> 00:19:11.775
<v Ann Jeffers>So I'm a year into my PhD and this was a time when these mass shootings were not commonplace.

00:19:11.775 --> 00:19:13.637
<v Ann Jeffers>They were sort of here and there.

00:19:13.637 --> 00:19:16.260
<v Ann Jeffers>We all thought, oh, this would never happen on our campus.

00:19:16.260 --> 00:19:21.288
<v Ann Jeffers>And I think nowadays it's a much different atmosphere.

00:19:21.288 --> 00:19:26.199
<v Ann Jeffers>Our kids in K-12 schools do active shooter drills annually.

00:19:26.199 --> 00:19:33.714
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, it's sort of like an expectation that, something that we train for, which is just a really bizarre reality in America.

00:19:34.246 --> 00:19:41.153
<v Wojciech>I really struggle to reflect on that, Like it's so odd to me, but I guess it is what it is, yeah.

00:19:41.605 --> 00:19:44.904
<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah, I agree, I think it's just completely unusual.

00:19:44.904 --> 00:19:51.710
<v Ann Jeffers>So, and I think everybody outside of America is looking at us like why don't you do something?

00:19:51.710 --> 00:19:55.192
<v Ann Jeffers>But nonetheless, this is the world that I'm living in.

00:19:55.192 --> 00:20:34.904
<v Ann Jeffers>And so in 2007, you know, I was just a PhD student and the Virginia Tech shooting I mean, most people remember it because it was such a big event, you know, it was very traumatic and had a very huge impact, being the deadliest shooting in America at the time, and I left it feeling completely depressed and hopeless and, you know, having nightmares and things like that, and I again, using my strategy of how I deal with everything related to mental health, I buried those feelings because there's one particular fact associated with my experience, which is that I was not on campus the day of the shooting.

00:20:34.904 --> 00:20:36.307
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, I was home.

00:20:36.307 --> 00:21:09.008
<v Ann Jeffers>I'd maybe watched the news the next week, you know, watching all the media, the interviews, you know whatever that came out, but I wasn't on campus, and so I didn't feel like I was entitled to any of the feelings that I had, and so I buried them, and I think one aspect that I try to bring up in the talks that I give is that vicarious trauma is a real thing, you know, it's like you don't have to actually experience the violence to have post-traumatic stress symptoms and, at the end of the day, you know.

00:21:09.067 --> 00:21:12.748
<v Ann Jeffers>If folks are dealing with those symptoms, it's really important to just get help.

00:21:12.847 --> 00:21:32.710
<v Ann Jeffers>I didn't think there was anything that could be done for it, but in 2013, I had started going to therapy for the bipolar disorder and then very quickly we realized that, like you've got some pretty serious stuff related to the trauma from Virginia Tech as well that we need to do something about right, because me, being a university professor, I'm in that environment every day.

00:21:32.710 --> 00:21:39.912
<v Ann Jeffers>I'm in the classroom, I'm you know, and so for me to be constantly on alert was just exhausting.

00:21:39.912 --> 00:21:56.834
<v Ann Jeffers>So in the book I do talk about the treatment for that, but mostly, like, the message that I want to get across is that, like you know that there's no reason to feel guilt or shame, that you need help, you know, and so, like I badly hurt, you know, there were students who had siblings who went to school there.

00:21:56.834 --> 00:22:10.192
<v Ann Jeffers>There were students who had friends who went to school there, you know.

00:22:10.192 --> 00:22:20.112
<v Ann Jeffers>And so to basically say, you know, hey, even though you're not there, you can still have those symptoms and you should probably get someone to talk to you and try to work through that trauma.

00:22:20.944 --> 00:22:40.259
<v Wojciech>Yeah, I kind of got it when in your book you bring the case where the student walked to your classroom and you felt really strong anxiety that it could be another, like shooter or something, and even though you were not in a place in danger, your fear and your anxiety was very real, you know, and that was enough for you to suffer from it.

00:22:40.259 --> 00:22:49.519
<v Wojciech>So I kind of relate that it's not just being like oh, you don't have to be physically endangered to feel the fear and the consequences.

00:22:50.627 --> 00:22:52.204
<v Ann Jeffers>There's literature to back this up, right.

00:22:52.204 --> 00:23:02.780
<v Ann Jeffers>So the World Trade Center, I think, is one of the first incidents where folks were having post-traumatic stress symptoms who were not, you know, at ground zero.

00:23:02.780 --> 00:23:09.311
<v Ann Jeffers>There were a lot of folks who just sort of they were in New York City and maybe watched it on the news or something like that.

00:23:09.311 --> 00:23:26.058
<v Ann Jeffers>And so the research on World Trade Center, on the Boston Marathon bombing, like you know, these very high profile traumatic incidents, there is research to support that folks do have these symptoms and that treatment can be effective for them.

00:23:27.066 --> 00:23:30.236
<v Wojciech>Relating to our field, like fire science.

00:23:30.236 --> 00:23:43.012
<v Wojciech>I think a similar thing could be when people work on specific projects related to specific types of infrastructure and the major tragedies happening in a similar building, and we all make mistakes.

00:23:43.012 --> 00:23:46.375
<v Wojciech>We all apply technology that may not be the best the day we applied it.

00:23:46.375 --> 00:23:51.778
<v Wojciech>You know, perhaps tomorrow someone finds that it's horrible, and then the fire happens in the building.

00:23:51.778 --> 00:24:03.625
<v Wojciech>There is this saying I'm not sure if the same thing exists in the US, but we in Poland say that I do some stuff in my engineering so I can sleep well, you know, in night, so I'm not worrying about my design.

00:24:03.625 --> 00:24:05.950
<v Wojciech>I can sleep well, you know, in night, so I'm not worrying about my design.

00:24:05.950 --> 00:24:27.256
<v Wojciech>And if I can imagine that, if there was a tragic fire in the tunnel, let's say, and then dozens of people have died, and even if it was not a tunnel in which I would personally work on, I'm sure that I would have a hard time because I've designed so many other tunnels, you know, and puzzling like what will happen.

00:24:27.256 --> 00:24:28.337
<v Wojciech>Did I make a mistake?

00:24:28.337 --> 00:24:29.359
<v Wojciech>Did I not make a mistake?

00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:34.424
<v Wojciech>And I know that these things happen to some people relating, for example, granville tragedy.

00:24:34.424 --> 00:24:42.037
<v Wojciech>I know some people were going through a really tough time, even though they were not accountants of that, even though they did not participate.

00:24:42.037 --> 00:24:49.549
<v Wojciech>It's just something that happened and I think that this is a fair comparison like it, in our words, as engineers.

00:24:50.269 --> 00:24:59.076
<v Wojciech>To go further, because it's the timeline is also interesting of your issues, because it's a timeline where you are on the pinnacle of your career.

00:24:59.076 --> 00:25:05.539
<v Wojciech>You've received the LFP, biggeston Awards, your professional like papers and everything that you look spectacular.

00:25:05.539 --> 00:25:15.884
<v Wojciech>You are a successful young scholar who's about to approach, like tenure, and then it's pretty much also the same time where you're going through the worst of your illness.

00:25:15.884 --> 00:25:21.462
<v Wojciech>You said you didn't want to bring it up because it would affect your um.

00:25:21.462 --> 00:25:30.412
<v Wojciech>This tenure process, can you tell me more Like, how did it play against your role at the university as a professor and in this advancement of a career?

00:25:31.453 --> 00:25:47.239
<v Ann Jeffers>So I would say it did not have an impact at all, or any measurable impact, on me getting tenure, because I had had so much success up to this point that, you know, I was sort of my students were publishing papers almost on their own right.

00:25:47.239 --> 00:25:51.986
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, I'm just sort of advising them and, you know, checking their work and things like that, you know.

00:25:51.986 --> 00:26:23.332
<v Ann Jeffers>So, like the research was still going along, even though, like, mentally, I was on a completely different plane from everybody else, you know, and I think, teaching as well, like, even though I had a horrible, horrible fear of teaching, I still went into the classroom and did it, you know, and I would be like talking about, like I don't know, gauss quadrature in the finite elements class, and then in the back of my head I'm thinking like, oh, my goodness, like I'm, you know, something's gonna happen today, you know, and I'm still, you know, just focus on Gauss quadrature, like let's just get through this material.

00:26:23.332 --> 00:26:32.467
<v Ann Jeffers>And you know, so it was like sort of a bit of luck that I have the skill to be able to talk about one thing and think about another, you know.

00:26:32.607 --> 00:26:35.340
<v Ann Jeffers>So I think that that didn't really have much of an impact, you know.

00:26:35.340 --> 00:26:36.465
<v Ann Jeffers>And then committee work.

00:26:36.465 --> 00:26:40.924
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, of course I'm still serving on committees and you know doing my work there.

00:26:40.924 --> 00:26:47.357
<v Ann Jeffers>So coming up for tenure I was just fine, even though I struggled immensely for a period of about two years.

00:26:47.357 --> 00:26:51.976
<v Ann Jeffers>But where it really hit me was was sort of after tenure.

00:26:51.976 --> 00:26:54.752
<v Ann Jeffers>I sort of had to take a big sigh.

00:26:54.894 --> 00:26:55.234
<v Wojciech>It's done.

00:26:55.424 --> 00:26:56.807
<v Ann Jeffers>And you know I was.

00:26:56.807 --> 00:27:07.313
<v Ann Jeffers>I was completely burnt out because, you know, I was doing really stressful job at the same time of dealing with a really stressful medical issue, and I was exhausted.

00:27:07.313 --> 00:27:16.118
<v Ann Jeffers>And fortunately that coincided with my wife and I trying to build our family right.

00:27:16.118 --> 00:27:18.267
<v Ann Jeffers>And so we started doing foster care.

00:27:18.267 --> 00:27:22.474
<v Ann Jeffers>And foster care is like parenting on steroids.

00:27:22.474 --> 00:27:29.246
<v Ann Jeffers>It's a very hard thing to do on steroids.

00:27:29.246 --> 00:27:33.780
<v Ann Jeffers>It's a very hard thing to do and the kids that come into your home either have trauma themselves or they have some medical needs, whatever.

00:27:33.780 --> 00:27:39.700
<v Ann Jeffers>And so we ended up adopting two kids from the foster care system, young children that we had since birth.

00:27:39.700 --> 00:27:44.171
<v Ann Jeffers>So bringing in two newborn babies, it's a lot for anyone.

00:27:44.171 --> 00:27:58.190
<v Ann Jeffers>And so then I was able to say, you know, like that was my recovery period, like I was still getting my mental health back on track, but then I was able to at least have this appearance that, like you know well, family is sort of my priority right now and that's what I'm going to do.

00:27:58.190 --> 00:28:00.355
<v Ann Jeffers>And so I took a couple of years and just focused on that.

00:28:01.404 --> 00:28:07.939
<v Ann Jeffers>I'd say it wasn't until about 2018 before like things had finally leveled off.

00:28:08.424 --> 00:28:18.417
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, all my kids were in daycare and adopted and whatnot, and my youngest had just been born at that time, you know, so she was still quite a lot to focus on.

00:28:19.244 --> 00:28:25.567
<v Ann Jeffers>But, you know, 2018, I was like, ok, you know, I'm going to start focusing on my work again and, you know, really try to get back into things.

00:28:25.567 --> 00:28:29.568
<v Ann Jeffers>And of course, then there was a pandemic, and you know I'm going to start focusing on my work again and, you know, really try to get back into things.

00:28:29.568 --> 00:28:30.990
<v Ann Jeffers>And of course, then there was a pandemic and you know, whatever.

00:28:30.990 --> 00:28:35.912
<v Ann Jeffers>But at the end of the day, you know, I'm at a really good spot right now because, I mean, my mental health is the best it's ever been.

00:28:35.912 --> 00:28:37.432
<v Ann Jeffers>My kids are older.

00:28:37.432 --> 00:28:41.233
<v Ann Jeffers>My youngest is now five years old, so they're all in school now.

00:28:41.233 --> 00:28:50.997
<v Ann Jeffers>Yes, it's hard, but at the end of the day, like you know, I can actually go into work and do my job and think about research problems that are interesting and all that, you know.

00:28:50.997 --> 00:28:56.980
<v Ann Jeffers>And so I've got several proposals that are pending right now, several ideas in the pipeline, you know.

00:28:56.980 --> 00:28:58.220
<v Ann Jeffers>So it's coming together.

00:28:58.700 --> 00:29:07.124
<v Wojciech>I think the important lessons from this story is that if you take time to sort stuff out, you're not losing that much.

00:29:07.124 --> 00:29:17.915
<v Wojciech>People often, I think, would think they lose way, way more than they actually do Because those opportunities come and go and you were able to go back on track again.

00:29:17.915 --> 00:29:29.538
<v Wojciech>Well, you never stop being successful as an academic, but you're back on track, you're doing what you've been doing and no one cares if you have a gap for a year or two or three in your resume.

00:29:29.538 --> 00:29:39.675
<v Wojciech>For me, 2018, I had somewhat similar realization in my own professional career 2018 was a difficult one for me.

00:29:39.675 --> 00:29:41.744
<v Wojciech>We had twins coming.

00:29:42.165 --> 00:29:55.848
<v Wojciech>I had two children and we learned about having twins on the way, but it was like a very 50-50 pregnancy, so it was extremely stressful, like extremely this doctor every week, are they still alive or not?

00:29:55.848 --> 00:29:57.054
<v Wojciech>Terrible.

00:29:57.054 --> 00:30:07.828
<v Wojciech>Then, after we accustomed the thought, a month later we figured out one of the daughters has conventional heart disorder, so she needed surgery at birth.

00:30:07.828 --> 00:30:20.532
<v Wojciech>Pretty much she was too small because those two medical conditions excluded each other, like you want the child to be as big as possible to do a heart surgery, but you want the child out as soon as possible when you have this type of pregnancy.

00:30:20.532 --> 00:30:25.107
<v Wojciech>So it was insane, like we've spent a hundred something days in hospitals.

00:30:25.107 --> 00:30:25.968
<v Wojciech>It's all good now.

00:30:26.388 --> 00:30:32.094
<v Wojciech>It resorted very well, but the conclusion is I had to cut myself completely out of the work, completely.

00:30:32.094 --> 00:30:37.818
<v Wojciech>I was not able to provide family and do science and do engineering at the same time.

00:30:37.818 --> 00:30:41.521
<v Wojciech>I had to completely minimize my workload.

00:30:41.521 --> 00:30:49.249
<v Wojciech>Of course, I had some requests that I could not withdraw.

00:30:49.249 --> 00:31:01.068
<v Wojciech>I remember, like you know, sitting besides a bed of my daughter at ICU translating a standard from English to Polish and having half written email to the Polish standardization committee to tell them where they can go and what to do with themselves.

00:31:02.271 --> 00:31:11.653
<v Wojciech>But well, anyway, the world did not collapse with me not being there, you know, and in the end, my career did not collapse for me not being present for a half a year.

00:31:11.653 --> 00:31:15.530
<v Wojciech>My team has not collapsed from missing me out for half a year.

00:31:15.530 --> 00:31:25.336
<v Wojciech>I was not that important to the, to the universe, and the universe seemed to be going further and I came back and then further.

00:31:25.336 --> 00:31:26.719
<v Wojciech>It's an important role.

00:31:26.719 --> 00:31:47.439
<v Wojciech>I wonder if you have to live through such a thing or you can just realize that it's not such a big deal to you know, slow down and stop, and I think for anyone who feels that there's overwhelm or struggle or anxiety building up, I think it's much better to slow down, stop recover, because mental health is called health for a reason.

00:31:47.439 --> 00:31:48.710
<v Wojciech>It is health right.

00:31:50.446 --> 00:31:56.479
<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah, I think we can get to a point of accepting that life happens without having to go through these things.

00:31:56.479 --> 00:32:14.752
<v Ann Jeffers>But you know, I think, as of us who've been there, I think it's a no-brainer right Like life is going to happen and sometimes life is hard and sometimes, you know, your family life or your personal life is just bigger than work and sometimes you have to put that at a priority over the work that you do.

00:32:14.752 --> 00:32:21.439
<v Ann Jeffers>So, yeah, I totally agree with you, at least in the US.

00:32:21.439 --> 00:32:32.651
<v Ann Jeffers>I don't know if this is true in other countries, but the evaluation process is still very, I'll say, old school.

00:32:32.651 --> 00:32:49.147
<v Ann Jeffers>So, for example, I'm an associate professor and my next promotion will be to full professor and there is like a sweet spot in terms of, like, the number of years that you can be an associate professor.

00:32:49.147 --> 00:32:54.228
<v Ann Jeffers>And if you're in that rank for too many years, then people start to like raise an eyebrow and they're like why haven't you?

00:32:54.248 --> 00:32:55.692
<v Ann Jeffers>been promoted yet you know what I mean.

00:32:55.692 --> 00:33:17.113
<v Ann Jeffers>And so, like I think in my case because I had this gap, you know, and it sort of the fallout was after I got promoted to associate professor, there is a slight danger that there could be folks who write letters of evaluation and be like why did it take her 12 years to get full professor, you know, after being promoted to associate, because I've seen it happen.

00:33:17.113 --> 00:33:21.673
<v Ann Jeffers>I don't think that's going to happen in my case because I'm doing well professionally.

00:33:21.673 --> 00:33:33.405
<v Ann Jeffers>But there is a small possibility that someone who is not being mindful could write a letter of evaluation and say you know what, she just wasn't productive enough and shouldn't get promoted.

00:33:33.405 --> 00:33:47.419
<v Ann Jeffers>So I think that the evaluation process in the US needs some reconsideration about how much weight those letters of evaluation carry or what aspects to focus on in those letters.

00:33:48.184 --> 00:33:51.992
<v Wojciech>In Europe I would say it's largely the same, especially in Poland.

00:33:51.992 --> 00:34:01.354
<v Wojciech>The evaluation is brutal and it's basically numbers, because you're not evaluated by a compassionate colleague of yours who just says and is fantastic, scholar.

00:34:01.354 --> 00:34:16.530
<v Wojciech>You're evaluated by an administrative person who just sees an Excel file with the number of citations and ish index and yes, from PhD and puts you in the bracket or as a part of you know of a distribution, and they don't care.

00:34:16.530 --> 00:34:18.054
<v Wojciech>Well, they also don't.

00:34:18.054 --> 00:34:22.235
<v Wojciech>Perhaps if you talk to them human to human level, they would care.

00:34:22.235 --> 00:34:25.288
<v Wojciech>I'm not saying that people are bad, it's just the system works like that, you know.

00:34:25.809 --> 00:34:27.896
<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah yeah, it's a system.

00:34:27.896 --> 00:34:29.481
<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah yeah, I don't.

00:34:29.481 --> 00:34:38.576
<v Ann Jeffers>I haven't thought of the solution yet, but I just I know that there's an issue where the evaluation process needs to be more forgiving of folks who have life.

00:34:38.576 --> 00:34:57.050
<v Ann Jeffers>That happens, you know, and I've talked with some colleagues about this, but I would like to in the future and take this up at least at the University of Michigan to see, like, what can we do in the College of Engineering to make sure that if somebody has a life event, that that doesn't completely prevent them from advancing in their career?

00:34:58.291 --> 00:35:08.275
<v Wojciech>This is mostly for women that if you have children or if you actually took a child from foster care, it's the same thing.

00:35:08.275 --> 00:35:32.523
<v Wojciech>You could like write off years of your post PhD because you're considered, you know, a post PhD scientist seven years after your doctorate and there are like things you can do in that period of time and you will not be able to do them outside of that period of time, like some grants and you know some positions and, for example, you can write off like a year for a child, which extends your time.

00:35:32.523 --> 00:35:37.936
<v Wojciech>I mean, I think that's one way to account for that.

00:35:37.936 --> 00:35:42.034
<v Wojciech>Another one I've heard in European ERC grants the big deal in Europe, the biggest thing you can get in here.

00:35:42.034 --> 00:35:45.434
<v Wojciech>I think they've changed the system to narrative CVs now.

00:35:45.434 --> 00:36:09.514
<v Wojciech>So it's not just, you know, a blank page listing all your achievements, it's a narrative CV where you can perhaps state those things and I think at that level, at the ERC level, if you wrote that you had a bad year, but after that you've done this and this and this and this, and then you believe that it's important to take care of yourself, I would be surprised if they gave you like a negative score for that.

00:36:09.514 --> 00:36:10.737
<v Wojciech>Oh, yes, she had a bad year.

00:36:10.737 --> 00:36:12.478
<v Wojciech>Like no one has a bad year.

00:36:12.478 --> 00:36:16.146
<v Wojciech>Why did she Like everyone?

00:36:16.166 --> 00:36:26.061
<v Wojciech>In reality, everyone does right, but indeed the academic system is very difficult, especially in countries like US or UK, where the academic promotion ladder is really brutal.

00:36:26.061 --> 00:36:35.514
<v Wojciech>It's like you know mobility, moving around, inability to find permanent positions, this brutal evaluation at all steps of your career.

00:36:35.514 --> 00:36:43.835
<v Wojciech>In Poland it's a little bit easier, though our government wants to move more to that system, which I dredge.

00:36:43.835 --> 00:36:49.371
<v Wojciech>Anyway, going back on track, we've got a sidetrack.

00:36:49.371 --> 00:36:59.811
<v Wojciech>I think people who are and it's something I would love to come out from this podcast, because this podcast is listened by students, of course but also like directors of companies.

00:36:59.811 --> 00:37:22.768
<v Wojciech>I think people should build a little bit more compassion in hiring people for that, because I mean, you're hiring real people and real people come with real problems, and I think you can get a much better employee if you are open and willing to help someone and, you know, build a relation with another human being, than hiring a robot from a robot factory that never had an issue and will never break in the future.

00:37:22.829 --> 00:37:48.532
<v Ann Jeffers>Right, I think, uh, you know you, you're absolutely right and you know you think about like sort of the contributions that folks do give, you know, and all the things that I've provided to the field of fire science or that I've done in my service to the community, you know we wouldn't have that paper on flux time.

00:37:49.052 --> 00:38:06.460
<v Ann Jeffers>You know we value people right and we value their contributions, and I think that is one of the benefits of having people with different life experiences and different backgrounds in the workforce is that they bring new approaches and new ideas that you're not going to see if everybody was sort of a cookie cutter design right.

00:38:06.460 --> 00:38:33.831
<v Ann Jeffers>So, you know, I think getting folks to understand that life happens and that there are ways to deal with it, and then there are ways to adjust the metrics for evaluation, you know all that stuff that we've talked about up to this point, I think that's going to advance the field and there are some fields that you can look at that are doing exactly that and there are some countries that are really good at accounting for life events and things like that.

00:38:33.831 --> 00:38:42.467
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, I think some conversations I've had with folks in the Nordic communities right and their family leave policies are just incredible.

00:38:42.467 --> 00:38:46.722
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, in America you're lucky to get six weeks family medical leave.

00:38:47.204 --> 00:38:51.898
<v Wojciech>I guess after six weeks the child can go to work and start living their own life.

00:38:51.898 --> 00:38:55.471
<v Wojciech>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's crazy.

00:38:56.300 --> 00:39:10.260
<v Ann Jeffers>So yeah, I think that there are models out there, and so maybe this conversation will just spark people to start thinking about how can we change things in the field of fire science so that it is more accommodating, and we'll see where it goes.

00:39:10.822 --> 00:39:20.329
<v Wojciech>If you help people, if you let them flourish, I think the outcome is much better than if you just burn through, you know people, person after person after person.

00:39:20.329 --> 00:39:22.561
<v Wojciech>I think in the end you get much more.

00:39:22.561 --> 00:39:31.945
<v Wojciech>You as the owner of a company or a director, and as a community, we have less burned out people, which means collectively we can do more.

00:39:31.945 --> 00:39:59.864
<v Wojciech>So, from the societal point of view, that strategy of not burning out people that quickly which we know it happens, like the depression levels at PhDs, the struggles that young people now have in academia, the push for publishing unimaginable amount of papers that no one is able to read, even you know fight for impact factors, rejection rates of like 85% at the most journals I mean this.

00:39:59.864 --> 00:40:00.927
<v Wojciech>This leaves a strain.

00:40:01.387 --> 00:40:24.851
<v Wojciech>Anyway, I wanted to get one important thing out of you your recovery process, because you seem to have recovered from your condition, which means you have improved your mental health, and I assume that's my bold assumption, but I hope it's true that the stuff that you've done to improve your condition can be also applied by someone who's not having mental illness but would just simply like to improve their mental health.

00:40:24.851 --> 00:40:28.413
<v Wojciech>So how did you approach your recovery period and how do you today maintain your mental health.

00:40:28.413 --> 00:40:32.606
<v Wojciech>So how did you approach your recovery period and how do you today maintain your mental health at a good level?

00:40:33.007 --> 00:40:33.268
<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah.

00:40:33.268 --> 00:40:45.125
<v Ann Jeffers>So I think one aspect is just acknowledging the fact that I do have mental illness right and standard course of treatment for that is that I go to therapy weekly and I take medications for my illness.

00:40:45.125 --> 00:40:51.275
<v Ann Jeffers>That helps keep the moods fairly level and the symptoms of psychosis at bay.

00:40:51.275 --> 00:40:55.288
<v Ann Jeffers>So that's sort of like the core to my diet of wellness, I guess.

00:40:55.288 --> 00:41:03.048
<v Ann Jeffers>And then you know, I think, beyond that, one of the things that I do is I prioritize sleep.

00:41:03.048 --> 00:41:12.447
<v Ann Jeffers>I do track how many hours of sleep I get a night, and if I do have a night where I didn't get enough sleep, oftentimes I'll take a nap during the day.

00:41:12.447 --> 00:41:22.880
<v Ann Jeffers>And I think part of that is the flexibility of the job that I'm in, where I can come in, I can work in the morning, go home, take a nap and then when I get up from my nap then I can work well into the evening.

00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:25.329
<v Ann Jeffers>So it's sort of like a midday siesta.

00:41:25.780 --> 00:41:30.873
<v Wojciech>I think some cultures I've also read a lot about sleep in previous years.

00:41:30.873 --> 00:41:34.369
<v Wojciech>I'm like it would be bullshit if I told you that I prioritize sleep.

00:41:34.369 --> 00:41:35.163
<v Wojciech>I know I should.

00:41:35.163 --> 00:41:36.186
<v Wojciech>That's at least true.

00:41:36.186 --> 00:41:43.362
<v Wojciech>And we're living in this odd culture where I know people who would be wearing like a medal of honor.

00:41:43.362 --> 00:41:46.862
<v Wojciech>You know I sleep four hours a day and that's enough, and that's it.

00:41:46.862 --> 00:41:49.407
<v Wojciech>And I work like 20 hours and I know that's enough and that's it.

00:41:49.407 --> 00:41:50.114
<v Wojciech>And I work like 20 hours.

00:41:50.114 --> 00:41:50.639
<v Wojciech>And I know it's damaging.

00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:54.509
<v Wojciech>Can you tell me more like how damaging is not prioritizing sleep?

00:41:54.509 --> 00:41:56.621
<v Wojciech>How bad it is actually for health?

00:41:57.202 --> 00:42:22.387
<v Ann Jeffers>There is, you know, a body of research out there that says you need so many hours of sleep at night to just be a living being, you know, and I think for me, though, it's especially important because of the bipolar disorder, because lack of sleep is a huge trigger for mania, and so if I'm not sleeping well, then it can spark mania and you may think, oh, that's a great thing, and then you can go write one of those papers in a week.

00:42:22.427 --> 00:42:24.592
<v Wojciech>Yeah, another model, yay, and pay the room.

00:42:25.501 --> 00:42:30.231
<v Ann Jeffers>But then the depression comes and you know it's like it spirals.

00:42:30.231 --> 00:42:33.925
<v Ann Jeffers>It's one of those non-productive manias you know like.

00:42:33.925 --> 00:42:41.576
<v Ann Jeffers>So you know, for me sleep is sort of preventative to having a manic episode and keeping my moods level.

00:42:41.576 --> 00:42:49.110
<v Ann Jeffers>And I will say that you know, in this job we do travel a lot, we have conferences we have meetings, you know, whatever.

00:42:49.742 --> 00:43:08.447
<v Ann Jeffers>And I'm a little bit leery of travel across time zones, and I will say that in October, when IFSS was going on, I had to very carefully plan out my trip so that I built in like a day of rest during the travel and that I gave myself several days to recover after I got home.

00:43:08.447 --> 00:43:15.610
<v Ann Jeffers>And by doing that I was able to travel to Japan and back, and it did not set my moods off, you know.

00:43:15.610 --> 00:43:27.889
<v Ann Jeffers>So, so, like, I think, being mindful of of how hard it can be on your body to travel across time zones, especially something as huge as from the US to Asia you know.

00:43:28.349 --> 00:43:38.342
<v Ann Jeffers>And then I'd say, as far as wellness goes, I prioritize my family and my life at home and you know, when I'm at home with my kids, I'm with my kids.

00:43:38.342 --> 00:43:43.413
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, and I try not to let my work seep into my home life too much.

00:43:43.413 --> 00:43:50.347
<v Ann Jeffers>That said, if I do need to work an evening or something like that, I can make that happen, as long as I make up the time with my family at a later time.

00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:54.847
<v Wojciech>How about controlling the work intake Because you are a successful academic?

00:43:54.847 --> 00:43:58.570
<v Wojciech>Successful academics get more offers, proposals.

00:43:58.570 --> 00:44:06.139
<v Wojciech>We're probably invited to a conference every week and there's like a ton of opportunity for new collaborations, for new research projects.

00:44:06.139 --> 00:44:08.027
<v Wojciech>So many grant applications you can write.

00:44:08.027 --> 00:44:21.570
<v Wojciech>So many papers you could write you know that's every academic has it Like I could write a paper about that, it will be glorious, and next day you know what I could write about this one actually, and then you end up with like 20 unwritten papers which don't lead anywhere.

00:44:21.570 --> 00:44:32.126
<v Wojciech>Have you figured a way to manage that so that work intake is actually manageable for you and does not inadvertently affect your mental health?

00:44:32.539 --> 00:44:36.985
<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah, my bandwidth is not what it used to be when I was an assistant professor.

00:44:36.985 --> 00:44:39.744
<v Ann Jeffers>I would say yes to everything you were even an editor.

00:44:40.146 --> 00:44:42.387
<v Wojciech>Right, you were even an editor of Fire Safety Journal.

00:44:43.621 --> 00:44:56.775
<v Ann Jeffers>In 2016 to 2018, while I was doing foster care and recovering from this bipolar episode, I was co-editor of Fire Safety Journal with Luke Bisbee and Bart Mercy.

00:44:57.056 --> 00:44:57.936
<v Wojciech>That's a lot of work.

00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:00.349
<v Ann Jeffers>So I said you know what, I can't do this anymore.

00:45:00.349 --> 00:45:03.088
<v Ann Jeffers>And I sat down from that position because it was too much.

00:45:03.088 --> 00:45:09.762
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, I hadn't fully recovered and it was just a lot of stress, and so you know, ok, fine, you know I had to cut that out.

00:45:09.762 --> 00:45:12.307
<v Ann Jeffers>I don't review as many papers as I used to.

00:45:12.307 --> 00:45:25.188
<v Ann Jeffers>I used to have every day I'd review a paper you know like, and I just I can't do that anymore because I, you know the time that I spend at work, I've got to spend it doing the high dollar things like writing proposals and advising my students and all that.

00:45:25.188 --> 00:45:31.445
<v Ann Jeffers>So so I did have to cut some things out and I do hope to get back to them and I do try occasionally.

00:45:31.445 --> 00:45:35.007
<v Ann Jeffers>But you know, if it gets to be too much, then I just scale it back.

00:45:35.007 --> 00:45:40.126
<v Ann Jeffers>Right now I just have a small group, I just have two PhD students, you know, and it's working for me.

00:45:41.483 --> 00:45:46.849
<v Wojciech>So they think cutting stuff down and reducing the workload has affected your success.

00:45:46.849 --> 00:45:54.349
<v Wojciech>However you measure success Like I have a feeling when I cut stuff down I'm actually more successful than when I take too much on myself.

00:45:54.349 --> 00:45:57.954
<v Wojciech>You know, start to value focus more than quantity.

00:45:57.954 --> 00:45:59.476
<v Wojciech>Is it the same for you?

00:46:03.639 --> 00:46:07.019
<v Ann Jeffers>I think that the work that's going to come out of these two students that I'm advising right now is going to be some of the best work that's come out of my group.

00:46:07.721 --> 00:46:08.766
<v Ann Jeffers>That's my hope.

00:46:08.766 --> 00:46:15.322
<v Ann Jeffers>I really think that's the direction that we're going in.

00:46:15.322 --> 00:46:15.623
<v Ann Jeffers>So that's fine.

00:46:15.623 --> 00:46:17.489
<v Ann Jeffers>If I don't publish 20 papers in a year, that's to me is not successful.

00:46:17.489 --> 00:46:21.282
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, I published this book and look at the impact that it's having, you know.

00:46:21.282 --> 00:46:24.726
<v Ann Jeffers>So it's not an academic work, but I don't really care.

00:46:24.726 --> 00:46:26.887
<v Ann Jeffers>It's something that's important to me, you know.

00:46:26.887 --> 00:46:29.951
<v Ann Jeffers>And so, like I've, I've I've sort of changed my focus right.

00:46:29.951 --> 00:46:41.041
<v Ann Jeffers>Like I, I do the things that are fulfilling and meaningful to me and I do the work that I want to do, and then the things that I'm not interested in or that I don't have the bandwidth for, I I let them go.

00:46:41.041 --> 00:46:45.007
<v Ann Jeffers>If I never get promoted to full professor, then you know it's fine.

00:46:45.007 --> 00:46:45.728
<v Ann Jeffers>I still have a job.

00:46:45.728 --> 00:46:46.510
<v Ann Jeffers>At the end of the day.

00:46:46.951 --> 00:46:47.692
<v Wojciech>And you're fine with that.

00:46:47.731 --> 00:46:48.753
<v Wojciech>I mean, that's a big.

00:46:48.753 --> 00:46:59.126
<v Wojciech>I ask because people I find a lot of people who are struggling are also the same people who don't really define the success or the goals very well.

00:46:59.126 --> 00:47:28.331
<v Wojciech>Like I, put that as a root of many problems of many people and myself included, and when I gained crystal clear view of what is my goal like, how do I define, how do I measure my success, instead of applying someone else's measures of success, because everyone can measure it differently and for someone, a success might be if they can spend all the time with their family and accomplish everything with it at a job's a perfectly successful life.

00:47:28.331 --> 00:47:38.135
<v Wojciech>I I know people who measure success with the amounts of hours they can serve in the ocean in a week without, you know, affecting their work, and that's fantastic way to measure success.

00:47:38.135 --> 00:47:41.204
<v Wojciech>Some would measure it in money, some would measure it in citations.

00:47:41.204 --> 00:47:51.873
<v Wojciech>But if, if you don't have the focus, you start to doing all of those things all together and that you cannot get success, and even if you do, it's probably not fulfilling at that point.

00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:53.985
<v Ann Jeffers>Yeah, I'm absolutely.

00:47:53.985 --> 00:47:56.952
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, this experience changed my outlook on things.

00:47:56.952 --> 00:48:13.487
<v Ann Jeffers>Before I was chasing papers and citations and you know those standard metrics, and now I think you know I'm alive and I'm living my life and I've got a family that I love and I got work that I absolutely love.

00:48:13.768 --> 00:48:22.190
<v Ann Jeffers>I love the research that we're doing and I love collaborating with people and that'll amount to something and that's fine by me.

00:48:22.190 --> 00:48:29.778
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, like, maybe I'm not the wealthiest faculty member in my department, right, you know I'm not bringing in these huge, like multimillion dollar grants.

00:48:29.778 --> 00:48:30.393
<v Ann Jeffers>Maybe someday I will, I don't, right, you know I'm not bringing in these huge, like multi-million dollar grants.

00:48:30.393 --> 00:48:34.505
<v Ann Jeffers>Maybe someday I will, I don't know, but right now I'm not, and you know that's fine.

00:48:34.505 --> 00:48:35.442
<v Ann Jeffers>That's fine, you know.

00:48:35.442 --> 00:48:46.262
<v Ann Jeffers>But I serve a purpose on this campus and I've become a huge mental health advocate and a disability justice advocate on my campus and I'm making a difference that way, you know.

00:48:46.262 --> 00:48:57.130
<v Ann Jeffers>So I think there are many pathways to success and I think it's about finding what it is that you enjoy and what it is that is meaningful to you, and then, you know, running into that full force, you know.

00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:01.003
<v Wojciech>Any advice we can give to people who are like you and me.

00:49:01.003 --> 00:49:01.943
<v Wojciech>We're professors.

00:49:01.943 --> 00:49:07.269
<v Wojciech>We're kind of privileged in the way that we can set up our professional lives as we like.

00:49:07.269 --> 00:49:14.137
<v Wojciech>Like most of the case, we can decide on what we do, what research directions we want to pursue and stuff like that.

00:49:14.137 --> 00:49:24.688
<v Wojciech>But most of the people would have bosses, would have being consultants, and that this is a part that you do For people who are more constrained than us.

00:49:24.688 --> 00:49:32.719
<v Wojciech>I mean it may be difficult to go to your boss and tell him you know what, I don't want this project because I have two already.

00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:35.206
<v Wojciech>And the boss can be like oh Tracy, what do you mean?

00:49:35.206 --> 00:49:40.608
<v Wojciech>You don't do this project, anything that comes to your mind now being a mental health advocate.

00:49:41.461 --> 00:49:43.409
<v Ann Jeffers>So I'll tell you two things.

00:49:43.409 --> 00:49:57.963
<v Ann Jeffers>One is, if I were in that situation, I would advocate for the work that I want to do, and if I can't get off of a project that really makes me unhappy, I would try to compartmentalize my thinking of it.

00:49:57.963 --> 00:49:59.326
<v Ann Jeffers>Right, and that it's.

00:49:59.326 --> 00:50:00.307
<v Ann Jeffers>It's a job.

00:50:00.307 --> 00:50:05.722
<v Ann Jeffers>I've bussed tables, I have worked at Panera Bread serving coffee to people.

00:50:05.722 --> 00:50:09.327
<v Ann Jeffers>You know like I've I've worked all kinds of jobs in my life, right, and?

00:50:09.327 --> 00:50:12.012
<v Ann Jeffers>And some jobs are just a job, um, and and.

00:50:12.012 --> 00:50:27.588
<v Ann Jeffers>So as long as you're you're doing something that maybe it's not the most fulfilling work, but you know it's good enough, then you can just sort of go in, do the job and then, uh, close it, and that's why people have hobbies, you know, um, that's why people do things on the weekends.

00:50:27.588 --> 00:50:38.391
<v Ann Jeffers>So I think, trying to find some sort of balance of things that you'd like to do versus things that you have to do, and hopefully the pay is good enough that you can live a comfortable life.

00:50:39.300 --> 00:51:01.389
<v Wojciech>One final very important question Like, at some point you sought help and viewing now, I guess it was a good decision to seek help, but how important it is from your perspective that people reach a point where they seek help and how to even tell that this is the point I need to seek help, because it's probably quite challenging to figure out.

00:51:03.222 --> 00:51:03.422
<v Ann Jeffers>Okay.

00:51:03.422 --> 00:51:05.048
<v Ann Jeffers>So there's a couple of things to this one.

00:51:05.048 --> 00:51:12.621
<v Ann Jeffers>I'll try to be brief to this one.

00:51:12.621 --> 00:51:13.043
<v Ann Jeffers>I'll try to be brief.

00:51:13.043 --> 00:51:16.077
<v Ann Jeffers>I think if you find yourself at a point where it just is not sustainable anymore, then I think that that's a good time to seek help.

00:51:16.077 --> 00:51:24.083
<v Ann Jeffers>So that's what I would say as far as when to get help For me, you know I was having hallucinations and stuff and I said you know, I just I can't live like this.

00:51:24.523 --> 00:51:30.594
<v Ann Jeffers>You know I was raging in anger one day and then I'd be crying the next, and that's not sustainable.

00:51:30.594 --> 00:51:33.849
<v Ann Jeffers>So I needed to talk to somebody and I needed to get help.

00:51:33.849 --> 00:51:49.931
<v Ann Jeffers>I will say, just as sort of a side note, that getting help is not the easiest thing to do, not just because there's stigma, but also because there are poor mental health providers out there, and sometimes it's a matchmaking game to find the right provider for you.

00:51:49.931 --> 00:51:59.802
<v Ann Jeffers>Sometimes cultures are not as amenable to treatment as others, so there are cultural aspects to it.

00:52:00.445 --> 00:52:11.454
<v Ann Jeffers>You know, different countries have different health care systems, like so many different things, and so I think that there's an added barrier because you have to be persistent and not give up.

00:52:11.454 --> 00:52:24.088
<v Ann Jeffers>But when you're dealing with like I was mental illness, then it's really hard to be persistent, right, you know, and I got really lucky that I found the right therapist on my first call and you know she's been fantastic.

00:52:24.088 --> 00:52:31.541
<v Ann Jeffers>Psychiatrists come and go, you know I have a good one right now that I like, but you know I've a good one right now that I like, but you know I've had some bad ones too, you know.

00:52:31.541 --> 00:52:46.543
<v Ann Jeffers>So like just being aware that the quality of care is not perfect and just understanding that aspect and that's part of one of the themes that I wanted to bring up in my book was that treatment is not straightforward and so people hopefully can get that information.

00:52:46.945 --> 00:52:49.692
<v Wojciech>Yeah, you've also mentioned that it's more like trial and error.

00:52:49.692 --> 00:53:11.420
<v Wojciech>It's not like, oh yeah, for your condition, for this amount of episodes you need like five grams of that and two grams for that, and it's not that easy, right, it's not that straightforward, but it's something that you can work through and then if you find yourself in a position that you may need help, you can find one and it can be a very big difference.

00:53:11.420 --> 00:53:19.094
<v Wojciech>And mental illness and general mental health problems it's not that just your head hurts or you feel bad.

00:53:19.094 --> 00:53:26.331
<v Wojciech>I mean, these are disorders that have like fatality, count on them and the numbers are disturbingly high.

00:53:26.331 --> 00:53:28.074
<v Wojciech>Numbers are disturbingly high.

00:53:28.074 --> 00:53:34.485
<v Wojciech>So, yeah, it's important folks to take care of yourself and take care of your health, also the mental health.

00:53:34.485 --> 00:53:37.449
<v Wojciech>I guess we should end in here.

00:53:37.449 --> 00:53:39.467
<v Wojciech>Can you hear the music to book?

00:53:39.467 --> 00:53:40.965
<v Wojciech>I can recommend it.

00:53:40.965 --> 00:53:42.686
<v Wojciech>There will be links in the show notes.

00:53:42.686 --> 00:53:49.681
<v Wojciech>I'll let you plug it in with one personal statement, like what pushed you to writing the book and who did you write it for?

00:53:49.983 --> 00:53:51.144
<v Ann Jeffers>I wrote it for myself.

00:53:51.967 --> 00:53:52.387
<v Wojciech>I thought so.

00:53:53.949 --> 00:54:09.623
<v Ann Jeffers>It's the book that I needed to read when I was most unwell, because I couldn't find any detailed recount of the experiences that I was having and I just I felt so isolated and alone, and so I wrote it for me and people like me, but I think that anybody could read it and it would appeal to anyone.

00:54:09.623 --> 00:54:11.349
<v Ann Jeffers>And I think wrote it for me and people like me, but I think that anybody could read it and it would appeal to anyone.

00:54:11.349 --> 00:54:20.632
<v Ann Jeffers>And I think it gives a very good insight into dealing with mental illness, seeking help and, you know, getting getting better, and and it's got a happy ending.

00:54:20.920 --> 00:54:23.346
<v Wojciech>So I have expected it will have a happy ending.

00:54:23.387 --> 00:54:26.563
<v Ann Jeffers>That's good, that's good, I mean I'm here, so that's, that's that's great.

00:54:26.583 --> 00:54:26.862
<v Wojciech>Now there's.

00:54:26.862 --> 00:54:27.264
<v Wojciech>I can recommend it.

00:54:27.264 --> 00:54:28.507
<v Wojciech>So that's the happy part.

00:54:28.507 --> 00:54:30.793
<v Wojciech>I can recommend it for the emotional part.

00:54:30.793 --> 00:54:39.867
<v Wojciech>It's a record that lets you feel the emotions and it's difficult to explain how it works, but the book has this magic in it.

00:54:39.867 --> 00:54:45.867
<v Wojciech>Many books have this magic in them that they convey this aspect and that makes them great.

00:54:45.867 --> 00:54:52.568
<v Wojciech>And thank you very much for coming to the Fire Science Show, for sharing your story once again.

00:54:52.568 --> 00:55:02.646
<v Wojciech>Thank you for being an advocate for mental health in academia and now you're a champion of mental health in fire science and fire engineering, for which I am thankful.

00:55:02.646 --> 00:55:04.244
<v Wojciech>I hope you keep doing that.

00:55:04.244 --> 00:55:07.349
<v Wojciech>And yeah, you said you have two very promising students.

00:55:07.349 --> 00:55:17.949
<v Wojciech>So I expect more Fire Science Show episodes, this time more fire science-ish, but I'm not sure if more important than this one, but perhaps interesting as well.

00:55:18.510 --> 00:55:19.050
<v Ann Jeffers>No, thank you.

00:55:20.072 --> 00:55:20.474
<v Wojciech>And that's it.

00:55:20.474 --> 00:55:22.246
<v Wojciech>I struggled to ask you if you enjoyed this one.

00:55:22.246 --> 00:55:36.550
<v Wojciech>Well, after all, I hope you kind of did, and I hope we brought some interesting information to you about how to take care of your mental health and well-being, how to survive in this very brutal and stressful world.

00:55:36.550 --> 00:55:38.545
<v Wojciech>Mental health is a serious thing.

00:55:38.545 --> 00:55:42.411
<v Wojciech>It's not just self-harm and suicide that's dangerous.

00:55:42.411 --> 00:55:48.532
<v Wojciech>It's just simple long-lasting health effects of prolonged stress can have on your body.

00:55:48.532 --> 00:55:51.402
<v Wojciech>This is a serious issue on its own.

00:55:51.402 --> 00:55:54.748
<v Wojciech>There will always be more work to do.

00:55:54.748 --> 00:55:57.673
<v Wojciech>There will always be new projects to chase.

00:55:57.673 --> 00:56:07.784
<v Wojciech>There will be always something waiting out there for you impatiently, and we just have to survive in this crazy world.

00:56:08.427 --> 00:56:20.567
<v Wojciech>I would not normally do such an episode, but I was really encouraged about Anne sharing her story during an IFSS conference, where she presented this story at the Diversity, equity, inclusion workshop.

00:56:20.567 --> 00:56:23.052
<v Wojciech>Her book is also quite nice.

00:56:23.052 --> 00:56:36.304
<v Wojciech>I've enjoyed that book and it's kind of revealing what a person goes through, highly supportive towards Anne, and I'm really happy that she's now an advocate for mental health and well-being and she helps others.

00:56:36.304 --> 00:56:37.409
<v Wojciech>What a way to go.

00:56:37.409 --> 00:56:43.873
<v Wojciech>I guess I'm going to leave you in here without summarizing this up anymore, I guess.

00:56:43.873 --> 00:57:00.945
<v Wojciech>And next steps, if you're curious about the topic how you can self-care about yourself there are some nice videos, interviews with an over the internet and a bunch of resources that can definitely help you, so I would redirect you towards that.

00:57:01.887 --> 00:57:22.150
<v Wojciech>And for today, this is it, uh, for the first show, and look forward to next wednesday, where you will find fire science, this time in the Fire Science Show, and look forward to Thursday, when you will find something new and very interesting, very fresh, dropped out of the fire science media.

00:57:22.150 --> 00:57:27.467
<v Wojciech>So, yeah, let's stay in touch and the next week looks really interesting.

00:57:27.467 --> 00:57:28.351
<v Wojciech>See you there.

00:57:28.351 --> 00:57:42.516
<v Wojciech>Bye, this was the Fire Science Show.

00:57:42.516 --> 00:57:46.340
<v Wojciech>No-transcript.