Serial Entrepreneur Michael Loeb: E-commerce, Sales, Marketing, B2B, and More

 You're listening to The Radcast. If it's radical, we cover it. Here's your host, Ryan
 Alford. Hey guys, what's up? It's Ryan Alford. Welcome to the latest edition of The Radcast.
 We are extremely excited to be joined by our guest today. Michael Loeb, who is the CEO
 and founder of Loeb Enterprises. Michael has a very distinguished background in marketing
 and venture capitalism and sales and lots of stuff. Michael, really pleased and thankful
 to have you on the show today. Well, I thank you, Ryan. You forgot to mention
 Buddha. I'm pretty good at Buddha. You know, there's one thing in watching all of the
 interviews you've done. You're a humble, humble soul. Maybe your friends don't know you
 that way. I don't know, but all I'll say is, you know, to do some of the things you've
 done watching you on stage and watching, you know, some of the other presentations, key
 notes and all that, you're very humble and I appreciate that. But you do have a very
 distinguished background and we really appreciate you coming on the show. I am happy to be
 here. Great. How are things going there in New York? You guys keeping hunkered down?
 Oh, I think like the rest of the world, the answer is yes. And today happens to be snowing,
 which, oh, nice thing more and more of a rarity. It is. The, it sounds like you guys might be
 coming out of some of the lockdowns. Are they getting any better there? You know, all you can
 see is I lived in New York for a while, but it's been six years and can only imagine, you know,
 the struggle that's been, but things getting a little better or you guys seeing the light at
 the end of the total. I can tell Ryan that you lived in New York for six years because of your
 New York accent. You know, the answer I think is no. The struggle is that if you're a restaurant,
 you still have to have outdoor dining. You can't have indoor dining. They have pinched every
 form of a tent and TP for people to dine outside with all manner of heaters, but when the
 temperature drops below 30, it's really hard to conduct any sort of business outside.
 And so, you know, a lot of the trappings of New York, the restaurants, the bars,
 the theaters, museums, none of that is really back. And you combine that with everybody working
 from home and also the high taxes in New York that our governor is proposing to make even higher
 to pay for some of the bills and kind of our weak leadership, particularly in New York City,
 and it's a formula for some pretty scary stuff. New York went through a, you know, 15-year period,
 maybe even arguing with the longer, high murder rides, high crime rates, a lot of dirt and
 felt everybody kind of exiting the city. And those were in the 80s and to a lesser extent,
 the 90s and good management kind of put that out a good path, great path. And now we're,
 you know, those of us who have been long time residents are concerned that that's going to get
 reversed. But we shall say New York is not alone. Yeah, well, best of luck with that. I only pretend
 to have solutions for marketing and politics and government are either above or below my pay grade,
 not sure which one, but we'll leave that for another day. The, Michael, I would like to give,
 you know, obviously you've done interviews, you've done keynotes. We do have a lot of ad and
 marketing people that I'm sure have heard your name around. But I'd love to give everyone,
 let's start with, you know, that synopsis of your career and your background. And then let's get
 into some of your latest ventures. Alrighty. So there is no such thing as a synopsis of my background
 because it's just too rich and textured and lengthy that no redaction could actually work.
 How's that for human? I take it all back. I'll do the best I can. So I am, I am a serial
 launchman or you can attach the last name launchman or to the first name serial and it's about the
 only thing that can follow the word serial that is in any way positive. But I didn't start out that
 way. I joined Time Warner, Time Inc at Time Warner. Time Inc was the most powerful publishing company on
 the planet at one time. And I actually followed my dad into that business. My dad was a
 renowned journalist. I think that word is fair. And I went on the business side and had the
 pleasure of managing sports illustrated. You're talking to the man who has the patent on the
 sneaker phone and the football phone and had something to do with the idea of sports blooper
 videos, which were premiums for sports illustrated and kind of as a prize for my good efforts at
 SI. I was awarded the privilege of launching Entertainment Weekly and was paired up with an
 editor and kind of like a product manager, say at Coca-Cola, where the product manager has
 everything to do with the marketing of the product and nothing to do with what is inside the
 can. At Time Inc, we had the division of what they call church and state, church being editorial
 and state had nothing to say about that. And so the thought of entertainably is something quite
 precious and a feat. It was going to be about books and poetry and
 very aridite stuff. And for me, Entertainment Weekly was going to be swap out, sports illustrated,
 put in the concept of entertainment. It was going to be the big three forms of entertainment,
 which is to say, you know, TV, music and movies. And it was going to be a fans magazine
 distinguished from people in as much as what sports illustrated. When you have a subject, you go,
 you know, it becomes a 10,000 word article and a whole lot of pictures.
 But that was not to be. I was selling one magazine and he was creating a different one,
 which is the formula for failure. And indeed, both of us in fairly short order were shown the
 door. So I was at 36 years old and fired from the only company that I ever wanted to work for.
 And I decided that instead of jumping off a bridge, which is fairly permanent when it comes to
 a decision. I was going to try my hand at starting the company outside of Time Inc that I was
 trying to start inside of Time Inc. And that was the notion and it sounds very quaint of
 billing magazine subscriptions to credit cards at the time, which is we're talking the 90s.
 Some of your audience actually were sworn at that time. But in the 90s, it was a known fact that
 credit cards and magazines and credit cards and newspapers didn't live well in the sandbox together.
 And we introduced this notion of getting that subscription on a credit card and maintaining it
 on a credit card. The trade term is negative option, which means that it presumes the renewal.
 And doesn't ask you it kind of affirms that, you know, yes, you're going to be billed again because
 your subscription has last. And here's the price. And if you want to cancel, this is how you do so.
 Versus an affirmative renewal, which they would pepper you with renewal notices followed by
 bills, and you had to affirmatively confirm the subscription, check the box, send it back,
 and that would get followed up by a bunch of bills. As you can imagine, when you renew people,
 when you take a inertia and remove it from one shoulder, which is the inertia as your enemy,
 and put it on the other shoulder, which is inertia as your friend, you find a dramatic
 difference in the retention dynamics of a subscription. And in fact, time on file grew by about
 two and a half X. That was the big insight on synapse. We built a platform that did everything I
 just described, which had a lot of complexity in as much as you're working with thousands of
 fulfillment houses for thousands of magazines. But what we also did Ryan was sell the subscription
 in addition to maintain it. That company grew and grew. It sounds very quaint, but we did it with
 no outside capital. I'll explain the Wii in a second. We did it with no outside capital. And
 nine years after I started the company, my former employer said, I understand you might be going
 public. Instead of going public, can we buy you? And I said, what's your number? And they said 800
 million. And I said, that could work and made the sale of synapse in 2001, but had a very long
 earn out, a five year earn out. So that brings us to 2006, which is when we created the model that
 we have today. Now, what inspired that model going backwards was not just synapse, but I had a
 partner in the business, a fellow by the name of Jay Walker. Jay was quite the gifted thinker.
 The word brilliant is often attached to his name. And I think it's well deserved. And Jay's great
 asset is to come up with fantastic ideas. And synapse was much more my baby. I was more familiar
 with the magazine industry. So Jay became bent on coming up with another idea of his own. And
 that turned out to be priceline.com. So we had incubated price line inside of synapse for the first
 two years or so of price lines life. It was Ryan a very interesting experiment. Can you have one
 workforce, one roof over your head, one system? And can you dual task? Can you ask Jimmy to work,
 you know, the mornings for synapse, the afternoon surprise line and the evenings for synapse again
 or vice versa? And would they spit the bit? Or would they embrace it? And it turns out that
 really, really smart people, no matter how challenging the job after a year or so on the job,
 would like to have new challenges. So we found that efficiency went up, jobs, satisfaction went
 up. So when after price line went public in 99 and after the sale of synapse and after my
 urn app was paid off, I thought let's go back and take that model and put it on steroids. And
 that is what we have at low enterprises or low NYC. The difference being I called it low
 enterprises. My daughter who works here said dad that is like so old fashioned low NYC.
 I used to call what we do a company factory, likewise old fashioned. So we are now a venture
 collective. But what we do do, Ryan is we have large teams of people and they come up with ideas
 and most of those ideas or many of those ideas are de novo startups. Some are ideas,
 external ideas that we decide to develop internally. And sometimes it's an outside company super
 early in the curve. We like it a lot. We like the business, we like the business model,
 we like the management team, we like the addressable market. And most of all, we can see ourselves
 helping, deeply helping with the operation of that company. And if it checks all those boxes,
 we sometimes will say come on into the fold, you don't have to worry about raising anymore capital,
 we will be the source of capital. So if you want to think about it, what we do is combine
 several elements that are discrete in most of the world. And those elements are the ideas,
 the entrepreneurs, the executional know-how and the capital. And we put that all together.
 And we believe that by putting that all together, you are much more efficient and seamless.
 And that the opportunity for success is greater. What we're really leaning in on is that if you
 talk to people in DC dumb, they will tell you that 2 in 10 is about the success ratio. Which means
 8 out of 10 are failures. Of those 8, maybe half are total failures and half return some of the
 capital or all the capital, but don't have enough of a return on top of that return,
 tap anything in terms of an ROI. We don't see why the failure rate has to be nearly that high.
 I mean, why is it only 2 in 10? Why it only 2 in 10 work is the question we asked ourselves.
 And is it because you're betting on the wrong horse, betting on the wrong idea,
 or is it that you really don't have kind of a seamless execution from idea to putting it into
 the marketplace and growing it? We think it's a little of all 3, but it's probably has a lot to do
 with having all those pieces in discrete corners and having to assemble them.
 The other thing we say is that when I do my little straw poll of CEOs and I ask them how much
 time do you spend? CEOs or entrepreneurs of startups? How much time do you spend raising capital or
 keeping the capital you just raised happy? And I get numbers like 75%.
 These people are not professional fundraisers. What they did is they had an inspired idea.
 So why is highest invest use? You going out and trying to get capital.
 The neat thing is with us, you don't have to. The capital is right here. Again, if it's an outside
 idea or an outside company, the capital is right here. The know how is right here. You need a
 SEO expert. We got it. You need a you need a you know machine learning expert. We got it.
 You need tech build. We have it. You need direct mail. We do that too. So it's meant to be that Swiss
 Army knife. When I describe the company, I say there's two discrete pieces and I make the comparison
 to a Tootsie pop and the chocolate center is all our companies and the hard candy shell is all
 of what we call shared services. That ranges from some of the things I mentioned but also includes
 back office accounting. Every entrepreneur I know is missing the back office accounting gene.
 They see an envelope and they shove it in the drawer. They don't open it. They don't code it. They
 don't plan to pay it. Same thing with receivables. They don't collect. If you talk to about cash
 out dates, they're always wrong about that. They hate putting together balance sheets and P&Ls.
 So we take that burden off of them because they're not particularly good at it. Again, it's
 highest and best use and what is the highest and best use. You had an idea and you're passionate
 about it and that can't be replaced by anybody else in the marketplace. So let's try to free up
 all that effort that is needlessly spent and refocus it on building your business. So
 back office accounting is one service we provide. We pre-raised all the capital because the capital
 is my capital. So it's an investable capital. We have tech lots and lots of tech assets
 in the tri-state area but also around the world. We have deep analytic assets and AI and machine
 learning and AR capabilities. And then we have the infrastructure, HR recruiting, legal, but perhaps
 our strong suit is marketing which ranges from old school, which was the school I was schooled
 into new school. So old school would be TV. We actually make our own TV ads here.
 TV, radio, direct mail, tens of millions of pieces of direct mail. We were deep in the healthcare.
 We largely traded out of that but when we were in healthcare we had a field force of 3,000 people
 that would make sales calls into 400,000 doctors offices around the country and set up materials.
 We have our own phone center in Virginia, 100 seed state of the art center. That is for both
 inbound and outbound calls. This is all old school stuff. The new school stuff is everything
 digital from SEO, SCM, social, programmatic, influencer, podcasts, you name it. So that's the shop.
 The shared services are free to the companies that we are standing up.
 When we go for outside capital and we also have an M&A Department of Finance Department that
 works with all the DCs, we get the neat thing is Ryan. This is not a friends and family round.
 This is not an angel round. This is not even an A round. Our last big one was an 80 on a for a
 630 post, 630 million dollar post. That gives you the type of capital raises that we do get
 when we advance the ball down the field. So instead of having like a 3 million on a 5 million
 which gets a lot of delusion and not a lot of capital, we will blow through those rounds,
 develop these companies ourselves. Only when you can make the case that the new capital coming
 in is for scaling. We are still going to have losses for a while, but for scaling, that's the way
 to get a much higher pre-money valuation and much less delusion for the capital that comes in.
 That I guess is a little bit about our story. I guess one other thing I can talk to is
 what are our swim lanes and the fact of the matter is we don't think about the world that way.
 We think about disruption and we take a look at these giant industries that have yet to be disrupted
 and we address those. We attack those. We learn everything that we can about those
 because our philosophy is that everything plan up wide is going to be disrupted.
 You add mobility, change in work, nature of work and you can come to the conclusion that everything
 is going to be disrupted. What's an example of an industry that really hasn't been interrupted yet?
 There's many, many, many banking is a good one. Although there's some nibbling around the edges,
 but we're taking a deep look at insurance. Insurance is trillion dollars big and they still do
 business today and still think today like they did many years ago. I'll give you one example
 which is we have another company, Steady. It's your advocate in the gig economy.
 One of our de novo startups, it is killing it. Steady has 2.7 million members and what they try
 to do, Ryan, is optimize your day. Uber would just as soon have you sit in that car morning,
 noon and night and if it is morning, noon or night, you're probably doing pretty well,
 but if it's in the in between hours, you have no business. What Steady will do is say,
 okay, Ryan, I have you driving for Uber from 7 to 930 at 930. I've got you walking dogs at one
 near at home debo and at four o'clock, you're going to be working for left because they pay better,
 right? So it's optimizing how much income you get. They have 2.7 million members, 1.8 of them
 do some manner of driving and we some of the time and interestingly, car insurance
 doesn't begin to understand the marketplace and that is because there's 2 buckets. One bucket is,
 you know, you're driving personal miles and another bucket is, you're driving professional miles
 and never shall a twain ever meet and that is because in days of your, you would have a taxi cab.
 You said you knew you knew New York and the taxi cab would have a medallion,
 literally a medallion bolted onto the hood of the car that used to cost about 1.2 million.
 Now you can get one for 200,000 because all the taxi cab companies are doing out of business.
 But you'd bought a medallion that got bolted to the roof of this yellow car and you'd have six guys
 and they'd all show up at a garage on a rotating basis and take the car out because that
 car would be driven 24-7 by half dozen people. That's not how it happens anymore, right?
 Now you've got a phone and you got your own car and when Uber says, I got something,
 you click a button and you race to the location and you got somebody in the back of your car.
 Insurance companies don't understand that. I had never used to exist. There used to be a professional
 car or a personal car, not a prosumer car, right? And that's what we're talking about now.
 And if you are a, if you were one of those 1.8 million numbers of steady that do some driving,
 you're either driving your car when you drive professionally for Uber or Lyft or DoorDash,
 you name it Instacart. You're either driving illegally because you're doing a professional ride
 and you have no coverage, right? You get into an accident when you're working for Instacart,
 you are not covered, right? Or you're paying three times too much because the presumption is
 every single mile is a professional mile. So you're either paying too much for your exposed
 and we're trying to create a product that addresses that, right? That you can be a prosumer,
 you can be both. And that would be, you know, that would be charged by the mile and the
 neat thing is you got the data sources to say exactly which mile was professional and which wasn't.
 So that's just an example, right? This trillion dollar plus industry yet to be disrupted and
 really doesn't understand the new economy, hasn't been built from the new economy.
 The average steady member makes $5,5580 actually more dollars through steady than they do without
 steady, but they're still, you know, 40 or $50,000 a year, you know, incomes.
 And the average cost of auto insurance, right, for personal auto insurance is $2,700
 and they want you to pay that all once. This is not the type of audience that can do that, right?
 What they really want to do is they want that chopped up and if it could be chopped up by mile and
 if you could pay daily, that would be ideal. Anyway, that gives you an example of the things
 that we go after. Yeah, a lot to unpack there. And a lot of richness as you discussed,
 before I delve into like specific questions on the business and the business model, I mean,
 I just want to, what makes Michael tick? Like, you know, you've been involved with so many ventures,
 obviously, a lot of successful ones at that, a lot of names there that people know, time,
 price line, etc. Like, what's been your, what do you feel like has been your, obviously,
 in very intelligence, I would put at the top of that, but what makes you tick and what's been your
 secret sauce and or what do you feel like, what's been your additive to all of those things?
 Well, Ryan, I got to tell you, I think entrepreneurs are born, right? I don't think they're bred.
 I was always meant to be an entrepreneur and I'll tell you one point of discrimination or
 illustration of this point, which is an entrepreneur, okay, a non entrepreneur will be in traffic
 and they'll come across a stop sign and they'll stop, right? They'll stop. They'll look both ways
 and then they'll drive again. An entrepreneur will come to that stop sign and the first thing they say
 is why in God's green earth is that stop sign here, right? And then they'll see it's a four-way stop
 and they'll say they'll look left, they'll look right, they don't see anybody, they ain't stopping,
 right? Entrepreneurs believe that rules were written for somebody else. Entrepreneurs believe that
 if you turn over every single rock, what you're going to find underneath is an opportunity
 and they look at everything, right? They can look at a garden hose, they can look at a chair
 and they can say, I can do this better, I can do it better, faster, cheaper, and you can't turn it
 off and it gets annoying, right? I mean, imagine being in a cocktail party and you say, you know
 those stuff mushrooms? Gotta tell you, too much struggle, right? Too much. I mean, what a pain in the
 ass who are the worst party guests ever. So I think the entrepreneurs, they really are born,
 they really are the kids with the lemonade stand, but they got a story and the story is,
 I ran out of, it was such a hot day, I ran out of lemonade, there was no more lemons in the house,
 it would take too long to go to the store, so I took dad's grass clippings, okay? And I like,
 you know, put them in a blender and then I added sugar and then I doubled the price and it became
 green food, right? It's how it comes to our things, like every setback is an opportunity,
 every time you serve lemons, it becomes lemonade. They are not to be denied, if there is a wall,
 they will go through it, if they can't go through it, they'll go over it, if they can't do that,
 they will tunnel under it, if they can't do that left or right, if they can't do that,
 they're going to build your own wall, own wall, and tell everybody else that's the fake wall and
 mind is the real wall. So, first of all, entrepreneurs are born and when it comes to what I want to
 accomplish or what will be my legacy, number one, I like starting things, I like starting things,
 I like meeting people, frankly, half my age and they're all half my age these days and they are
 so smart and so gifted and they keep me so sharp because I'm a troglodyte, right? I mean,
 when I started learning how to read and write, we had clay tablets, right? And they hear about all
 this new technology and everything changing and to be one of those people on that cutting edge,
 certainly trying to be on a cutting edge is really, you know, spectacularly challenging and I think
 just, you know, if you will, keeps me young, keeps me engaged and keeps me young and it's fun
 and it's fun about thinking of things. I had a conversation last night with the head of
 product for one of our companies and I was sharing an idea that I presented to the CEO
 Panera Bread and he loved it, right? And I explained this idea and at the end he said, Michael,
 how do you think of these things? And I said, gee, I don't know what just kind of appears is how I
 think of these things. In terms of legacy, some in substance, what drives me, I sometimes quote
 Keats on this and Keats Keats has a tombstone and on his tombstone is written, our names are
 written in water, right? Written as in old fashioned way of saying written, right? Our names are
 written in water and there's an irony there, right? Because you're looking at solid granite and it's
 and those words, right, are carved in solid granite, which means go screw yourself, right?
 Your name is written, my name, I'm in granite and I want my name in granite. I want people to look at
 some of the companies that I built and say, boy, you know, that was smart, right? That was smart,
 that was disruptive, that was courageous, because to go against that grain, right?
 The institute of public opinion, the institute of all the inventions before your invention
 and to like reinvent something. The presumption is the status quo was the status quo for a reason
 and that's part of the problem of an entrepreneur. An entrepreneur will look at a football game and
 say, why are 11 people on the field? Wouldn't it be better that like 13, right? And, you know,
 why are all the linemen, you know, weighing 300 pounds? What about 500 pounds? Can we make 500 pounds?
 Entrepreneurs think differently and are fearless and they look at the status quo and they say,
 that's for every other idiot because that for me, when I flip that on its head, that's my
 opportunity because everybody else is following that bright, shiny object and if I go in a different
 direction, no one is going to be there and that is going to be my fertile ground.
 Love it. I want to turn a little bit. I know you didn't bring it up. You know, one of your ventures,
 but it's, it weighs on me. We work with a lot of B2B companies, you know, do B2B marketing.
 And one of the biggest challenges we do see is in the B2B e-compayment systems and things
 like that. I know credit key is one of your ventures. Can you talk a little bit about credit key
 and what you guys are doing with that in the B2B payment side of things? Sure can. And that's also
 an illustration of how entrepreneurs think. For, you know, pick a number of 15 years, we've had
 alternative payment solutions to credit cards. So you'd have these in MasterCard discover
 American Express and then you'd have PayPal or Clarnum. And interestingly, you would never
 see that online B2B in part because online B2B lagged online B2C e-commerce sales wise by
 10 or 15 years. And if you're talking about the small business market and the good example would
 be I'm a distributor of dental supplies and you are dentist Ryan. And dentist Ryan comes on to the
 marketing, you know, comes on to the Michael site, right? The Michael dental distributor site.
 And he picks the drills and the chairs and the everything else and he puts in his card.
 And it says 12,542 dollars. And he scratches his head and he says, you know what,
 or you scratch your head. Then his Ryan scratches his head and says, I have a visa. I got a
 MasterCard. I got an American Express option. I don't like those options for charges this big.
 I don't like to mix, you know, business and personal charges. I don't know if I'm going to pierce
 my limit. What else you got? Well, there's credit key. So credit key is another bug right at checkout.
 And you check on credit key and it asks you a couple of questions. And then it will give you
 an instant thumbs up or thumbs down. Behind the curtain, we are doing a ton of very fast
 analytics, looking at a lot of things. We do look at FICO, but we look at about, you know, 20 different
 attributes. And then we make a thumbs up thumbs down decision and it's for more than what's in the
 cart, right? So we'll say dentist Ryan, good news. Not only did we approve this $12,554 sale,
 but you have another $30,000 on top of that that you can spend here or anywhere else, right?
 And that's the idea of a time with behind credit key. It is there is no, not in this country,
 there's one in Australia. There is no integrated online e-commerce, instant analytics, instant
 approval are frankly disapproval, facility, except for hours. Yeah, I can speak to Valid,
 validate that working with we work with Cisco and Microsoft and some large B2B players. And I can
 absolutely validate that's been the biggest challenge. You've got this conversion of B2B and B2C
 things coming together, whether it's marketing tactics, whether it's e-commerce, all of those
 things, but the challenge has been on the payment side, especially having an option. So I mean,
 I, you know, when I first started doing my background, I had heard of you and all that,
 but that was the biggest thing that stuck out to us because it was just so real world for us.
 All right. So Ryan, we're going to do a little business here because I was very polite and sat down
 and listened to your questions and answered them. I think pretty effectively. So you've got to get
 me, you got to get me some introductions, but that's exactly the customers that we want. Cisco,
 Microsoft, I mean, they, they have giant sales, right? I mean, what I mean by that is they will sell
 $100 million to the State Department, right? But then you got that little guy, you know, has 10 or
 20 employees, wants to, you know, spend a lot less. And yeah, Microsoft in a second could get
 in the credit business and Cisco can get into the credit business, but who wants to hurt all those
 cats, right? What a headache because all I have to do is make, you know, one sale to the State
 Department or the Navy or Harvard University or you name it, right? And, you know, a zillion of those
 guys is not going to add up to that. And what a pain in the butt. I don't want to be in that. So
 if you can make those introductions, I'd be really, really appreciative. Well, guess what? I can do
 one better for you because our largest client is actually a company called ScanSource. And they
 are second in the line in the distribution and they work with those hundreds of partners and they
 buy and bulk from their check second in the supply chain from for the Cisco's and the Microsoft
 of the world. And they buy, they're a billion dollar company, you can look them up. And they buy
 for the hundreds of partners that like the ankle-biter's you just described for the Cisco's
 in Microsoft. And that's where you would probably want to start those discussions before.
 So we could talk shop about that. No, we're not going to stop talking shop. We're going to
 continue to talk shop. I'm kidding. But we work very nicely with distributors. We work with
 manufacturers. But sometimes they got their own credit options. They don't like to share that
 with the SMB marketplace. But, you know, distributors, right? I mean, the last thing they want to do
 is get in the credit business. And, you know, yeah. And so, and right now, a credit solution is
 offline, right? So you back out, back out of the card, it's abandoned. And then you figure out what
 bank you can go to to get alone. And that takes, I don't know, three weeks, five weeks, a whole
 lot of back and forth in questions. And the notion that a ScanSource or anybody else would be able
 to maintain that sale through that. I mean, you know, you tell me, but one in five, one in ten.
 Yeah. Once that, once they once they move offline, you're done, right? So this is an integrated
 online instant solution for credit for the, you know, you know, for small and medium-sized businesses.
 Yep. And at the end of the day, the distributors,
 they just want to make the sale. They don't want to get involved with the credit. They, they,
 they want to, they want to make the sale. They don't want the rest. They want to be able to make
 the sale and both the sale. Yeah. Not having readers on them. And that's the idea. Exactly.
 You know, if I'm, I was summarizing one thing from just talking with you and everything else,
 you know, you, right now it's big thinking about removing friction. And I feel like that might
 be your greatest talent potentially. It sounds like is you, you recognize where there's friction
 and you are finding ways to remove it. Is that fair?
 Uh, yeah. I think removing friction, yes. The other theme, another theme of mine is
 um, somebody else's garbage is my gold. So I've done a lot with remnant assets.
 Price line is a good example of that, right? It's a remnant asset as soon as that,
 as soon as the door closes on that airplane. Um, you know, then, um,
 you know, then that's a wasted asset. That asset is expired. You got an empty seat. It's
 towards zero. Uh, so uh, uh, following me around is, is uh, turning other people's garbage in a
 gold. Um, so uh, that's, that's another thing. Removing friction, thinking differently,
 uh, thinking, you know, people I've tried, of course, out of the box. Uh, but um, having things go
 through your mind and looking at the status quo and then say, why is that, you know, executed
 this way? And a lot of times Ryan, the reason for that has to do with legacy stuff, right? Uh,
 that uh, everything is kind of a composite and a tapestry. And um, you know,
 you put together a bunch of disparate pieces to come up with an ecosystem and then all of a sudden
 something changed, like one of the most remarkable changes ever is mobility. I mean, you know,
 now we can do everything alone. I mean, that's just crazy. Uh, and that has enabled so many things
 that were just still figuring out, right? The power of all that. Um, so, um, you know, a lot of the
 things that we used to do or a lot of the things and a lot of the systems that, you know, have been
 kind of the backbone of commerce and how we go about our day. Uh, all that is subject to
 incredible change. I mean, who would have thought about telemedicine, for God's sake, right? And
 no, doctor, doctor doesn't have to come to you. You don't have to come to the doctor. You can do it.
 You can do it, you know, over a screen. I mean, I'm crazy, right? So, um, but somebody just said,
 I don't see why you have to, you know, anybody has got to go anywhere. I mean, everybody stays,
 but you have a conversational, you know, over the phone. So, um, no different than what we're doing
 right now. I would not have thought that I could get Michael Loeb on a video conference and talk
 his brain and provide that value to our listeners as well as myself. You know, it's fascinating.
 I mean, is the, does the speed with which obviously, um, embracing change is, is so key to your,
 to your success and, and a lot of those things. But is the speed with which all of these things are
 happening? Is it just, is it, can you, is it to blow your mind, blows my mind? I, and I'm in it,
 I can serve myself an innovator. I can serve myself. I love change. I'm an entrepreneur. A lot of
 those things that you talked about, but the speed with which change is happening now is, is my numbing
 in some ways. And it's on an accelerated basis, uh, and what we have seen with COVID, uh,
 was talking to a friend of mine, Carolyn Everson. She's like number three or four or five on Facebook.
 And this is back in a conversation in April. And I said, what has been the profundity of this?
 What has been the, you know, what, what, what has this meant, right? Some in substance.
 And she said, the world has been accelerated by 10 years, right? Existing trends have been
 accelerated by 10 years. And, uh, I believe that's true. I really believe that's true. And the other
 thing, Ryan, you got to ask yourself, so interesting about inventions and entrepreneurs and companies.
 If I went to you, you know, two, three years ago, and I said zoom, right? The right answer is,
 there's no room for zoom. Have you heard of a little company called Facebook that got something
 called FaceTime, right? And if it's not them, it's Microsoft, and it's not them, it's Cisco,
 and if it's not them, there's no room for like, you know, half dozen people in a garage to create
 zoom. Yeah. You know, you're going to get, you know, but these are companies that are, you know,
 have, you know, a trillion dollar market caps and you are just going to get run over. How could
 there be a zoom? And it's amazing, right? Somebody created zoom. Yeah. So yeah, I would have been,
 I would have been a little held back just with Skype and like everything else, like I, I try to
 find like these white space and sometimes there's just better space. And I really appreciate your time.
 Let's, let's do a follow up. We can talk how we can get credit key. I would like to talk some
 more. So maybe I'll get Raleigh to schedule something. Okay, that'd be great. Yeah. Hey guys,
 really appreciate Michael Loeb coming on today of the Radcast. You know where to find us,
 the radcast.com and at v.rad.cast on Instagram. And we'll see you next time. Thanks Michael. Thank you.
 Yo, guys, what's up, Ryan offered here. Thanks so much for listening. Really appreciate it.
 Do us a favor. If you've been enjoying the Radcast, you need to share the word with a friend
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