Microdosing Goes Mainstream with Cesar Marin

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 You're listening to the Radcast, a top 25 worldwide business podcast.
 If it's radical, we cover it.
 Here's your host, Ryan Alford.
 Good friend of Ryan Alford. What's up, Caesar?
 How are you, Ryan? Good to be with you, man. Thank you so much for inviting me to this
 incredible podcast that you have. Like you said, we've greeted this bond. It's become a wonderful
 part of my life and this new journey that I'm on. And I appreciate you. And I appreciate you
 having me on. Yeah, man, I've been great getting to know you, you meet people digitally,
 and then once you start having real conversations, it's been, I don't know, enlightening. I've learned
 a lot from you. I hope you've been in at least learned a few nuggets for me and I,
 and it's fun watching your journey. It's a really fascinating discussion. We're going to be
 going down lots of paths today. Some surprising, I'm sure, for our listeners. I think there's
 there's stigmas, there's misinformation, there's a lot of things out there with
 alternative medicines and alternative natural sources of
 good that can come from things that are out there, but have historically been taboo. And I think
 it's fascinating for our listeners, especially knowing that our listeners are business executives
 and hard driving people trying to get ahead. And there might be alternative ways to enhance what
 they're doing. It's always great to hear new perspectives and I couldn't think of a better
 person to have seizures. So I do want to open it up for you, Caesar. It's a really fascinating
 story. Sometimes we have people on and it's just question to answer, but I think your journey,
 but I do want you to touch on the CNN and everything. But let's give, let's set the table,
 Caesar, for your journey, man. Perfect. I appreciate that, Ryan. It's been a whirlwind of the last
 six months. So about seven months ago, I'm in a very comfortable situation in my life. 25 years
 at CNN. It's a wonderful journey. Everything's going perfect. I have a great job, a great salary.
 And then CNN has taken over. It's bought by another corporation. And obviously when that happens,
 these are business decisions, businesses say, okay, where can we cut costs? What can we do?
 And I had seen the writing on a wall a bit since I've been here for 25 years. I make a good salary.
 I'm one of those persons that potentially could be on a spreadsheet in a boardroom meeting.
 How much is number 25 make? How long has he been here? And we just cut some of that. So that's sort
 of all happening in a time in my life where my curiosity had been opened up to psychedelics.
 Not so much psychedelic medicine, but my psychedelics themselves. And this curiosity came out of
 someone who had a journey with psilocybin mushrooms. And they said, they felt like a child. They said,
 when they had the mushrooms and and that peaked my interest a couple of weeks later, someone else that
 I was with talked to people on mushrooms and I was like, wait a minute. Why is why am I getting this
 calling? What is it that I'm finding mushroom around every corner that I turn? And I take my
 first journey and it really opens up my perceptions. It was for those who don't know, unlike other
 substances, what you get the effects out of psilocybin out of mushrooms depends on how much you
 tape, right? There's things called micro dosing, which is what I do and what my journey has become.
 There's medium dosage and there's macro doses. So depending on what you do or how much you do,
 it depends on what type of experience you have. But the first and real experience I have is a bit of
 a medium dose and perceptions open up like I'd never felt before from the feelings of what my
 hands feel like or to what the air sense with the trees looked like to what colors were. And it
 really opened something up where as a journalist, I said, what just happened? What would happen to
 me with this substance that this is something I've never felt before? And as I start to study and I
 start to research, I come across a fact that psychedelic are using, they're being used as medicine,
 they're being used to help depression, they're being used to help anxiety, they're being used
 PTSD, and they're also being helped to help people manage addictions. At the time, I was
 bowing a bit of a cannabis addiction, like most humans, I'm very vulnerable. I think vulnerability,
 accepting of vulnerability helps us to overcome what we're dealing with. And I said, maybe this is
 the way for me to crush that addiction that I have to cannabis. And I researched a little more
 and I come across this thing called microdusty. And what microdosing is for those who don't know
 is using a psychedelic substance in a very small amount where you don't get high, it's very
 perceptual. And I start using this microdosing practice to overcome my addiction. And at the same
 time, it opens up my neuropath ways to this potential of opening up a business and having a wave
 people to manifest the fact that they're a microdosing using psychedelics as performance
 enhancers. And that's how this whole journey of cultivating wisdom starts. In all of this, I
 then do end up losing my job. It's not losing my diet laid off. It's part of a business decision.
 And that just opens up the possibility to, okay, let's take this to this next level. Let's take
 this business that we've envisioned and thought up and now run with it. And it's helped open up
 the potential of the creativity aspect of my brain to say, what can we do next? Who can we align with
 to take this to the next step? And that's where I am right now. Cultivating wisdom is four months old.
 We've made incredible connections. We've made really good inroads into the psychedelic space.
 I know we move forward. Now we move forward in this journey.
 Man, I love it. It's fascinating. It's the last. When you not first met, and I learned about
 your background is, I don't know that, sure, I guess it being, I don't know, like a lawyer or
 something, a 25 year lawyer, but you just don't. He's something you're going to hear. Okay,
 I've been microdosing. I was 25 years of proofs for seeing in very straight lace job,
 but all that. And then the microdosing, I think it comes back to the, I don't know, the real
 aspect that's happening today with people opening their eyes to these things and becoming more
 accepting of things. But I do see there, I don't want to gloss over for audience. Talk about your
 25 years of seeing in just for a minute. Yeah. I know that's the past. But I think it helped
 like things you worked on. What was your passion? And what was what was the Caesar mayor? I know the
 of the previous 25 years like up to added. That's that's a great question because
 but it was my life. It's 25 years when you're doing something for 25 years that pretty much
 identifies who you are. That's what you do. That's who you are. And during these 25 years,
 I go into CNN as a news producer as someone who works on news, who works and obviously CNN is
 worldwide broadcasters. So we start news is elections, news is earthquakes, news is a lot of
 negative, negative stuff, which is part of it's part of news is part of life. That's part of the
 news cycle. And five years into my CNN career, I'm given the opportunity to produce sports. And
 I'm like, wait a minute, I'm on this sort of, I'm going to get paid to go to sporting events to
 read about sports and to tell stories about sports and still use the same production here that I
 have. And the journalistic judgment to now talk about sports. And they're like, yes, that is
 the possibility. So I transition into this sports production world of news. And it becomes amazing.
 It becomes an incredible journey of obviously covering Olympics, covering world cops, covering
 NBA finals, covering NFL super bowls, covering primarily and just delving into sports. And I was
 never the sports person who could tell you who played third baser that comes in 1945. But I knew
 that there was something about sports that really most people that there's something about sports,
 especially international sports, where you see there's countries where people live and die
 literally for their local teams or their national teams, where someone's weak and be
 depending on how their team did it will depend on how their team how their week goes. So if
 your team wins on Sunday, the rest of their week is awesome. Oh, yeah. Sort of. Yeah. And if
 their team loses, then they're weak and short for fanatic for reason. Correct.
 Correct. So I really, I really tied to that as pulling in people's emotions of how sports move
 them. And that's what really was fascinating about the time it sports, about producing sports of
 how the result and how you presented that result could really change someone's perspective for
 their week. So that that became really interesting. And the whole news factor, the whole news factor
 of how people consume news and house news can change your lives, right? Whether it's political,
 whether it's the weather, whether it's sports, there's something about news that's really
 incredibly interesting of how it creates and molds people's thinking. And that's what was really
 interesting about the 25 years there at CNN, where I was in front of the camera, which now I'm
 doing a lot more because I am trying to be a thought leader or becoming a thought leader for people
 my generation to talk about psychedelics and also the Hispanic community to talk about psychedelics.
 But not being in front of the camera and being behind the camera for all this time, it was really
 fascinating to get a sense that there was a huge audience out there listening to what we were
 doing and then almost waiting for every word that was coming out of how their team did or analyzing
 why their team lost or why the team won. So that was really interesting. That was really incredibly
 interesting about the 25 years at CNN. And also 25 years at one place helps you create these
 friendships and these bonds that will go on for a long time. Yeah, I don't talk to these people
 every day like I did before, but there's still people that I can contact once a week. How are you doing?
 How's it going? And they're also reaching out to me. How are you doing? So what you did? Lovely
 or at Canada like or wherever you were. So that's 25 years molded me. I was half of my life time.
 I'm 55, you know, 25 years. Yeah, it's half a lifetime. So it really molded me. And now it's using
 what I've learned in the sense of production value, keeping people's interests, keeping things
 short and alive that's now transitioning into this next stage in my life. Talk to me last thing
 on past life before we move into the the juicy stuff. I have story or like most exciting like
 athlete or celebrity or anything. Did you get to cover anyone or meet anyone or favorite story?
 Like from those 25 years, I'm sure you did a lot, but is there one that sticks out? Funny because
 with all these sports, I cover my favorite sport. My niche sports is cycling. Okay, because as a
 Colombian, I grew up playing soccer, right? That was just as a Colombian as a Latin American
 soccer sport of your life. But I played football. But as a child, I love playing goalkeeper and
 play goalkeeper as a youth. And when I get to high school, I'm hoping to play goalkeeper on
 the high school team. And the coach says, Guy, you're 55. You're, can you touch the crossbar without
 jumping? And I was like, no, but I'm really good job. I'm really good goalkeeper and I dive and
 I'm communicate. And he's, it's not going to happen, guy. But the other two dudes that are trying
 out are like a foot taller than you are. It's just don't waste your time. Don't waste my time.
 And it, and it was funny because I was like, I'm not going to play it in. And at that time,
 the Colombian cyclist started going over to Europe and started doing well. My story short,
 cycling became my passion, cycling became my thing. And last year, a couple of people were
 covering the Georgia France. It was the last year that Georgia France. And the producer that was
 there actually has one of my lifetime favorite heroes actually caught me in FaceTime. And I'm like,
 who is this? And I answer it. And it's Robyn EQ in one of the best sprinters cycling sprinters
 has ever had from Australia. And I'm like, oh my god. And he's there. The Georgia France. It's
 the last day they're on the Shambles. And this guy's talking to me because the other producer had
 talked to him about myself. And it was just one of those, one of those moments of holy cow. Wow.
 This guy's calling me. This is my toddler hero or my sports hero. And now he's calling me. So
 that was definitely one moment that that that lived up to its hype of living in sports. The rest
 were again, this deadline senders that getting it right, that making sure you're on top of stuff,
 that's always that exhilarating on an everyday basis in live TV, which made every day awesome.
 But that that that moment in particular meeting we're having a childhood hero call me was like,
 okay, that was too much. That's great, man. I love hearing those stories and even you being
 around athletes, being stars, having that child like reaction. And it's back to what you said,
 sports being such a, I don't know, moving thing for all people. And I think it's also like just
 the escape from all the other bullshit. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. You're right. And go ahead.
 It's funny, though, talking about sports stars again, where once you're in this a bit,
 you realize that they're everyday people. There's most of them more normal, just people with
 wives and hormones and families and everything else that just, yeah, they're portrayed as these
 incredibly superstars or super heroes, but they're normal everyday people. And it was, I think,
 once you're working news and you break that veil of that fan hood of, oh, this it's
 NBA star, worse than NFL star, that they're just everyday people and I'm doing a job to cover
 their story that then you put them not on this pedestal that some fans have, but then on this level,
 okay, they're everyday people. That's right. And it's funny. You say that I interview a lot of
 celebrities and entertainers. I have my wall here to my right that and it's I feel that same way
 having to get to know a lot of them and in my career doing marketing with NFL teams and stuff,
 it is like we're all human. And we often put them on pedestals, but and they may have advantages.
 We all have to live life. It's making a living life psychedelics man. When we, when you and I first met,
 I'll be transparent. I did some mushrooms in college like once. I experimented like all kids do
 in some way. And I remember it being it was fun and all that, but like I've kind of left that
 life in the past, but it's been fascinating hearing about the micro dosing and talk to me about
 at the first time you did a medium dose or something like that. Would you classify that as high?
 Or was it just oh yeah, no, I was high. I was definitely high. I was there was definitely high.
 There was visuals. There was perceptions of senses that weren't there before. It definitely
 wasn't a macro dose, which I've done to a macro dose since I started using psychedelics,
 which is a totally different experience. But going back to the micro dosing, which is
 now getting much more mainstream media attention as more people are using micro dosing to enhance
 their lives and talking about it that people's perceptions have changed, right?
 Psychedelics before until about 10 years ago again had this incredible stigma of it was people
 for just tripping out and tripping balls and losing your minds or it's just going to raise or
 it's just people going crazy. And as studies start to grow and studies start to
 use psychedelics to treat different human conditions that we have, more people start to open up
 their minds and people's childhood curiosities are poked out of way to many. Let me go back and
 read that again. Psychedelics are being used to help with depression and they're being used
 to help with anxiety and PTSD. And to me what micro dosing has done was it's helped me be
 the fact that it's sub perceptual, the fact that it's very small amount. So just so people
 understand a medium dose, which is a dose where you're going to feel some
 eccentric perceptuals, you'll get some visuals. That medium dose is about
 gram and a half to two and a half grams of psilocybin. I'm again mushrooms. I'm not a big
 fan of the word magic mushrooms because I'm a big believer that the magic doesn't come from
 the mushroom. I could sit here and eat all the mushrooms in the world and sit here and go, okay,
 where is the magic? The magic comes from the human, right? So yeah, it's using the medicine,
 using the psilocybin to then open up those perceptive neural pathways to opening up your heart
 to then move forward. And what micro dosing does, at least for myself, because again, I can only
 talk about my personal experience, right? Sort of everyone's experience can be different,
 everyone's what they can get out of it can be different. So it's micro dosing to me is that
 practice of using a very small amount of psilocybin. So I do 200 milligrams to 250 milligrams
 on a protocol. It costs for it to be one day on two days off. So today's a dosage day. What do
 you feel? I'm going through the day and all of a sudden I go, man, my life is really good. I have
 a good life. I have a good life. I have a wonderful life. My kids are healthy. I have my own job. I have
 friends. I've made these connections. Life is good. Life is really good. I'm not high. I'm not feeling
 dizzy. I'm not feeling out of the world. No, I'm feeling fine. Then that second day, what they call
 a transition day is the medicines, the medicines now leaving your body. And how do I yesterday
 had that anxiety? How do I deal with it? How do I deal with it yesterday? How do I deal with it
 today? And then that third day is what they call an integration day, which is you integrate what
 you learned the last two days into your normal day life without having the medicine. So that's
 when you're in the car and someone cuts you off in the highway, you're going to sit there and
 blow on the horn and shoot in the bird or you're going to say, wait a minute, I wouldn't have done that
 yesterday or the day before. Why am I going to do that today? That person's not going to feel the
 poison that I'm feeling in my body that rage. I mean, I'm feeling it. They're not feeling so
 wide. Let me just, let me take a deep breath. I don't know what they're going through. Maybe they
 need to go home. Their kids are sick. They're boss needs them to get back to, I don't know. So just
 go ahead. Go ahead. In other words, it doesn't, unless you hit my car, then we're going to have to stop.
 But if not, then why am I going to get to let these peripheral things ruin my day when
 they're not feeling well? So it's awesome to see that a lot of walks of life and more people are
 talking about psychedelic medicine and microdosing. I'm sure that five years ago, if you were to
 look and LinkedIn and did a search on the hashtags psychedelics or a microdosing,
 not much would come up. Now go to your LinkedIn and search in microdosing and see how much comes up
 and see the advances in psychedelic medicine. And part of what I want to do, part of my mission is
 to show people that hey, here's a business owner, who's a father, who's a husband, who's a son,
 who's a member of his community, who volunteers, who will vote. He's a normal everyday he
 went being and he's using psychedelics. Yes, he's using it as a life performance enhancer. He's
 using it as a life hack. He's not using it may responsibly. He's not going off to get a high. He's
 not drowning his problems in it. No, he's using it to be a better person to be more creative, to be
 more alert, to be more present, to be more awakened of what's happening. And it's like I was listening
 to his podcast yesterday, someone said, they used to tell us, don't use psychedelics because they're
 going to change your mind. That's the whole purpose. The purpose is to change your
 morning and not live in that rut of that constant DMT that default mode network that the brain is in.
 They were programming us not to be awake. Yeah, that's what that's the problem of everything,
 those everybody thinks things happen to them, rather than for them or that they're in control.
 And so, and funny here in the, oh, no, I'll change. And it's, have you looked in the mirror,
 buddy? It's like, you need to change. And I've had those talks with myself. Like, we all,
 if we're not changing, if we're not evolving, we're not growing. And that's the point of this is,
 I have kids, and I'm sensitive to like marijuana and mushrooms and all that, not because I have,
 I'm really like, frowned down at it, but I just don't want it like easily in their hands. But at
 the time, I'm like, these things, somehow we've made it okay for pharmaceutical drugs that are
 chemically based. And then if anything, it's abused, of course, yeah, you get hired to whatever,
 but we've created these categories that are just so arbitrary. It seems for certain classifications.
 Why aren't we just figuring out? We have so many issues with mental health and everything else.
 Why aren't we exhausting every avenue of things available to us?
 Yeah, definitely. And here's the thing, it's sort of not too knock on modern medicine,
 because modern medicine is incredible, modern medicine is amazing. But pharmaceuticals have
 gotten to the point where they've gotten into so many doctors, pockets that there's people
 potentially go to a doctor and the doctor can tell you, you know what, I don't know what you have,
 but I have a pill that might work. Okay, but what is, okay, and if that one doesn't work,
 then maybe there's this other one that might work. Okay, doctor, but let me ask you a question,
 is are they habit forming potentially? Okay, are there side effects? Here, let me get you
 the sort of whole list of side effects in the back room. Exactly. Okay, so wait a minute, how about
 if I let Mother Nature try to heal me first? Mother Nature put these wonderful plant medicines
 on the earth. Let me at least explore that. Let me see how that might work before I go ahead and
 start pumping some pharmaceutical stuff into my body. Then my work might not work. They might actually
 and mask, might mask the problem, but not address the problem. And I think that's sometimes a problem,
 which sort of we need to address the mental health crisis that we're going through. And yeah,
 you hit upon it, Ryan, and it's incredibly important that we have these discussions, that we have
 these discussions in all its families, in our communities, that we're able to talk and say,
 hey, look, we're humans. Depression is a human condition. Anxiety is a human condition. PTSD,
 obviously, that's something different because that comes from past experiences, but we're able to
 talk about this. We said we set these bus lane tables so that people come and can talk about their
 issues openly and not hide them. Because what happens is when we don't, when we hide them,
 that's when we have these issues. That's when we have these situations of people
 going after the bed. It's incredible the mental health crisis that we're going through. And
 some of it, like I said, is that lack of communication, that lack of being vulnerable. We're all
 taught that we have to be an alpha male and we have to be an alpha female and we have to be
 about everything and don't cry and don't be vulnerable and don't show weakness. Why? That's
 the sort of, that's part of humanism. And if I show my weakness and express my weakness,
 maybe someone can help me so that it's not a weakness anymore so that maybe I can use that
 weakness to make myself better, to strengthen myself, to understand what that weakness is and where
 it comes from and address it instead of just masking it because we are going down a road that the
 mental health crisis that we're going through could expand with the way things are with the economy,
 which is to division this that exists in the world that we have this potential of just people
 suffering much more mental health crisis. And if we can address the issues by talking about them
 and then also poking at people's childhood curiosity, look, wait, hold on a second,
 Mother Nature gave me this medicine that could help me center, that could help me be a little more
 focused, that could help me be more creative. Then let me see if that might help. Let me see if
 that might help close that door of thinking too much of the past. And because right, let's be
 honest, depression comes from thinking too much in the past, right? If I would have done this,
 if I would have done that, if I would have thought this house instead of that, if I would have made
 this business deal instead of that business deal, if that's the past that's gone, there's nothing
 we do, we're not going to bring it back. So if you sit there and just think about the past,
 where that brings on depression, the ability to close that door a bit, I wasn't going to be
 living with it's a human condition or that human condition of thinking too much in the future.
 Is this really going to happen? Is this it? Am I going to lose my job in the year?
 My friend got cancer, am I going to get cancer? No, that's just you can't live five weeks from now.
 You have to live the present moment. And when you're able to do that, when you're able to live
 in what we have right now, which is the only thing that really exists, that's where the beautiful
 moments happen. The past is the past. I can't really live that the future. You don't,
 you know, that's not guaranteed. So the only thing that's guaranteed is this exact moment that
 we have right now. And if there's something, if there's a substance that the mother nature is
 given as they could help us be more present, they could help us be more in the now, more in this
 moment and more open to what's going on around this, that might help with this mental health crisis
 that we're going through. Talk to me. I think the million dollar question if I'm a listener
 and even myself. So we're talking about a substance that's illegal,
 not currently. Yes, yeah, openly. Two part question. One, do you worry about that?
 Today, I would think they have better things to do than to be busting microdozers. But
 that's a b is, are we closer? It seems medical marijuana and certain things are further
 down the road than than the mushrooms, but correct. Talk to me about like where that's headed
 in just the current situation. Yeah. So one, like you said, psychedelics are still a class
 one scheduled narcotic, right? Yeah. This was a government who said it was in the 60s,
 we can't crush the protest against the war and we can't crush everything that's
 trying to hold the government accountable. So let's ban the substances of some people
 are using to become more awake to become more aware. Yeah, like you said, this is still the legal
 substance. I grow my own medicine. You can buy grow kits nowadays, personal grow kits,
 that you can grow your own medicine at home. I think that's the most beneficial way
 to, to use psychedelic medicine, especially psilocybin. I know that there's a whole bunch of
 other psychedelics out there that people are using, whether it's LSD, whether it's ayahuasco,
 whether it's DMT. I only talk about psilocybin because that's the only experience that I have.
 So I have my own medicine at home. Like you said, I think the police have too many other things
 to worry about and deal with to come door to door say, hey, I heard you have a couple mushrooms in
 there. And I mean, we have a search warrant to come into your house. I don't think that's going
 to happen now. If I was growing mushrooms and I'm driving it around with two, three pounds of
 mushrooms delivering them or whatever that, and that becomes more drug dealing instead of drug.
 And again, anything's a drug. It was funny. I was here in a podcast that someone was doing the other
 day and they were interviewing someone who has a wine vineyard and he said, you're a drug dealer.
 Wine is a drug. It's just a substance that puts you in a different state, but you're not
 being, you're not your total self. You're a drug dealer because you grow drugs. So yes.
 So psychedelics, that's pretty good. At least right at the beginning when I have
 a few Doritos, Rorios, but maybe not later. And afterwards, yeah. Wait a minute. What is that?
 So yeah, no, definitely the audience needs to know that yes, this is still a illegal substance.
 So you, but there's a lot of things that are illegal that people do. And if you're using it
 to better yourself, if you're using it with intentions, if you're using it responsibly,
 then I don't, I personally don't see an issue in it. But it's a risk you're willing to take
 for the benefits that you get knowing that the likelihood is very small. Exactly. Exactly.
 But do you see the legislation? Give me your, give me your, you're, you're so close to this now.
 Give me your crystal ball with wind. Let's say a micro dosage of mushrooms might be illegal.
 Are we talking five years? We still talking 10 plus. I'd say 10 plus. I think there's still,
 because let's go, let's follow the money. Yeah. Let's follow the money. So until psilocybin is able to
 make money for the corporations, you think big farmer wants substances out there that's going to
 get people to get off of their SSRIs? Of course not. So and those people have big pockets. Those
 people have the years of congressional lobbyists. So we're on the sea saw right now, the psychedelic
 world. We're on this side of companies like Compass Pathways who have patent already filed
 for synthetic psilocybin who are in stage three trials of psychedelic medicine. But these people
 have money. These people have the money to also then talk to lobbies to also open doors to Congress.
 And then on this side, we have the holistic. I hate to use this sort of we use you we've talked to
 you and I have talked about this in in discussions. We've had the hippie. The hippie trippy community.
 Exactly. The long hair, long beard, burger size. We're saying wait a minute. Are you serious?
 The earth grows this? Why do I need to go to a doctor to get a prescription to then be able to
 microdose? Why? So on the sea saw. But there's more people standing in the middle of the sea saw.
 And that's how we're getting legislations. Paths like it did in Oregon, like they have in Utah.
 There's I think there's 16 states that have bills on the docket this year to where they're decriminalized
 or make the metal glue use of psilocybin and other psychedelics legal. So we're going down. We're
 going down the right pathway. Yeah, it's just I don't know what it takes to get it over that hump.
 I don't know like the medical marijuana seems like on its way. It's already there, but the it's already
 there. Yeah, it's right there. I think it's the more people that stand in the middle of the sea saw
 and could help it not go totally one way or the other way that's going to help it a little by
 little mule. And again, it's a perception. It's it more studies that come out. The more
 mass media that talks about it, the more we can get across this hurdle. Like you talked about it
 because let's be honest, there's so a huge stigma that exists. There's still a huge. There's
 half the population. If you say psychedelics, they're going to go, wait a minute. Hold on a second.
 That's not that's way beyond. I don't know about that. There's people losing their mind. That's
 people. No, and that's that's the reason why I created the apparel brand, right? That's it.
 Someone says, Oh, it's not trippy. It's not psychedelic. It's not. In other words, someone sees me
 in this as opposed to as opposed to me wearing something tie dye because I want to manifest the fact
 that I'm using mushrooms. They're helping my life. Someone sees me with someone wearing something
 like that. What are you going to say? Oh, he's a hippie. He's a stoner. He's out in the woods. He's
 out going in a grateful, dead conscious. I love the grateful dead. So don't get me wrong. And
 not that there's anything wrong with that sort of, but that's not going to help the movement get
 to the next step. And that sort of it sees people in the middle of the sea saw again. They can wear
 something like this and someone can up to them and come up to them and say, Oh, you microdose?
 I've heard about that. I've read about that. Cultivate me with your wisdom so that maybe I can
 smile like you're smiling. Right? Maybe I can find this balance in my life that I'm looking for
 this mental health and emotional balance that's missing in my life. And that's what it's going to
 take. In other words, and it's little by little, right? It's poking people's childhood curiosity.
 It's people being more open to it. It's out there. More studies. It's still in diapers. Now it's
 still psychedelic medicine. It's still in diapers. And again, it's still that stigma. It's still
 exist. But when I think about it, and I go, Okay, I've gotten to the point that I've been able to
 convince my 80 year old mother that psychedelics have transformed my life that she is now. Okay,
 what about it? She's seeing it in a different one. She's seeing it in a different light. She's
 looking people using this responsibly. People are using it to better than themselves. Then I get it.
 I understand now. And that's what we need. But that happens at one person at a time. That happens
 with people like myself where people say, Oh, wait, look at him. Yeah, he said, normal everyday
 human being. He's using psychedelics, really? Okay, months. That's interesting. And it's helped
 him overcome his anxiety of losing his job and what can happen next. And it's helped him overcome
 his depression. Oh, yeah, I could have sat there and been depressed. It loves my job at 25
 years at the age of 55. What do I do next? What could have sat in a
 part of the depression tears? But no, psychedelics helped me to say, Okay, wait a minute. And that's
 fine. Let's let's take everything into account. Right. Use the 25 years to you out at CNN to open doors.
 All right, because a 25 year career at CNN opens up people's eyes. Oh, wait a minute. Okay,
 wait a minute. This guy, this isn't just some guy that's been tripping for 25 years. Now all of a
 sudden talk about psychedelics. This is someone who had a career who is now using psychedelics to
 better himself to using him as a performance and answer to move forward in his new chapter in his
 life. And as you do some responsibly, this is interesting. So the question was, when do we get
 there? We're getting there. We're getting there. But it's the responsibly use of psychedelics.
 It's the more people talking about it, more everyday people that then we get through that sort
 of business owners. Look, people in Silicon Valley were using microdosing to be more creative.
 So the more we have these stories, the more people talk about it, the more people are
 hoping about what they're using and not hiding it because I'm a big believer Ryan that if you
 heal and you heal in silence, then what's you're missing part of the purpose? Yeah. Now, obviously,
 I'm not going to sit here and stand at the top of the mountain and say, everybody use psychedelics.
 You're going to change your life because it might not be for everybody. But if I can talk to people
 and share my story of how it's changed me and how it's helped me open up and be a better person
 and poke it one or two people's childhood curiosity, that's amazing because I've had more than one
 person you reach out to me and go, wow, Caesar, I had no clue. Thank you. Thank you for opening up
 that possibility because now I'm microdosing and I see it. I see what you were talking about. I see
 would you were manifesting the sort of sense of being present and being aware and saying,
 you know what, that before I had that issue or that underlying whether addiction or condition
 that I had, then now I can look it in a different way. I can look at it from the outside world
 of saying, oh, wait a minute. Do I really need that in my life anymore? Oh, with that depression,
 how did I, how can I instead of living in that depression, being in on the outside and say,
 what is it that's making me feel depressed? What is it that's making me feel anxious? And that's to
 me, that's what psychedelic medicine has done to me. Tell me, open up that consciousness,
 that consciousness of why am I feeling this way? Why am I feeling that anxiety? And instead of
 continuing that I'm anxious and then what's going to happen and then this is going to happen and
 then it's not going to, I'm going to say, oh, and it's going to be horrible instead of going,
 okay, wait a minute. Why am I feeling this way? Let me figure this out. Let me, I'm not the first
 person that's feeling this. I'm not the first person to start a business. I'm not the first person
 to be an entrepreneur at 55. Let me take a deep breath. Let me take accountability for what I have
 and let me go from there. And that's, I'm hoping that psychedelic medicine can do that to other people
 and then other people can say, this is why I'm, this is how it's transformed me and this is why
 potentially it might be something that you should look at. I love it, man. I think we could talk
 for two hours about this. I have other questions. I think maybe we'll have to have a part two
 about, I think it's a positioning issue. Obviously, it's illegal, but mine that mine goes out in marketing.
 Ingredient marketing works when the ingredient isn't polarizing. So it needs to be about the
 benefits and not the ingredient. Or even, I might even go down that road with the word microdosing,
 even though that's what it is. It's, it's, it helps you take control of the voice in your head.
 That's what, and I think exactly what that, and so I would be marketing that and mood,
 creativity increase, mood increase, and taking control of that voice, those need to lead the
 discussion. And then what if I told you what if I could told you you could take control of the
 voice in your head? What if I told you you could boost your mood? What if I told you it was a
 hundred percent natural? What if I told you that it's illegal? Would you, would that make any sense
 to you? So see the commercial. Yeah, no, you're right. And you're absolutely, you're absolutely
 correct. And God, I got a lot of that from discussions you and I had where we talked about the
 moment, if psychedelics is the first word that comes out of your mouth, you're going to get a lot,
 you're going to turn a lot of people off, a lot of people going to change the channel, a lot of
 people are going to go, that's not for me, a lot of people, and that came to me from a lot of
 discussions you and I had, yeah, that it was like, okay, the first word then needs to be transformation.
 Yeah, because you're playing defensive. If you start with psychedelics, you're playing
 defense from the get go and you can't have, it's not that you're being deceptive, but you don't,
 if you're all defense the entire time, then we're not having a productive conversation about it.
 And like you said, you're, you're already turning people off. People are either rolling their eyes
 or they go, you know what, let me check something else on my phone. But once you say, hey,
 how about if I could tell you that you could turn off the voice in your head,
 how about if I could tell you that you can help close those doors to anxiety and depression,
 how about if like it, talk to you about overcoming an addiction that was controlling my life
 and how I did it, if you use those as your entry point and then your selling point and then you
 say, this is how I did it. Yeah, be like, oh, wait, hold on a second, because once,
 the moment that you say, oh, I use psychedelics, people go, that's not me. Yeah.
 The moment you say, I suffered depression, people go, so do what? Yeah, exactly. Oh, I've dealt
 with anxiety. Oh, wow, I've dealt with anxiety. I had an addiction that was crippling me.
 Wow, I sometimes feel that way. Once people have that sense that he's like me,
 he feels what I'm feeling. He's going through what I'm going. How did he change?
 Oh, wait a minute, did it through psychedelic medicine? Wow, how does that work? Tell me more,
 tell me more, I did it. So you're right, Ryan, especially with this subject, especially with this
 subject, it has to be openness. It has to be showing vulnerability, but it has to be
 I suffer what you suffer. I deal with what you deal with, and this is how I was able to overcome
 that. This is how I was able to keep that in check. So you're right, it's very smart. It's a
 smart way to look at this and to sell this. And if psychedelic medicine is to move forward,
 that's the way it has to be presented. It has to be presented as the potential change stuff
 that you haven't been able to change in your life. And that is how it works. Where can everybody
 keep up with you and cultivating wisdom? What are the channels?
 Yeah, Instagram is the biggest platform that I run on cultivating.wistom. What I try to do is share
 my practice, share some of the wisdom that I've gained.
 Psychedelic medicine. So cultivating.wistom on Instagram is a great place.
 There's from there you can find a link tree that has the LinkedIn. If you want to have me speak
 it, one of your events to talk about mental health balance. And there's other places where it's
 sort of again, because nowadays everyone can have five of their own channels, right? So we're on
 TikTok with a little bit more the Haper audience. We have a YouTube channel that has some other
 stuff that we do and more in depth things that we're doing. But definitely cultivating.wistom
 on Instagram is a good place to start because you can find a link tree in there in the bio
 to find other stuff. I got that cultivatingwism.net is the apparel store, which is the apparel
 branch of cultivating wisdom. So that the idea is that if you're microdosing that you wear something
 like this and you open up these conversations, you poke at people's childhood curiosities.
 And again, it's about this discussion. It's about having these discussions. It's about being
 open. It's about if you're microdosing, share with other people. Share that you have a dinner
 and bite people over and say, hey, come on over and let's chat. It sees open conversations
 that then people can say, you know what? I sometimes I'm depressed. I sometimes I'm anxious. I'm
 sometimes have this mental imbalance that I'm dealing with that maybe this might be able to help.
 So it's these conversation openers that I think that that are going to be important for us
 moving forward to deal with this mental health and balance that we're all suffering.
 These are really appreciated, man. Everybody needs to go check you out. Follow you. You're very
 approachable. I know once I get to know you, they'll love you and appreciate your perspective.
 Appreciate that. Thank you so much for coming on the show, man.
 Now, Ryan, again, I appreciate you. Incredibly, you opened up my eyes to a lot of things
 in the business world. So I'm incredibly grateful for you. I'm very honored that you're in my
 circle and humbled that you're in my circle because again, I look up to you for what you've done
 with your personal brand. I've looked up to you at how you're like me. You're a father who
 you're most important title in life is not CEO. It's not entrepreneur. It's not I have all
 these businesses. It's father. That is the most important label that you have. And I feel the
 same way. So I'm glad that we're both on that pathway. And again, I appreciate you. I appreciate
 you. Thank you for having me on your podcast. Thank you for the audience to listening all the way
 through. And again, like Ryan said, on there, if anyone has questions or anything, please reach out.
 I'm more than happy to answer questions. Hey guys, you'll find us the radcast.com search for
 microdosing. You'll actually find all the highlight clips and the full episode from today. You
 know where to find me at Ryan offer and all the platforms. We'll see you next time on the radcast.