You Are Good, You Are Enough with Lodro Rinzler #221

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<v Speaker>What if that voice telling you you're broken or fundamentally flawed is wrong?

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<v Speaker>That's the radical message of today's guest, Buddhist teacher and best selling author Lodro Rinzler.

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<v Speaker>His new book is called Your Good, You Are Enough.

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<v Speaker>Lodro teaches a powerful idea from Tibetan Buddhism called basic goodness, that beneath all our self-doubt, anger, and anxiety, there's something awake and whole already present in us.

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<v Speaker>It sounds like a self-help slogan, but in fact, it's something we can directly experience ourselves in meditation and in everyday life.

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<v Speaker>In our conversation, Lodro and I talk about how to trust your own goodness without using this powerful idea as an excuse to avoid growth.

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<v Speaker>And how to see goodness in difficult people without excusing harm.

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<v Speaker>I'm Scott Snibbe, and this is How to Train a Happy Mind.

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<v Speaker>Lodro Rinzler, it's a pleasure to have you on How to Train a Happy Mind to talk about your new book, You Are Good, You Are Enough.

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<v Speaker>Thanks so much for having me.

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<v Speaker>I'm, I'm very excited to be here.

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<v Speaker>Yeah.

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<v Speaker>My pleasure.

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<v Speaker>And this book is based on teachings I, I know that had a big impact on you by Chögyam Trungpa, who's really one of the few innovators who have tried to adapt the extraordinary canon of Tibetan Buddhism, um, creatively to Western students.

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<v Speaker>Right.

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<v Speaker>And this is, you're continuing that lineage.

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<v Speaker>Yeah.

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<v Speaker>Well, it is interesting one because, you know, Chögyam Trungpa really said okay.

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<v Speaker>There's this whole thing about how we are inherently awake and whole and good and don't know what the best term is.

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<v Speaker>And she, he used this term in Tibetan drönpa sangwa which you won't find classic Tibetan Buddhist text.

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<v Speaker>So he sort of strung it together and said, well, that means basically good.

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<v Speaker>And went with that.

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<v Speaker>So he said, basic goodness.

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<v Speaker>And uh, at this point it's become ubiquitous here in the West where you'll hear insight teachers like Sharon Salzberg or Tara Brach use it, you know, er using it.

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<v Speaker>Zen teachers are using it.

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<v Speaker>As long as there have been people, you know, this idea that we are not even idea, this experience that we are whole complete awake as is that we possess the same nature of the Buddha himself, that same wakefulness.

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<v Speaker>So, you know, I think it's a nice.

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<v Speaker>Almost sometimes quaint way of putting it in today's world.

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<v Speaker>Oh, you're basically good.

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<v Speaker>Oh, that's nice.

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<v Speaker>But there's real profundity and real lineage and as you said, history to it.

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<v Speaker>And in, you know, some aspects of Christian culture, we have the idea of original sin, you know, which is a, a at odds.

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<v Speaker>Like the, the morality of most religions is all the same, but the, the, um, uh, what do they say about reality?

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<v Speaker>And our nature is a little bit different, right?

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<v Speaker>So it's comes as a surprise to many people.

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<v Speaker>You're a hundred percent right, and I think a lot of us have been raised with either that point of view or even a capitalistic point of view, but I was just looking over fence over there at my neighbor who's a Christian pastor, you know, and he and I get together semi-regularly and you know, he goes, yeah, so you guys start from the place of you're basically good and that when things happen, they're like mistakes, but it doesn't mean that you're bad.

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<v Speaker>And I go, yeah.

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<v Speaker>He goes, man, that's good.

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<v Speaker>You know, it's almost envy at that point, like that's your starting point because my starting point is a very different one and it's hard sell and, that's everywhere.

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<v Speaker>The sense that we're basically a mess.

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<v Speaker>And I don't wanna just blame Christianity.

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<v Speaker>I, I think, as I mentioned a moment ago, capitalism, patriarchy, a lot of these things have just gotten us into this state where we're, we believe that we're not good enough as we are, you know, oh, you don't look a certain way.

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<v Speaker>We've got a whole industry called makeup that will help you, or you feel a little round, okay, we've got a fitness industry that's a bazillion dollar industry that will make you feel better.

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<v Speaker>And there's always going to be another product, another thing you can do.

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<v Speaker>And then you get to be happy.

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<v Speaker>That's capitalism.

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<v Speaker>That's how they keep us going.

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<v Speaker>And for us to say, what if that's not the source of my happiness is very revolutionary.

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<v Speaker>And I know you've talked about this in previous episodes, but just the fact that the very roots of the Buddhist tradition come from.

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<v Speaker>Sort of going against the stream of what we normally see in society and the, the idea that contentment, happiness, joy, these things are something that we can develop a relationship with ourselves is pretty revolutionary, as you said, for most people.

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<v Speaker>You know what my Teacher said recently, Venerable Renee.

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<v Speaker>It was beautiful.

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<v Speaker>'Cause I, I've always kind of struggled with this concept, like, why, why is our fundamental nature good?

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<v Speaker>Why are that, why is that deeper?

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<v Speaker>And he said.

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<v Speaker>Well, the delusions aren't aligned with reality and your goodness is you know, you, you also have a daughter, I believe.

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<v Speaker>I have and, uh, she's turning three, and we are at this really interesting moment where she has up to this point really just exhibited what I would call basic goodness.

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<v Speaker>There's just, again, this innate confidence in wakefulness presence, even compassion that flows from that.

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<v Speaker>When I say we're at an interesting moment, it's because there is a little bit of what, and this is actually a term that you'll see often in, in some Buddhist , Buddhist circles, not others, uh, what we would call the trap of doubt.

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<v Speaker>This sort of little of second guessing of the goodness of our awake nature that's starting to come in where she's starting to say, well, what if they don't wanna play with me?

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<v Speaker>We were talking the other day, I was dragging her on a wagon and we had friends coming over and a little bit of an older friend, you know, six to her three, and I said, you know, Ila's coming.

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<v Speaker>And she goes, I said, do you wanna play dollies with her?

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<v Speaker>And she goes, maybe she say no.

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<v Speaker>And I just saw her being like, what if she, what if I put myself out there to play with this kid for this thing I love?

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<v Speaker>And this kid just says, I don't want to do that.

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<v Speaker>that's dumb.

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<v Speaker>I just got down on her level and I said, okay, like, what if she says yes?

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<v Speaker>She goes, oh, that'd be good.

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<v Speaker>I said, yeah, so, so, you know, it's really brave for us to, to ask these things, but she could say yes and that would be really fun.

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<v Speaker>And even if she says, no, that's okay, but it's not about you.

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<v Speaker>She may not just wanna play with the dolls and, you know, but just to notice this like little thing starting to creep in already, because again, it is everywhere and it is so insidious, this little voice.

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<v Speaker>But I'm talking about what keeps us away from the state.

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<v Speaker>I, the main thing I want to emphasize, I'm sure you've seen this in your daughter as well, is that we're born with this wakeful energy.

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<v Speaker>You know, if she wasn't some wonderful Buddhist teacher in a past life then she's really starting off strong in this one because she'll sometimes just hold my face and she'll go, focus, daddy, focus, you know, be here because she demands that of me.

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<v Speaker>I find that, uh, this experience that we're calling basic goodness, it feels very much like any other time of wakefulness when I'm on the cushion that when she's holding my face and saying focus, I am 100% there there is a natural expansiveness that I would equate to buddhanature.

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<v Speaker>I don't think it is a different thing.

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<v Speaker>When I am hugging her at the end of the day.

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<v Speaker>And, you know, it's just like a hundred percent being there for the hug.

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<v Speaker>I always, you know, afterwards, think about the old saying from Seung Sahn that when you eat, just eat when you drive, just drive.

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<v Speaker>It has that quality of like, that's what enlightenment is.

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<v Speaker>We are just 100% with the thing as it is without judgment, without story, without distance from the experience.

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<v Speaker>So I think that is what basic goodness is.

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<v Speaker>And you say this in your book, right?

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<v Speaker>The goal isn't to intellectualize basic goodness to experience it.

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<v Speaker>So what helped you cross that line?

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<v Speaker>Because, um, it's not always instantaneous, um, for people, and some people have not experienced it yet, maybe many people listening to this.

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<v Speaker>When and how did that happen for you, that you crossed the line to really feeling your fundamentally good, basically good.

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<v Speaker>Yeah, I, I, uh, cheated a little bit in that I'm second generation western Buddhist, so I, by the time I came around, my parents had already been practicing in that tradition, uh, for a number of years.

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<v Speaker>So I don't think it was a conscious decision on their part, but they really infused basic goodness into the household that when I, as a kid made a mistake, and I would, because I was a kid, it didn't mean I was bad or wrong that there's something wrong with me.

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<v Speaker>I think that slight distinction, it's like you're basically good and something happened, there was a mistake that was made, and we can talk about the mistake is different than stop being a bad kid.

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<v Speaker>So I was very lucky that it was sort of infused into me early.

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<v Speaker>But then I would say honestly in the last six years, uh, particularly in my work with my teacher, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, uh, where we've been doing a lot of work around Dzogchen and a lot of work around, you know, various vajrayana practices, uh, that the connections all started to sort of sync up in my brain of.

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<v Speaker>I don't know if you feel this way, Scott.

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<v Speaker>I always feel like the best teachers I have are the ones that are borderline frustrated, wanting to grab us by the shoulders and shake us until we and say like, you are already enlightened.

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<v Speaker>Can you just realize that already?

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<v Speaker>You know what I mean?

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<v Speaker>And so I really, it was getting that energy, uh, in, in his cycle of teachings to all of us.

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<v Speaker>And I thought, yeah, this is it.

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<v Speaker>This is the important thing.

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<v Speaker>What, what does it mean to you when you say we're already enlightened?

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<v Speaker>When I was a kid I asked my mother what, you know, like what we were saying before.

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<v Speaker>There's these Christian origin stories I had heard and I was like, what's, what's our version as Buddhists And she said, well, there was wakefulness.

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<v Speaker>And then it second guessed itself and then there was doubt in dualism.

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<v Speaker>And I was way too young to understand that by remember it clear as day.

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<v Speaker>And you know, it's so funny because like now I understand what she's referring to, but that sense of there is wakefulness that's who we are.

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<v Speaker>But we start to doubt it.

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<v Speaker>We start to second guess ourselves.

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<v Speaker>We start to get in our head and we start to say, actually there might be something wrong with me.

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<v Speaker>Um, that's really painful for many of us.

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<v Speaker>I share a story in the book about how the word blue isn't actually in any of the ancient texts.

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<v Speaker>Like if you go back 4,500 years, you're not going to find that word blue in Hebrew.

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<v Speaker>Chinese text, Greek text, any of it.

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<v Speaker>It's actually just came into being more recently and there was this whole um, study where this professor, Jules Davidoff went to Namibia and spent time with the Himba tribe and found that they hadn't actually experienced blue in the way that we often refer to it.

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<v Speaker>And he did an experiment where he lined up 12 identical squares of paint, 11 of which were green.

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<v Speaker>One was blue.

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<v Speaker>And he said, which one is different?

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<v Speaker>And they said, I don't know what you're referring to.

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<v Speaker>And he realized that the only reason that they weren't seeing the distinction, whereas you and I might see it immediately.

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<v Speaker>Is that they hadn't been introduced to it.

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<v Speaker>And that's the whole point of this book.

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<v Speaker>It's not some sort of self-helpy —you, write a book called, You Are Good, You Are Enough, you sort of have to defend anyone wondering if it's a self-help book.

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<v Speaker>It's not.

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<v Speaker>It's uh, you know, it, it's about this fundamental aspect of who we are.

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<v Speaker>It's just me pointing at it so that we start to see blue everywhere.

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<v Speaker>Only in blue in this case is our own basic goodness.

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<v Speaker>So we start to see basic goodness in ourself and we start to see it in the people we like, the people we don't know, even the people we have a hard time with.

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<v Speaker>In the book, you share a lot of practices, and not all of them are for being on the cushion somewhere in daily life.

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<v Speaker>Can you talk about the ones that have seen the most effective, uh, for people as you've, as you've shared them?

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<v Speaker>The one that immediately came to mind is one of my favorites.

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<v Speaker>it's called the Loving Kindness photo.

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<v Speaker>One of the areas that we have a really hard time is discovering the basic goodness within the people that we have a hard time with or dislike.

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<v Speaker>For me, the most profound version of it was this woman who married someone who had a kid from a previous marriage.

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<v Speaker>The ex-wife was really not kind to her.

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<v Speaker>And so she had a very hard time and would have to, there was no avoiding this person.

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<v Speaker>They would regularly see each other in, in family situations, soccer practice, et cetera.

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<v Speaker>Every time she saw this person, she found herself like ramping up to anger.

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<v Speaker>And as we all know from, we all know as you and I know from the, um, sort of early teachings, even within, you know, the eightfold path, the four foundations of mindfulness, there's, what's the antidote to anger in the sense it's, it's love and kindness.

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<v Speaker>So the story goes that you take this little photo of that person and you put them out somewhere in the open, or if you hate that in your wallet, and then whenever you see it, you flip open your wallet, you go by your bookshelf, you pause just for a moment and you look at them and you make an aspiration that feels authentic to your experience.

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<v Speaker>May you feel happy, may you feel safe.

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<v Speaker>Even if the safe is like, may you feel safe so you don't keep bashing me or something.

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<v Speaker>But we don't go that far.

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<v Speaker>We just say, may you feel safe, whatever feels right to you.

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<v Speaker>And the story as I relayed in the book is that, you know, after a couple of weeks even having done this practice, she ran into this woman at soccer practice and she said the first instinct wasn't one of anger.

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<v Speaker>It was one of real kindness, real, real openness.

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<v Speaker>And it was disarming for her, not, not the woman that my meditation student, the, the ex-wife.

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<v Speaker>She, she was totally disarmed by the fact that this person showed up completely different, actually willing to engage, curious about them as a person.

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<v Speaker>And she, you know, and the relationship shifted.

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<v Speaker>As a result.

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<v Speaker>So lots of things like that that are somewhat practical, and I realize not everyone wants to do loving kindness for the difficult person or something like that.

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<v Speaker>There's also ways to, there's one, another one in here.

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<v Speaker>Uh, loving kindness for a friend, which I, uh, you know, credit to a book.

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<v Speaker>You know, again, I'm surrounded, I've read a thousand books this year.

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<v Speaker>Most of them are for people, two and under.

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<v Speaker>And, um, this one was Mindful Tots Loving Kindness, where you basically just bring to mind the image of a friend.

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<v Speaker>You close your eyes, you say their name silently.

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<v Speaker>You rest your mind, you relax.

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<v Speaker>You let yourself hold the image.

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<v Speaker>And if you want to make an aspiration for their wellbeing, you can, but like, it's just connecting to like this, even this being that we love.

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<v Speaker>I thought these exercises were excellent.

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<v Speaker>The one with the person you have trouble with is really radical 'cause we're encouraged to do that.

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<v Speaker>But no, we've never, never said, put a picture of them and look at it every day.

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<v Speaker>That's, that's even more difficult.

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<v Speaker>But, you know, it's definitely one of the things that most radically affects people when I'm, you know, sharing some of this wisdom, um, which is that love from a Buddhist perspective doesn't mean thinking someone's awesome.

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<v Speaker>It's just wanting them to be happy and, and then you realize if they were happy they'd, they'd probably stop annoying you and everybody else.

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<v Speaker>Yeah, and I think that's it.

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<v Speaker>And we're not like being Pollyanna in this book.

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<v Speaker>There's something practical here.

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<v Speaker>But that is, that is the most practical thing we can do because if we, this person whose photo we have or who we dislike, we may never see them.

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<v Speaker>We may not have run into them in soccer practice, but.

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<v Speaker>If we're walking around with hate in our heart or anger in our heart, it is hurting no one but ourselves.

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<v Speaker>It's like this little icebox around our heart, if you only for our own benefit to begin to work through some of the intense emotions around them, it would be helpful for us.

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<v Speaker>So how do you, how do you balance recognizing basic goodness with also wanting to become a better person and expand your generosity, patience, compassion, joy, love, you know, what's the balance between total acceptance and growth, having a, having a directionality for how you want, um, you know, your personality, your spiritual development to proceed.

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<v Speaker>Yeah.

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<v Speaker>The thing that comes up for me is I find that a lot of those qualities that we're talking about there stem from basic goodness or arise from basic goodness I can say, right?

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<v Speaker>So if I'm actually rooted in a sense of enoughness, we'll say, to be, sort of talking common CE about these things, I feel enough as I am confident in my own basic goodness.

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<v Speaker>Then I'm naturally generous.

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<v Speaker>So I think if we look at this from the perspective of I am enough, then all of those things that we want to give birth to, our kindness, our love, our inspiration, our creativity, our generosity, they naturally arise out of basic goodness.

00:16:44.802 --> 00:16:47.413
<v Speaker>So spontaneously as the situation calls for it.

00:16:47.413 --> 00:16:51.493
<v Speaker>But if we don't have any connection to it, we're always looking outside of ourselves.

00:16:51.493 --> 00:16:53.173
<v Speaker>always looking for more.

00:16:53.173 --> 00:16:57.403
<v Speaker>Again, that's, like I've been real hard against capitalism.

00:16:57.403 --> 00:16:58.753
<v Speaker>But that's sort of that perspective.

00:16:58.753 --> 00:17:01.692
<v Speaker>It is a capitalistic mindset of, I don't have enough.

00:17:01.692 --> 00:17:04.782
<v Speaker>I need more, and I'm going to keep striving until I get enough.

00:17:04.782 --> 00:17:06.888
<v Speaker>You've mentioned capitalism a few times.

00:17:06.888 --> 00:17:08.865
<v Speaker>who's your least favorite capitalist?

00:17:08.865 --> 00:17:26.699
<v Speaker>Yeah, I mean, I feel like we are living in a moment where there are some, uh, clear and easy people to villainize in terms of these wealthy billionaires who, if they even, you know, spread around a percentage of their wealth, would, you know, solve home, uh, homelessness in a day.

00:17:26.699 --> 00:17:37.019
<v Speaker>We would solve, uh, our food crisis in a day where there's so many different things that we could solve with a little bit of redistribution and, and generosity from them.

00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:58.574
<v Speaker>So I, I do find that very frustrating that, um, you know, I don't even have to name names necessarily, but I, I do believe that this sort of like billionaires who are all like friendly with one another and not encouraging each other to do anything other than horde wealth feels very horrible right now.

00:17:58.574 --> 00:18:02.651
<v Speaker>I think I also would throw our president into that, into that mix.

00:18:02.651 --> 00:18:05.371
<v Speaker>Again, I'm not trying to not name names.

00:18:05.371 --> 00:18:08.260
<v Speaker>I think I, I'm alluding to the people without trying to trigger anyone.

00:18:08.260 --> 00:18:09.157
<v Speaker>It's fine.

00:18:09.157 --> 00:18:16.178
<v Speaker>We can, so let's think about those the billionaires we might not feel good about or the president if, if that's someone you're not feeling good about.

00:18:16.178 --> 00:18:23.694
<v Speaker>The reason I ask that is What does it mean to trust someone's basic goodness when they're actively hurting you, who really don't like them and what they're doing?

00:18:23.694 --> 00:18:24.654
<v Speaker>What it limits to that view?

00:18:24.654 --> 00:18:27.684
<v Speaker>It sounds like you've got a couple triggers yourself.

00:18:27.684 --> 00:18:29.394
<v Speaker>So what do we do?

00:18:29.394 --> 00:18:33.988
<v Speaker>I vacillate around like heartbreak and frustration somewhere in that range, I'll say.

00:18:33.988 --> 00:18:38.367
<v Speaker>And, you know, I did actually, because this is, this is not uncommon, right?

00:18:38.367 --> 00:18:40.317
<v Speaker>So, okay, let's go to the extreme difficult people.

00:18:40.317 --> 00:19:01.857
<v Speaker>And this is, this is the one behind closed doors, things that I'll sort of share with everyone that we went all the way through the book and, uh, I had a chapter that had a pretty provocative title, then it went through the editor and copy editor even, I think, and I think it was like one last editor, maybe a proofreader or something goes.

00:19:01.857 --> 00:19:04.258
<v Speaker>You cannot have this chapter heading.

00:19:04.258 --> 00:19:06.357
<v Speaker>This can't be the title of your chapter.

00:19:06.357 --> 00:19:11.248
<v Speaker>And it was, and I know that you have a Jewish heritage, I have Jewish heritage as well.

00:19:11.248 --> 00:19:13.637
<v Speaker>the chapter was, what about Hitler?

00:19:13.637 --> 00:19:20.428
<v Speaker>And to be sensitive to people we did change it to what about that world threatening politician?

00:19:20.428 --> 00:19:23.127
<v Speaker>Uh, which, you know, again softens it.

00:19:23.127 --> 00:19:29.097
<v Speaker>But that what about Hitler was the question I got all the time and I still get, sometimes you talk about basic goodness.

00:19:29.097 --> 00:19:35.157
<v Speaker>I've been, you know, talking about, I've been teaching meditation for 25 years, with a focus on basic goodness for the last 12 or 14.

00:19:35.157 --> 00:19:37.228
<v Speaker>And so you get this question a lot.

00:19:37.228 --> 00:19:41.067
<v Speaker>And I would always have to say the short answer is yes, even, even Hitler.

00:19:41.067 --> 00:19:45.807
<v Speaker>But I'm not saying he's a good person and I was saying he's worth someone admiring, I am saying the opposite.

00:19:45.807 --> 00:19:55.347
<v Speaker>he was someone who is so distanced from his basic goodness that he was able to convince himself to do horrible things and that they were right when clearly they were not.

00:19:55.347 --> 00:20:04.617
<v Speaker>So I think that's the interesting thing, which is like it's, these are people who are trying to make themselves happy and doing incredibly harmful things.

00:20:04.617 --> 00:20:07.228
<v Speaker>They're incredibly confused about their basic state.

00:20:07.228 --> 00:20:09.867
<v Speaker>They're distanced from that semblance of basic goodness.

00:20:09.867 --> 00:20:12.807
<v Speaker>And then the, the consequences are catastrophic.

00:20:12.807 --> 00:20:15.627
<v Speaker>So how do I work with that?

00:20:15.627 --> 00:20:28.698
<v Speaker>I think to look at them long enough to seek to understand them, and again, not to forgive, but to understand their humanity going to be helpful for us and for everyone around us.

00:20:28.698 --> 00:20:36.518
<v Speaker>the idea that everyone, absolutely, everyone possesses basic goodness it is really hard to get there for people like that.

00:20:36.518 --> 00:20:42.248
<v Speaker>But when we label someone a villain and we start to build a case against them, it doesn't serve anyone.

00:20:42.248 --> 00:20:43.508
<v Speaker>It just hurts us.

00:20:43.508 --> 00:20:47.576
<v Speaker>when I was traveling, I think it was for my second book, uh, walk Like a Buddha.

00:20:47.576 --> 00:20:50.655
<v Speaker>I was in one of the Carolinas, I wanna say North Carolina.

00:20:50.655 --> 00:20:52.395
<v Speaker>And I, it was sort of a whirlwind.

00:20:52.395 --> 00:20:54.586
<v Speaker>I gave this talk and this question came up literally.

00:20:54.586 --> 00:20:55.365
<v Speaker>What about Hitler?

00:20:55.365 --> 00:20:58.365
<v Speaker>Uh, I apologize to anyone who's being triggered by that.

00:20:58.365 --> 00:21:03.695
<v Speaker>But that was the question that was asked, and I gave this sort of response.

00:21:03.695 --> 00:21:15.875
<v Speaker>And I, I was talking with someone afterwards and she shared this story with me about, she married a man who had kids from previous marriage.

00:21:15.875 --> 00:21:32.016
<v Speaker>She had kids from previous marriage, a blended family, uh, one of her stepsons fell in with a bad crowd, was doing a lot of drugs, and did something that was frankly unforgivable, uh, murdered someone.

00:21:32.016 --> 00:21:33.246
<v Speaker>But  I'm not gonna get into the details.

00:21:33.246 --> 00:21:36.996
<v Speaker>It's really gruesome and horrible and, um, went to jail.

00:21:36.996 --> 00:21:48.846
<v Speaker>And I can only imagine what it might be like as a parent to have your kid do something like that and just was like I, she said I was all in on basic goodness until this happened.

00:21:48.846 --> 00:21:50.256
<v Speaker>And then I said, oh, that's not possible.

00:21:50.256 --> 00:21:53.256
<v Speaker>that's not within this person.

00:21:53.256 --> 00:22:02.405
<v Speaker>And he was very rough and sort of standoffish with her, she kept showing up from a loving perspective as a parent can.

00:22:02.405 --> 00:22:07.955
<v Speaker>And at one point he asked about the family dog and she noticed a change in him at that point.

00:22:07.955 --> 00:22:09.756
<v Speaker>And they talked about the family dog that time.

00:22:09.756 --> 00:22:14.465
<v Speaker>And then a month later he asked for art supplies, 'cause he wanted to actually go back to doing some art.

00:22:14.465 --> 00:22:23.465
<v Speaker>She noticed that when he was not on the drugs, when he was not hanging out with these people, he started to return to the person she knew.

00:22:23.465 --> 00:22:33.215
<v Speaker>And she fell back into an understanding of basic goodness that even this person who had done such a horrible thing, she realized was basically good and could be redeemed.

00:22:33.215 --> 00:22:44.961
<v Speaker>So I often think of that story because it really blew my mind hearing that from the perspective of a parent, uh, going so far as to say this isn't real and then coming back from that perspective.

00:22:44.961 --> 00:22:46.820
<v Speaker>So that gives me hope for all of us.

00:22:46.820 --> 00:22:47.366
<v Speaker>Yeah.

00:22:47.366 --> 00:22:55.832
<v Speaker>You know, earlier you said the opposite of anger is love, but you know, Tara Brach said the opposite of anger is curiosity.

00:22:55.832 --> 00:22:57.362
<v Speaker>I love that.

00:22:57.362 --> 00:23:02.567
<v Speaker>You know, like if you're really curious, like why did, 'cause often we're like, why me?

00:23:02.567 --> 00:23:02.807
<v Speaker>Why?

00:23:02.807 --> 00:23:07.636
<v Speaker>Well, actually that is the right question actually, is like, why did this happen?

00:23:07.636 --> 00:23:11.267
<v Speaker>And then you see, oh, actually there is a reason.

00:23:11.267 --> 00:23:12.863
<v Speaker>You know, I have, I have a question for you.

00:23:12.863 --> 00:23:25.442
<v Speaker>I mean, I hope this isn't too challenging, but, um, you write very beautifully about how basic goodness means that even when people act from confusion, , or cause harm that doesn't negate their underlying goodness.

00:23:25.442 --> 00:23:29.542
<v Speaker>So I wanna ask you, what about Chögyam Trungpa?

00:23:29.542 --> 00:23:39.512
<v Speaker>You know, your teacher, because his life has included situations in which, you know, he had heavy alcohol use and sexual relationships with his students.

00:23:39.512 --> 00:23:53.490
<v Speaker>How do you apply your understanding of basic goodness to Chögyam Trungpa himself, and modulate the power of his, the, the clear power of his teachings and the impact he, the good he had in the world with some harm that he's done as well.

00:23:53.490 --> 00:23:54.424
<v Speaker>Yeah.

00:23:54.424 --> 00:23:57.029
<v Speaker>Um, I have lots of things to say about that.

00:23:57.029 --> 00:24:27.008
<v Speaker>I, I gonna start with a bit of a clarification, which is not to distance myself in any way, so I was born and raised in that tradition, uh, which was Vajradhatu and then became Shambala and then I myself, um, split off, I wanna say what 2017, 18, uh, when I started studying with Tsoknyi Rinpoche and also, you know, basically started teaching and studying with like the lineage of Thich Nhat Hanh to some degree.

00:24:27.008 --> 00:24:34.188
<v Speaker>So, you know, I sort of started saying, what if I look beyond the thing I was raised in and really fell in love with a lot of different teachings.

00:24:34.188 --> 00:24:36.028
<v Speaker>But yeah, I mean, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche.

00:24:36.028 --> 00:24:38.932
<v Speaker>An incredibly complicated person.

00:24:38.932 --> 00:24:45.413
<v Speaker>I often found when people would ask me about him, I'd be like, well, talk to someone who was there because I, I wasn't there.

00:24:45.413 --> 00:24:50.853
<v Speaker>I don't have a lot of stories of experiencing him in that same way, uh, in person.

00:24:50.853 --> 00:24:55.982
<v Speaker>I am someone who has experienced that, as you said, the power of the teachings that he has left us.

00:24:55.982 --> 00:24:58.623
<v Speaker>And I think the written work in particular is really powerful.

00:24:58.623 --> 00:25:03.153
<v Speaker>And, um, I'm inspired by a lot of the good that he did in the world.

00:25:03.153 --> 00:25:19.086
<v Speaker>The way I think about it, this is me, is that when I'm teaching, I'm only, you know, a little bit up the mountain and I can look over my shoulder, who are the people who are at the base of the mountain and say, Hey, I, I've done this for, you know, a while.

00:25:19.086 --> 00:25:20.286
<v Speaker>I've taught this for 25 years.

00:25:20.286 --> 00:25:26.195
<v Speaker>I can get you basically up to where I am, know, let me, let me show you how to navigate going up this part of the mountain.

00:25:26.195 --> 00:25:26.855
<v Speaker>That's all I can do.

00:25:26.855 --> 00:25:32.405
<v Speaker>And then I study with people who are further up the mountain than me and they study with people who are further up the mountain than them.

00:25:32.405 --> 00:25:38.165
<v Speaker>And it goes on like that so that we're sort of all helping each other up the mountain to the best of our ability.

00:25:38.165 --> 00:25:44.375
<v Speaker>So I don't know where Chaun Trump Perche was on that mountain, frankly, I don't know.

00:25:44.375 --> 00:25:49.266
<v Speaker>I know that he was high up enough that I could, uh, learn a lot of things from him.

00:25:49.266 --> 00:25:52.056
<v Speaker>And that, again, that legacy is really powerful.

00:25:52.056 --> 00:25:54.846
<v Speaker>And I also know that there are people who feel harmed.

00:25:54.846 --> 00:26:04.161
<v Speaker>Um, I know that there are, lots of really outlandish stories and sometimes those stories get swept under the rug as crazy wisdom.

00:26:04.161 --> 00:26:05.451
<v Speaker>Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.

00:26:05.451 --> 00:26:06.111
<v Speaker>I don't know.

00:26:06.111 --> 00:26:17.171
<v Speaker>But I think particularly when people say, oh, I was harmed, we have to listen to that and acknowledge it. I think this is also like when we look at all of our relationships with teachers, we can acknowledge that they're humans.

00:26:17.171 --> 00:26:21.681
<v Speaker>I'm the first one to admit that I'm not hundred percent awake.

00:26:21.681 --> 00:26:23.480
<v Speaker>I'm a very human, human.

00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:25.070
<v Speaker>I'm only this far up the mountain.

00:26:25.070 --> 00:26:25.431
<v Speaker>Right.

00:26:25.431 --> 00:26:33.471
<v Speaker>I think when we are studying with people, we always wanna just sort of a knowledge like, okay, maybe I don't put them on an incredible pedestal and say they're my savior.

00:26:33.471 --> 00:26:37.611
<v Speaker>There's, we can say there's someone I can learn from because they're further up than I am.

00:26:37.611 --> 00:26:39.830
<v Speaker>And that's just my relationship to these things.

00:26:39.830 --> 00:26:47.030
<v Speaker>And again, it's not to excuse or negate any harm that gets caused by any of these beings, but I think it's, it's important that we sort of hold both.

00:26:47.030 --> 00:26:47.480
<v Speaker>Okay.

00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:48.681
<v Speaker>There's incredible power.

00:26:48.681 --> 00:26:58.641
<v Speaker>And if there's mistakes along the way, people learn from them, this, I can't speak to his experience, I can only speak to mine when I have felt distance from my, let me bring it back to that.

00:26:58.641 --> 00:27:04.851
<v Speaker>When I feel have felt distance from my basic goodness, I have lost myself.

00:27:04.851 --> 00:27:15.770
<v Speaker>You know, there's this period of time, 2012 to 2013, where it was of like wave upon wave of samsara came crashing down on me like a short period of time.

00:27:15.770 --> 00:27:22.820
<v Speaker>I, um, I lost my job, so I had no stable employment.

00:27:22.820 --> 00:27:28.730
<v Speaker>And then my fiance, so when I was planning to marry, woke up one day and said, I'm not doing this.

00:27:28.730 --> 00:27:29.631
<v Speaker>I'm moving to Europe.

00:27:29.631 --> 00:27:39.290
<v Speaker>And then my best friend passed away and then a number of months later, my father passed away and I was wracked with grief.

00:27:39.290 --> 00:27:43.550
<v Speaker>I was, you know, borderline suicidal.

00:27:43.550 --> 00:27:53.901
<v Speaker>Uh, I wasn't practicing or if I was practicing, it was really, you know, sort of scattered and, and not like focused in the way that it would be otherwise.

00:27:53.901 --> 00:27:54.980
<v Speaker>It was just so much grief.

00:27:54.980 --> 00:27:56.601
<v Speaker>I wasn't in therapy.

00:27:56.601 --> 00:27:58.401
<v Speaker>I didn't have a lot of support at the time.

00:27:58.401 --> 00:27:59.361
<v Speaker>I was in my late twenties.

00:27:59.361 --> 00:28:04.131
<v Speaker>And I, um, yeah, I spiraled and I drank too much.

00:28:04.131 --> 00:28:05.361
<v Speaker>I caused self harm.

00:28:05.361 --> 00:28:11.211
<v Speaker>I'm sure there are other people out there who probably feel harmed by me during that time.

00:28:11.211 --> 00:28:14.810
<v Speaker>And what happens then when we do that?

00:28:14.810 --> 00:28:19.070
<v Speaker>For me, I had good friends that sort of pulled me out of the gutter quite literally.

00:28:19.070 --> 00:28:23.121
<v Speaker>I was like not leaving Washington Square Park as the rats were coming in for the dark.

00:28:23.121 --> 00:28:31.310
<v Speaker>And I remember very clearly from yanking me up and taking me to a restaurant saying, we're getting you a good therapist, got me back on the cushion within two weeks.

00:28:31.310 --> 00:28:34.671
<v Speaker>And that got me going, you know, sort of processing all this in a more healthy way.

00:28:34.671 --> 00:28:40.550
<v Speaker>And that, you know, made sure, made me drink less and made me, you know, actually start to get myself back to who I was.

00:28:40.550 --> 00:28:45.351
<v Speaker>But, um, you know, it's a very long-winded way of saying what do we do with that?

00:28:45.351 --> 00:28:48.891
<v Speaker>Well, we acknowledge, I've made mistakes.

00:28:48.891 --> 00:28:49.881
<v Speaker>Can I learn from them?

00:28:49.881 --> 00:28:51.411
<v Speaker>I grow from them?

00:28:51.411 --> 00:28:58.070
<v Speaker>And I'm a very big advocate that when we make mistakes as part of the spiritual path, we either hear the dharma really perfectly the first time.

00:28:58.070 --> 00:29:00.320
<v Speaker>And we are like, cool, I'm good now.

00:29:00.320 --> 00:29:03.770
<v Speaker>Or we do, we hear that and then we do something at odds with it.

00:29:03.770 --> 00:29:05.000
<v Speaker>We say, I messed up.

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:05.780
<v Speaker>I don't wanna do that again.

00:29:05.780 --> 00:29:06.740
<v Speaker>And we don't do it again.

00:29:06.740 --> 00:29:09.621
<v Speaker>And I, I'm just a firm believer in that.

00:29:09.621 --> 00:29:22.310
<v Speaker>So when we talk about human beings, which all of these teachers are, um, I, I'm more willing, when I look at the ways that I have felt distance from my basic goodness at times and the way that I acted, I'm more willing to give them a benefit of the doubt.

00:29:22.310 --> 00:29:27.080
<v Speaker>But, um, you know, again, it's, the question is do we learn, do we try to heal?

00:29:27.080 --> 00:29:29.721
<v Speaker>Do we try to work with others to heal, which is something I've always done.

00:29:29.721 --> 00:29:42.411
<v Speaker>If that's the case, I'm, I'm, I'm really, I look quite fondly upon some of these teachers because I can't expect them all to be completely enlightened and do enlightened things all the time.

00:29:42.411 --> 00:29:47.885
<v Speaker>It's, um, did the concept of basic goodness help you at that time when you were in the gutter?

00:29:47.885 --> 00:29:49.205
<v Speaker>Literally in the gutter?

00:29:49.205 --> 00:29:51.050
<v Speaker>Uh, yes and no.

00:29:51.050 --> 00:29:53.631
<v Speaker>Like I could simultaneously say I'm basically good.

00:29:53.631 --> 00:29:57.411
<v Speaker>it almost felt like, okay, I, I had already written the Buddha walks into a bar.

00:29:57.411 --> 00:29:58.641
<v Speaker>It was out, it was doing well.

00:29:58.641 --> 00:29:59.451
<v Speaker>It was my first book.

00:29:59.451 --> 00:30:02.090
<v Speaker>And I said, okay, maybe that's the legacy I just end it here.

00:30:02.090 --> 00:30:04.611
<v Speaker>You know, maybe I've done the good thing.

00:30:04.611 --> 00:30:05.810
<v Speaker>I'm basically good.

00:30:05.810 --> 00:30:08.840
<v Speaker>I've done something that felt like it was helpful and now I call it.

00:30:08.840 --> 00:30:12.020
<v Speaker>And, uh, so, you know, yes and no.

00:30:12.020 --> 00:30:17.121
<v Speaker>I, I, at that time, I think I was, um, you know, not very in tune with basic goodness.

00:30:17.121 --> 00:30:21.621
<v Speaker>I think I could acknowledge it here and there, but it might felt more theoretical than experiential at that point.

00:30:21.621 --> 00:30:23.709
<v Speaker>But what was it that helped you then?

00:30:23.709 --> 00:30:28.808
<v Speaker>So it didn't sound like basic goodness was working then what, what worked for you, uh, to bring you back?

00:30:28.808 --> 00:30:32.138
<v Speaker>It sounds like your friends were a big part of it, your relationships.

00:30:32.138 --> 00:30:35.604
<v Speaker>Yeah, and I think that is another part of it, uh, which is community.

00:30:35.604 --> 00:30:38.124
<v Speaker>I think community is really powerful right now.

00:30:38.124 --> 00:30:42.173
<v Speaker>And, um, a lot of it has gotten shaken since the pandemic.

00:30:42.173 --> 00:30:45.564
<v Speaker>I think we got really used to isolating more and more during that time.

00:30:45.564 --> 00:30:50.874
<v Speaker>And, uh, even, you know, several years later we're, we're still finding our ways in back to each other's company.

00:30:50.874 --> 00:31:02.634
<v Speaker>But, uh, being in community, being in therapy, and again, it was just having enough of, uh, stable support and encouragement that I felt like I could get back to the cushion in real way.

00:31:02.634 --> 00:31:12.653
<v Speaker>And for me, that means like hours of sitting as opposed to like 10 minutes here and there, which is not to denigrate anyone's 10 minute practice, but for me, I needed to do a lot of deep practice again in order to come back.

00:31:12.653 --> 00:31:15.624
<v Speaker>there is no substituting.

00:31:15.624 --> 00:31:21.489
<v Speaker>Theory for practice, in my opinion, when it comes to basic goodness how were you meditating at that time?

00:31:21.489 --> 00:31:23.679
<v Speaker>Like what were the most effective techniques?

00:31:23.679 --> 00:31:25.689
<v Speaker>Yeah, that's a good question.

00:31:25.689 --> 00:31:37.598
<v Speaker>I was doing, um, a lot of Sadhana practice, but I think in order for me to actually do any Sadhana practice, I was just really doubling and tripling down on basic shamatha mindfulness of the breath practice.

00:31:37.598 --> 00:31:42.635
<v Speaker>for me most basic mindfulness of the breath practice is a basic goodness practice.

00:31:42.635 --> 00:31:48.605
<v Speaker>It is a sense of like, when we recognize the thing, when we point at the color blue, then we can see blue.

00:31:48.605 --> 00:31:52.986
<v Speaker>And if we do that in our, in our shamatha practice, then we can really see the basic goodness for what it is.

00:31:52.986 --> 00:32:02.645
<v Speaker>So even just getting back to, you know, basics, so to speak know, yes, I was doing some vajrayana stuff, but a lot of it was really counting the breath in, in shamatha.

00:32:02.645 --> 00:32:04.786
<v Speaker>You mentioned Sadhana practice.

00:32:04.786 --> 00:32:06.509
<v Speaker>Most people won't recognize that word.

00:32:06.509 --> 00:32:11.878
<v Speaker>Those are vajrayana or tantric Buddhist practices where you imagine your best self.

00:32:11.878 --> 00:32:15.628
<v Speaker>You know, what would I be doing if I were enlightened right now?

00:32:15.628 --> 00:32:19.499
<v Speaker>Um, that is a fundamental basic goodness practice, right?

00:32:19.499 --> 00:32:22.169
<v Speaker>Like, what if I were my best self right now?

00:32:22.169 --> 00:32:23.338
<v Speaker>How would I feel?

00:32:23.338 --> 00:32:23.878
<v Speaker>How would I act?

00:32:23.878 --> 00:32:26.489
<v Speaker>So were those practices effective for you at the time?

00:32:26.489 --> 00:32:34.288
<v Speaker>Do you, and do you feel that connection between the concept of basic goodness you write about and those, um, imaginative practices?

00:32:34.288 --> 00:32:39.594
<v Speaker>Yeah, I, I think Sadhana practice is very helpful in that regard.

00:32:39.594 --> 00:32:48.923
<v Speaker>You know, first thing in the morning, these days before I open my eyes, I, I just flash, um, a Longchenpa guru yoga practice.

00:32:48.923 --> 00:33:01.913
<v Speaker>So for people at home, that means just visualizing the historic figure, Longchenpa, who was a great enlightened being, and just remembering the presence of the lineage that he embodies, the wakeful beings that have come before.

00:33:01.913 --> 00:33:11.693
<v Speaker>that is like this moment of, I don't even wanna say inspiration, but like, recognition of like, oh, my nature is not different than his nature is not different than the nature of my teacher embodied.

00:33:11.693 --> 00:33:13.943
<v Speaker>And this is not different than the Buddha himself.

00:33:13.943 --> 00:33:15.144
<v Speaker>It's all one thing.

00:33:15.144 --> 00:33:18.834
<v Speaker>And to start my day from that perspective is actually powerful.

00:33:18.834 --> 00:33:25.374
<v Speaker>You used a term in your book that I wasn't familiar with, drala, which is a very beautiful idea.

00:33:25.374 --> 00:33:33.473
<v Speaker>I wonder if you could share a little bit about, um, what that is and, and how we can feel it, how we can be in tune with that, and then how it relates to basic goodness.

00:33:33.473 --> 00:33:36.084
<v Speaker>Yeah, so this is a Tibetan Buddhist thing.

00:33:36.084 --> 00:33:39.933
<v Speaker>The term drala is often translated as energy above aggression.

00:33:39.933 --> 00:33:43.403
<v Speaker>So this is energy that exists in our environment.

00:33:43.403 --> 00:33:48.273
<v Speaker>It's present to us when we're really attuned to the environment, to ourselves.

00:33:48.273 --> 00:33:59.661
<v Speaker>The idea of energy above aggression, it means that in order to connect with this sort of awake energy, we have to let go of our, whatever stories we're telling ourselves, our irritation, our resentment or negativity.

00:33:59.661 --> 00:34:04.461
<v Speaker>And I share this story in the book about, um, this painter, John Morrow.

00:34:04.461 --> 00:34:12.791
<v Speaker>So I was attending a event that was hosted in his studio, and he had this beautiful landscape that he had done, a coastal scene of Mallorca.

00:34:12.791 --> 00:34:17.871
<v Speaker>And I asked him very innocuously, I was like, Hey, uh, what, what made you do that one?

00:34:17.871 --> 00:34:18.380
<v Speaker>And he said.

00:34:18.380 --> 00:34:20.391
<v Speaker>Funny you pointed that one.

00:34:20.391 --> 00:34:21.920
<v Speaker>That was the happiest days of my life.

00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:34.190
<v Speaker>And he shared this story about how he began with this really frustrating situation where he had a friend with him, another artist, and he was driving him around saying, well, what if we paint here?

00:34:34.190 --> 00:34:35.510
<v Speaker>And the friend said, no, I hate this.

00:34:35.510 --> 00:34:36.050
<v Speaker>I don't want this.

00:34:36.050 --> 00:34:38.721
<v Speaker>I want a particular type of spot with this particular type of thing.

00:34:38.721 --> 00:34:41.391
<v Speaker>So they drove elsewhere and he goes, how about this one, this size?

00:34:41.391 --> 00:34:42.800
<v Speaker>He goes, no, no, I want something else.

00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:50.960
<v Speaker>They kept driving and driving hours later, he's really annoyed at his friend, settle into this cove and it's the cove in the painting.

00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:54.081
<v Speaker>And he says, at that point, I had to make a choice.

00:34:54.081 --> 00:34:59.121
<v Speaker>I could stay with my anger or I could let it go and appreciate the moment around me.

00:34:59.121 --> 00:35:00.771
<v Speaker>I remember that so clearly.

00:35:00.771 --> 00:35:05.931
<v Speaker>And he made that choice and he said, I'm going to spend the day painting, enjoying time with my friends.

00:35:05.931 --> 00:35:07.280
<v Speaker>Other friends came and met them.

00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.190
<v Speaker>They ate delicious food, they relaxed together, they went swimming.

00:35:10.190 --> 00:35:14.960
<v Speaker>And he said the only reason it was one of the happiest days of his life is 'cause he released the aggression.

00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.766
<v Speaker>And allowed himself to connect to the energy of that moment.

00:35:17.766 --> 00:35:23.849
<v Speaker>So it's easy for me to tell that story and people say, so drala is nature you go to nature and there's energy.

00:35:23.849 --> 00:35:30.358
<v Speaker>And I think that it's maybe easier to connect to this energy in nature.

00:35:30.358 --> 00:35:40.679
<v Speaker>Like if you, when I go to my backyard, we sort of go down this little hill and then it opens up and there's this clearing and you look down and there's this stream and it sort of stops the mind.

00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:44.998
<v Speaker>That's a moment of drala, you know, just, there's something electric to that feeling.

00:35:44.998 --> 00:35:48.509
<v Speaker>It's not just about natural settings though.

00:35:48.509 --> 00:35:58.409
<v Speaker>When I walk into the Metropolitan Museum of Art, I feel that way, this large atrium and my mind just sort of goes blank in regard to the sheer profundity of it all.

00:35:58.409 --> 00:36:00.791
<v Speaker>You might get it just putting on your favorite song.

00:36:00.791 --> 00:36:02.681
<v Speaker>Absolutely, perfect.

00:36:02.681 --> 00:36:05.905
<v Speaker>You know, it's, uh, it's all that life is so beautiful.

00:36:05.905 --> 00:36:12.626
<v Speaker>You know, that's, so many of my teachers are just constantly, they're like, look, look everything, you know, and it's not, it's the meal on your plate.

00:36:12.626 --> 00:36:16.556
<v Speaker>Like, it's extraordinary how that got there and that you get to enjoy it.

00:36:16.556 --> 00:36:23.463
<v Speaker>I wanna talk a little, you talk about a couple things that bear on, um, some modern day struggles, like the struggles of activists.

00:36:23.463 --> 00:36:28.443
<v Speaker>You talk about this famous story, famous Buddhist story about the parrot and the forest fire.

00:36:28.443 --> 00:36:35.413
<v Speaker>I wonder if you could tell that story in, the way that you tell it, how it relates to the struggle of modern activists.

00:36:35.413 --> 00:36:41.329
<v Speaker>So it's an old Jataka tale, which means that it's the story of a life of the Buddha before he was the Buddha.

00:36:41.329 --> 00:36:51.320
<v Speaker>The story goes that in this forest lived a parrot and the forest caught fire and started to spread rapidly.

00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:54.409
<v Speaker>So the, the parrot having wings was like, I'm gonna get outta here.

00:36:54.409 --> 00:37:01.460
<v Speaker>But then she heard the cries of all of the other animals in the forest and overcome by compassion.

00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:02.480
<v Speaker>She said, I need to do something.

00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:05.210
<v Speaker>So she swoops into this nearby river.

00:37:05.210 --> 00:37:17.460
<v Speaker>She's soaking her feathers in the water, flying back, shaking the droplets off over the flames, and she's going back and forth, back and forth trying to extinguish this fire with just drops at a time getting burned herself.

00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:19.199
<v Speaker>She's struggling to save everyone.

00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:23.204
<v Speaker>In Buddhism there's often referred to different realms, including what's called a God realm.

00:37:23.204 --> 00:37:26.623
<v Speaker>You could just think of divine beings sort of watching this parrot.

00:37:26.623 --> 00:37:31.123
<v Speaker>And they are looking at this and they're saying, what is this bird doing?

00:37:31.123 --> 00:37:37.153
<v Speaker>And then Indra the king of the, uh, particular gods there.

00:37:37.153 --> 00:37:39.224
<v Speaker>He says, I wanna check this out.

00:37:39.224 --> 00:37:41.954
<v Speaker>So he transforms into a mighty eagle and flies down to meet him.

00:37:41.954 --> 00:37:45.253
<v Speaker>And he turns to the parrot saying, what are you doing?

00:37:45.253 --> 00:37:46.784
<v Speaker>You're not making much of a difference.

00:37:46.784 --> 00:37:47.773
<v Speaker>You're about to get burned alive.

00:37:47.773 --> 00:37:48.284
<v Speaker>Get outta here.

00:37:48.284 --> 00:37:55.793
<v Speaker>The parrot completely undeterred goes, you are a much bigger bird than I am.

00:37:55.793 --> 00:37:57.523
<v Speaker>I don't need your advice.

00:37:57.523 --> 00:37:58.454
<v Speaker>I need your help.

00:37:58.454 --> 00:38:12.494
<v Speaker>And it's said that Indra was so moved by the courage and the conviction of the parrot that he began to cry and his divine tears, which were really quite powerful, fell onto the forest and extinguished the fire.

00:38:12.494 --> 00:38:22.003
<v Speaker>And some of the tears fell in the parrot herself, and she, it healed the burns and made the feathers grow back in colorful hues, which is why we have these brightly colored parrots.

00:38:22.003 --> 00:38:29.773
<v Speaker>So the idea here is that the parrot's courage and compassion didn't only save the forest, but she became more beautiful as a result.

00:38:29.773 --> 00:38:41.414
<v Speaker>When I first heard this, I was really moved because I think when we look at the news of the day, we feel paralyzed by all the suffering we see.

00:38:41.414 --> 00:38:42.733
<v Speaker>I certainly feel that way.

00:38:42.733 --> 00:38:44.353
<v Speaker>Again, I'll just keep speaking personally.

00:38:44.353 --> 00:38:48.523
<v Speaker>Then we say, well, what, what small actions am I doing?

00:38:48.523 --> 00:38:50.833
<v Speaker>Like what I'm doing isn't gonna make a real difference?

00:38:50.833 --> 00:38:52.333
<v Speaker>You know, we compost in our house.

00:38:52.333 --> 00:38:54.373
<v Speaker>is that really helping climate change?

00:38:54.373 --> 00:39:00.313
<v Speaker>But I have to sort of understand that is one of many small activities that adds up.

00:39:00.313 --> 00:39:08.414
<v Speaker>Like, you know, I may not be able to single handedly, you know, stop the, the war in Iran.

00:39:08.414 --> 00:39:15.014
<v Speaker>How can I make a dent in systemic injustice from my small corner of the world is something that I regularly contemplate.

00:39:15.014 --> 00:39:30.014
<v Speaker>So instead of getting like, curling up and, and feeling burned by the inability to do something tangible, the parrot was like, Hey, I'm going to overcome my hesitation and just try to do something to help even if I end up hurt as a result.

00:39:30.014 --> 00:39:38.534
<v Speaker>And the parrot didn't just save her friends, she vowed to save all the animals in the forest, which I imagine included those that she didn't like.

00:39:38.534 --> 00:39:39.733
<v Speaker>She didn't know everyone.

00:39:39.733 --> 00:39:41.773
<v Speaker>the compassion was very vast.

00:39:41.773 --> 00:39:43.063
<v Speaker>And I think that there's a lesson there.

00:39:43.063 --> 00:39:58.378
<v Speaker>But then there's also the lesson, the fact that the parrot didn't do it herself is the fact that the parrot did small acts and then continued to work with others, as we said a little while ago, in community actually create a different change.

00:39:58.378 --> 00:40:06.389
<v Speaker>I, I write in the book that this is sort of like tweeting something important than it gets retweeted by many celebrities with big platforms and gets augmented.

00:40:06.389 --> 00:40:12.688
<v Speaker>We've got a lot of ways to talk about how we can help change the world, but it is, you know, pretty rare for us to do it.

00:40:12.688 --> 00:40:26.159
<v Speaker>I, I think, you know, returning to the story, the idea is that it's not, um, instead of saying like, go save yourself, the parrot says, actually, don't need your advice.

00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:26.849
<v Speaker>I need your help.

00:40:26.849 --> 00:40:29.398
<v Speaker>'Cause we live in a world filled with opinions.

00:40:29.398 --> 00:40:37.259
<v Speaker>We live in a, a world filled with advice and experts and fads, and when things are going wrong in the world, I don't need another hot take.

00:40:37.259 --> 00:40:37.648
<v Speaker>I don't.

00:40:37.648 --> 00:40:41.143
<v Speaker>I don't, I need people to roll up their sleeves and find their own way of helping.

00:40:41.143 --> 00:40:47.472
<v Speaker>the idea is that, you know, when we actually say that sometimes people help, sometimes they roll up their sleeves.

00:40:47.472 --> 00:40:53.262
<v Speaker>If we do this by our own example in our own small corner of the world, it could inspire other people to do the same.

00:40:53.262 --> 00:40:56.231
<v Speaker>that's sort of like throwing a small stone in a pool of water.

00:40:56.231 --> 00:40:57.672
<v Speaker>We don't always know where the ripples will go.

00:40:57.672 --> 00:40:59.969
<v Speaker>Yeah, that's very wise.

00:40:59.969 --> 00:41:02.579
<v Speaker>It's, um, a lot of things come up for me.

00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:08.550
<v Speaker>One of my favorite quotes is the person who says it is impossible, should not interrupt the person doing it.

00:41:08.550 --> 00:41:11.144
<v Speaker>That's lovely.

00:41:11.144 --> 00:41:11.510
<v Speaker>Yeah.

00:41:11.510 --> 00:41:12.652
<v Speaker>it's very wise.

00:41:12.652 --> 00:41:15.773
<v Speaker>It's, I just like this connection to, to activism.

00:41:15.773 --> 00:41:17.182
<v Speaker>I also patent, I think, right?

00:41:17.182 --> 00:41:19.552
<v Speaker>Who said, um, lead, follow or get outta the way.

00:41:19.552 --> 00:41:22.463
<v Speaker>You know, it's like, do something, do something.

00:41:22.463 --> 00:41:25.012
<v Speaker>Or at least don't impede the people doing it.

00:41:25.012 --> 00:41:27.480
<v Speaker>You do give some even more specific advice too, right?

00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:41.039
<v Speaker>You one of your, I had a quote from you here, uh, that, well, I'll just paraphrase it that you know, shining a light on your contributions is really important and that sometimes people are shy to talk about the good things they do.

00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:54.956
<v Speaker>I guess somehow people aren't that shy about, criticizing themselves and others.  Can you talk a little bit about, that encouragement in your book and,  how people can bask in the good that they do, however small.

00:41:54.956 --> 00:41:57.081
<v Speaker>Why is it important to talk about the good we do in the world?

00:41:57.081 --> 00:42:01.677
<v Speaker>So I, I do think it's not just, oh, you know, when I compost, I'm saving the world.

00:42:01.677 --> 00:42:04.646
<v Speaker>It's also how I hold my mind and it's how I talk to others.

00:42:04.646 --> 00:42:11.726
<v Speaker>I think they're all connected, that when I am actively out here trying to do things, I think are helpful.

00:42:11.726 --> 00:42:14.336
<v Speaker>When I meet up with people and I say, what have you been up to lately?

00:42:14.336 --> 00:42:17.726
<v Speaker>I might talk about those things instead of all the things that are going wrong in the news.

00:42:17.726 --> 00:42:22.992
<v Speaker>It's just sort of a choice at that point because it's all synced up.

00:42:22.992 --> 00:42:28.211
<v Speaker>So however we hold the minds can affect the speech and the, and the body and the activities and all of the above.

00:42:28.211 --> 00:42:36.851
<v Speaker>So I do think that it is important for us to talk about the good we're trying to create in the world and to encourage one another, but it comes naturally.

00:42:36.851 --> 00:42:42.041
<v Speaker>The more we lean into it and holding our mind in a certain way and engaging in the activities that we do think will actually help.

00:42:42.041 --> 00:42:44.490
<v Speaker>It's just understanding the mind, right?

00:42:44.490 --> 00:42:51.541
<v Speaker>I mean, that's the essence of Buddhism is that everything, every single thing you think, say or do has an impact.

00:42:51.541 --> 00:42:54.481
<v Speaker>A very often a very big impact.

00:42:54.481 --> 00:43:03.570
<v Speaker>So to think about that, well, I like, I really like your message a lot, you know, and, and it's original the way you put it together with basic goodness.

00:43:03.570 --> 00:43:09.331
<v Speaker>Um, and if we have to be thinking something right all the time, we need to be thinking something.

00:43:09.331 --> 00:43:10.860
<v Speaker>And often we're thinking, I'm annoyed.

00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:12.181
<v Speaker>I don't like this guy.

00:43:12.181 --> 00:43:19.561
<v Speaker>So if I'm thinking, Hmm, I'm fundamentally good all day long, what effect does that have on your mind, your body, your actions?

00:43:19.561 --> 00:43:21.601
<v Speaker>Well, your whole book's about that.

00:43:21.601 --> 00:43:26.701
<v Speaker>So I encourage people to read it, and I really appreciate you coming here to talk to us about it.

00:43:26.701 --> 00:43:30.240
<v Speaker>Um, in the next episode, we're gonna have you lead a meditation.

00:43:30.240 --> 00:43:37.351
<v Speaker>And I wonder if you could just talk about that meditation, uh, that you're planning to lead and people can hear it next week.

00:43:37.351 --> 00:43:45.630
<v Speaker>Yeah, based on our conversation today, I think what we could focus on is a real basic, basic goodness meditation.

00:43:45.630 --> 00:43:50.431
<v Speaker>And again, it's not otherworldly transcendental experience.

00:43:50.431 --> 00:43:52.380
<v Speaker>It's an experience of noticing what's already here.

00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:54.990
<v Speaker>What's already happening right under our nose.

00:43:54.990 --> 00:43:59.581
<v Speaker>So actually I'm going to innovate a little bit beyond what I initially thought we were gonna do.

00:43:59.581 --> 00:44:06.121
<v Speaker>We'll do a little bit of the mindfulness meditation and then we're gonna move into, an emotions practice that I find very helpful.

00:44:06.121 --> 00:44:13.110
<v Speaker>It's a bit of a yes and practice, uh, for people who are familiar with improv, where we acknowledge some of the emotional content that we might have.

00:44:13.110 --> 00:44:21.360
<v Speaker>And based on what we were saying, it can be stuff like frustration or heartbreak or anger, and we start to widen our scope to notice some of the goodness that's happening too.

00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:24.300
<v Speaker>We'll do both in, in one short set.

00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:25.621
<v Speaker>Wonderful.

00:44:25.621 --> 00:44:26.456
<v Speaker>Well, thank you Lodro.

00:44:26.456 --> 00:44:35.266
<v Speaker>Thanks for writing this book and the the seven other ones you've written too, and all the good you're doing in the world and for being basically good.

00:44:35.266 --> 00:44:36.760
<v Speaker>Thanks so much for having me on the show.

00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:38.440
<v Speaker>I am so appreciative of the work that you do.

00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:40.001
<v Speaker>very much.

00:44:40.001 --> 00:44:40.619
<v Speaker>Namaste.

00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:41.235
<v Speaker>Namaste.

00:44:41.235 --> 00:44:41.853
<v Speaker>Namaste.

00:44:41.853 --> 00:44:42.471
<v Speaker>Namaste.

00:44:42.471 --> 00:44:43.088
<v Speaker>Namaste.

00:44:43.088 --> 00:44:52.244
<v Speaker>Thanks for joining me for this conversation with Lodro Rinzler about his new book, You Are Good, You Are Enough.

00:44:52.244 --> 00:45:06.793
<v Speaker>You can find links to buy his book there, along with hundreds of past episodes of this podcast, guided meditations, and an invitation for listeners to join the Train a Happy Mind community that meets every Sunday morning to talk and meditate together.

00:45:06.793 --> 00:45:12.554
<v Speaker>How to Train a Happy Mind is a non profit project of A Skeptic's Path to Enlightenment.

00:45:12.554 --> 00:45:15.523
<v Speaker>The podcast is offered freely and without ads.

00:45:15.523 --> 00:45:17.503
<v Speaker>Thanks to the support of listeners.

00:45:17.503 --> 00:45:22.393
<v Speaker>Thanks to Isabela Acebal for marketing and production on this episode.

00:45:22.393 --> 00:45:25.273
<v Speaker>We wish you a wonderful day.