Esports Series ft. Charles Conroy

 Welcome to the Radical Marketing Podcast.
 Here is your host, Ryan Alford.
 Hey guys, what's up?
 Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast,
 the Radical Marketing Podcast.
 Excited. Today is the second of many guests
 we're having over the next four to eight weeks
 in the eSports industry.
 It's been a fascinating discovery
 of really just the breadth scope
 and size of the industry
 and really excited to have today's guest,
 Charles Conroy, the Vice President
 of Gaming at the Switch.
 Charles, really appreciate you coming on.
 Thanks for having me, man.
 I'm excited to be here.
 Yeah, sweet.
 So let's dig right in, Charles.
 So VP of Gaming at the Switch,
 a lot of past experience in the eSports realms.
 I know with teams and events and all of that.
 But maybe let's just start right down the line of, you know,
 give everybody that condensed version maybe.
 I say that because we keep these to 30 to 40 minutes.
 I've never anyone, anyone's life story
 or business life story might could be longer.
 But would love to just dig first in kind of your background
 in eSports and just kind of the general career path for you.
 Absolutely. So I'll make it as condensed as possible.
 16 years of my life.
 But in 1999 as a player playing Counter-Strike,
 you know, found this game online with some buddies.
 And we found out that there were live events to participate
 for cash in this thing.
 So put a little team together with my friends.
 We drove down to Dallas, Texas.
 And we played in our first international tournament.
 And this was about 2001 at this point.
 And when we were there,
 we realized people flipped them all around the world
 to compete for what was, I think, 50 grand at the time,
 which was a huge deal.
 We absolutely annihilated.
 We didn't do well at all.
 No idea how good these guys were.
 But I saw a business there.
 So I ended up taking my team,
 going out and getting some corporate sponsorship
 from some endemic brands
 and putting together a really solid roster
 of some of the best guys in the country.
 We eventually became the number one team in North America,
 went around the world representing the U.S.
 We've played in the Eastwards World Cup in France.
 We were on a TV show in Korea for two months,
 where we actually lived in a player village
 and saw how massive this thing was getting.
 And at that point,
 I was putting my full force behind it.
 I was quite young at the time.
 I started the company around the 16.
 Wow.
 So when I was 18,
 it was when I was doing all the traveling.
 It was also a freshman at SMU in Dallas.
 So I was trying to balance college
 and running this company.
 And then direct TV came out with a TV show,
 which would be the first example of franchise leagues
 in North America.
 So they had 18 fully funded by direct TV
 in four different games.
 They had a big draft at the Playboy Mansion,
 which I went to when I was 19.
 I was certainly on my life.
 And they kind of,
 every 19-year-old's dream.
 Literally.
 Yeah.
 It's crazy.
 And they're like,
 what are you here for?
 I'm part of the video game team.
 Yeah.
 This is before it was cool.
 Do you have your fake ID?
 I didn't need it.
 I didn't do it.
 You already knew it.
 Yeah.
 All right.
 So that was pretty crazy, right?
 This new league had come out.
 You've seen this given like a $600,000-year budget.
 They paid for apartments for everyone in LA.
 What's here for them and your car?
 And these guys went from making $500 a month
 as players to 30,000 a year for an eight-week season.
 So we're living in LA for eight weeks.
 Filming this TV show.
 My team didn't do so well season one.
 We killed it.
 Season two came back.
 And we're the strongest competitors in the league.
 But it's just a real experience.
 So this was on TV around the world.
 They then expanded internationally.
 They built the league a little too fast too soon.
 And burned through about $45 million in two years.
 Wow.
 I don't have a season three.
 Yeah.
 It was really over the top.
 They took esports from.
 All right.
 We're going to pay just $500 a month.
 And it's a very niche thing to let's go.
 And it's as hard as we can.
 It's going to NFL producers.
 It's getting NASCAR guys involved.
 And it was awesome.
 It was just a little too early.
 Yeah.
 Anyway.
 So that shut down really abruptly.
 And it was sort of a dark time for you to see sports
 because people felt that newsport and direct TV
 couldn't do it with $45 million in two years.
 Maybe this thing was going to happen.
 You know, it was going to go the way of professional bowling
 where people will watch it.
 But it's about as big as it's going to get.
 And so it was an amazing thing to be a part of.
 But as fast as it rose, it crashed that quickly as well.
 So at that point, a few of us regrouped.
 A very close friend of mine, Jason Lake, who, you know,
 sort of an iconic figure in esports now.
 And had ran complexity gaming prior to this TV show.
 I was like, let's rebuild complexity.
 I at the time was 21 finishing up at SMU.
 And I, you know, wanted to do this full time that were made
 and doing this full time.
 We didn't have any cash.
 We had a great brand.
 And we had a bunch of stars that were available to us
 that had just spent the last two years on international television.
 So we had a talent.
 We had a brand.
 We had no funding whatsoever.
 So I went to CES for the pitch deck.
 You know, Jason and I and another guy named Jason Bass,
 who ran a web site called Godfrey.com,
 which was ESPN.com of esports.
 We got together and we started the team.
 I literally walked CES with a pitch book.
 Like a good book going up to every booth I thought
 would be even interested in gaming.
 Creative labs took a game along us right there at CES
 and committed to being our title sponsor for the team for the year.
 I gave us enough money to launch the organization.
 Re-launch it, I should say.
 And we were off to the races.
 Once we were back as really the only North American
 independent esports brand that had survived this massive shift.
 In North America, we had a ton of support,
 both from fans and companies that wanted to hop in.
 So we built the thing back up pretty quickly.
 I ended up having a product line of Best Buy of Complexity products,
 which is the coolest thing at the time I'd ever worked on.
 You know, all of our partners would work with us to have our players test products
 and optimize them for gaming.
 And then, you know, we kind of tell the story of a team in the design process
 in the back of the box.
 And we got a rev share in all those products.
 So that's when we turned Complexity into a real business.
 You know, we're all doing it full time.
 And then, you know, after a lot of success in the space,
 Twitch came out.
 And the viewers should numbers for esports really became apparent
 to brands out there.
 And a ton of money, one switch came out.
 A ton of outside money from sports teams started coming into esports.
 And it happened fast, man.
 We were talking nine months.
 All these teams went from ideas to 15, 20 million dollars in funding.
 So we're seeing everyone around us get funded.
 And we've been sort of just concentrating on the fundamentals and not fundraising.
 Yeah.
 And they needed to shift at that point.
 Because we were operating on like a $3 million dollar a year budget
 versus teams that had a $12 million dollar a year budget.
 And they were getting cash after being around for two months.
 You know, we've been around since 03.
 This was 2015.
 And so we really needed to shift our focus and go after some of that.
 And once we did, we had a ton of offers for cash.
 Because, you know, complexity being all the spread in North America
 appealed to a lot of brands.
 We ended up selling the company to the Dallas Cowboys,
 which was an insane process.
 You know, there's a lot of parts of that process that are just insane, right?
 I mean, you're, this is something we started.
 I was in a college dorm room literally.
 Jason started it in his house.
 And then, you know, it's nice to have to bring me in after a championship gaming series.
 But to now, you see them cross from the Cowboys, right?
 It was crazy.
 Their vision for the team overall one out.
 Because they fully integrated the team in the Cowboys system.
 So there's eat with the Cowboys for breakfast and lunch.
 They have the same mental health.
 Facilities that they have access to.
 All the physical training that goes into it.
 They built them in gorgeous facility.
 The game's not performing center out there in Frisco at the start.
 So once the Cowboys purchased the team, I was out.
 And my partner Jason Bass was out.
 I'm in Lake, who, you know, founded it.
 Stayed on the CEO and he's done a fantastic job with that brand.
 Still very good friend of mine today.
 And they're absolutely complex.
 He's absolutely killing it.
 They've arguably the best counter stricken team in the world right now.
 And they won the Madden Championship last year.
 And so they're doing great things for the Cowboys there.
 Yeah.
 Which brings us today.
 Hopefully this wasn't too long.
 That was perfect.
 And I was left gaming for about a year.
 It's been in since 2016.
 I was now 30 at the time.
 I just need a little break.
 I ended up opening a restaurant in New York,
 giving something completely different.
 Out of last, but really missed, you know, the industry.
 I frankly was one of the forefathers out.
 So I had a few offers to come back and.
 Buddy, mine at the switch.
 Talk to me about what they do.
 And what the switch does is we're the world's largest.
 Transmission broadcasters.
 So we take live events.
 And we put them on TV, including Super Bowl, the Oscars,
 the M.E.
 Even the Royal wedding.
 And beyond that, we produce events.
 So we have.
 Mobile production in a cloud.
 We have remote production in actual physical facilities in
 Burbank.
 And in a COVID America.
 Obviously, well, COVID world really.
 Not producing on site has become very popular.
 So we've been doing a ton of remote production for the PGA,
 for conference, you know, say in the traditional world.
 And we're the world leader in esports now.
 And infrastructure sharing and transmission.
 So every almost every live esports event is using us in some way.
 It's been really exciting.
 I've been there for a year, building out for a year and a half now,
 building up the esports vertical.
 There's plastic and phenomenal.
 And I'm glad we can bring.
 What traditional sports has from a quality level to esports.
 Yeah.
 That's awesome.
 There's a lot to unpack there.
 Yeah.
 You're.
 You kind of set so many levels of it.
 I want to start.
 I can start a lot of places.
 But I want to start with.
 The complexity part.
 You know, you obviously had the experience.
 Early on as a gamer and all of that, which is interesting.
 But.
 Unpack a little bit for someone.
 Because I think it was hard for me.
 I get it now, you know, having been, you know,
 someone of a gamer when I was younger.
 And, you know, following it, peripherally being an agency world
 where we had some sponsorship deals when I worked on surprise and stuff.
 So I, I got it and get it.
 It's.
 It's.
 A holistic level.
 But for someone kind of listening to understand exactly what was complexity.
 Like I know you said, well, we put teams together.
 We won tournaments.
 But as a brand, as an entity, what was in is complexity?
 What is the business model for someone kind of hearing of what complexity is?
 Because I think sometimes those things kind of get thrown out there.
 But I think people are like, I don't understand.
 How do.
 How do people make money in gaming and what exactly is this?
 Yeah, I got you, man.
 So complexity is a gaming organization.
 We call it a team.
 And underneath that banner of complexity gaming,
 there's players that play various titles.
 So you might have five, six, seven, eight games under one brand.
 So complexity is the overall entity.
 And it'd be like an entity owner.
 A major league baseball team and an NBA team.
 An MLS team.
 And then putting it all under one brand.
 So let's say.
 The Giants, right, weren't just football.
 The Giants also had Giants baseball.
 The Giants also had Giants soccer.
 And that's how gaming works for the most part.
 There's very few brands that are competing in one title.
 Because gaming is fluid.
 The most popular game is changing.
 So while the NBA is the established, you know,
 I'll call it ball and hoop game.
 And then you play.
 If you have a ball and you have a hoop, it's basketball.
 Well, there's 10 different types of shooting games.
 10 different types of MOBAs, which are the games you see
 with the up top view and the little guys running around.
 Yeah.
 And so there's multiple ball and hoop games in one category.
 So you might have multiple teams.
 And so there's multiple ball and hoop games in one category.
 So there's multiple teams in the same type of game.
 Or a shooter like Fortnite, right?
 That's the shooter, but so it's counter strike.
 Overly different games, totally different fan bases.
 So you'll have different teams all under one brand.
 And so that's what complexity is.
 And that's what.
 And how does how does complexity make money?
 So there's a lot of different ways to make money for an esports team.
 The most traditional way, which is corporate sponsorships, right?
 Back in the day, that's how we did it.
 You got a sponsor that paid you.
 So Mountain Dew comes along and sponsors complexity.
 I'm not saying that's a definitely who you had a sponsor, but as an example,
 Mountain Dew knows that this is an affluent group of people that are into this
 and no different than sponsoring the NBA or a facility or anything else.
 Mountain Dew comes along and goes, we're going to sponsor you for ex dollars
 and ex placements, brand placements, not just logo placements,
 but activations, if you will.
 And so that's the primary monetization trigger.
 Yeah, and you do a lot of cool brand activations.
 So these eyeballs are the hardest eyeballs to reach.
 And they're also the most desirable.
 It's young people.
 Ever things to all young males is actually a lot of females that watch gaming.
 You're looking at 14 to 45 higher disposable income than an NBA fan,
 higher disposable income than actually most sports fans.
 And they don't watch TV.
 They don't, you know, read traditional like papers.
 So how do you get these guys?
 You get them with their eyeballs on their eyeballs are on Twitch.
 Their eyeballs are on cool integrations with their favorite team that they see on Twitter.
 You know, different product drops.
 You have to get to them organically.
 And you have to be smart about how you get to these guys.
 But once you do get to gaming community, they've shown they're very willing to support brands that come in and support the space.
 BMW, I think, has done an incredible job this past year,
 and they've made a huge rule out with five teams.
 And they painted some of the cars and the team colors.
 And they had the guys doing driving tricks and talking about why they like BMW.
 And some people were like, wow, BMW is a load of your brand.
 Why would they do that?
 Well, a lot of gamers can afford.
 I mean, what's the starting BMW like 40 grand 50 grand?
 Yeah.
 That's not out of the reach for this market.
 That's actually very much in line with these guys that are 22, 23.
 They actually probably work in a tech space or make more cash than your average citizen.
 And they have a little bit more money to spend.
 And they're willing to spend it.
 They're willing to put it into premium products if you target them the right way.
 Is the words IT in the title for 80% of this demographic?
 A lot of people would think that, right?
 But esports fans are just like any other sports fan.
 Like they enjoy what they like to enjoy.
 If you, you know, everything under the sun.
 And I think there's a very common misconception.
 Yeah.
 It's all live in their mom's basement and our.
 If I teed that up, because I think that's what people think.
 Yeah.
 And so far from the truth, it's like.
 Totally.
 And it's just like in an NFL fan, right?
 Coming all shapes and sizes.
 This demographic is largely not been like that.
 If you look at these pro players, a lot of them look like you or I.
 You know, so I'm a little bit more like you.
 It looks good.
 Jim.
 A little bit more than I do.
 Hey, I got to make up for all my other deficiencies somehow.
 But, but yeah, I mean, it's all across the board.
 But, you know, from a financial perspective, this demographic does have.
 You know, more income than your average sports fan.
 And they've shown that they've been willing to spend.
 So back to the complex examples of sponsorship.
 So it's less about putting teams together.
 And obviously if winning, you know, the fund is in the winning.
 You know, putting the teams together, you want them to win.
 But is that less important than the influence of the.
 Is the team gaming influence, though?
 Kind of a chicken in the egg thing.
 Like you need to put together teams that win to get the influence,
 you get the influence when you have teams that win.
 Yeah.
 So, interesting point.
 So there's also a ton of other ways to make money.
 I'll run through those really quickly.
 Yeah.
 Breaksteels.
 So teams are getting cut in our meteorites for these tournaments.
 And when three or four million people are concurrently watching,
 that can be real money.
 And I think the future of e-sports income for these teams are in meteorite steels,
 much like the NFL.
 So meteorites are becoming a huge topic.
 Product drops.
 So a lot of these brands now have interesting clothing lines.
 The NADAC just did a deal with Gucci to do a limited edition watch.
 And something like that sells because it's limited.
 And again, 100 Ds.
 Basically, a made you product drops.
 They shut down parts of New York.
 Literally streets because hundreds and hundreds and thousands of people.
 Not hundreds of thousands, thousands of people have come out.
 And they're their fan bases is rabbit for new stuff.
 So there's a lot of ways to make money outside of this winning.
 And I use Facebook as an example.
 They really are a brand out there.
 They have a movie studio.
 They have one of the top channels on YouTube gaming.
 They put they have a content house.
 They make their money off produce who really interesting content.
 And winning is very much secondary to them.
 What team was that again?
 Faceland.
 They're cool.
 Okay.
 So they have like any probably I could look right now,
 but like 8 million Instagram fans.
 So they really engage through media and content creation.
 And creating this lifestyle brand.
 It's really cool.
 In relatable in the space.
 And then winning is part of that.
 Obviously, they want to win.
 They compete in esports.
 But if they lose, they're back and I lose mine.
 Yeah.
 Other teams rely on the winning to get the views to get the sponsorship.
 Got it.
 You build the brand big enough and interesting enough.
 It supersedes the winning.
 I mean, it's no different than other businesses in a lot of ways.
 You know, there's a lot of teams I could name right now that are not winning
 that are huge brands.
 Hey, I'm a next fan.
 It's tough, man.
 It is.
 If you want to go to the garden and still 250 for a ticket.
 And you're like, man, the lower team in the league.
 Doesn't matter.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Then the brand's huge regardless of that one and 20 something years.
 Right.
 Yeah.
 It's tough.
 But I know.
 I tried to, you know, I came close on New York fan living there.
 And for all the teams.
 And it was not the best of time periods for the baseball was good.
 But, you know, you think he'll always be interesting, right?
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Exactly.
 Is, um, the media writes that's fascinating.
 You know, Twitch kind of set this fuse of fire, I guess, in many ways.
 Correct.
 You know, with the, I know it's ever you got Facebook that now defunct Facebook
 gaming, I guess, or soon to be called something else.
 If I'm saying that right.
 Are they.
 So mixer rolled into mixer.
 Is that what?
 Shut down.
 Shut down and becoming Facebook gaming.
 Right.
 So they rolled it under Facebook's umbrella.
 Facebook's a huge play in space.
 YouTube just made it a huge play.
 Uh, so as an example, the overwatching Call of Duty leaks, which are.
 Lizards run.
 Uh, leaks.
 So there the traditional franchise system they travel around the world having.
 Uh, these tournaments people buy markets.
 They own that market and they own.
 You know, all the resources are in that market and they can solicit deals, etc.
 Uh, the media rights deal with Twitch was reportedly worth $45 million a year.
 For the right to broadcast that league.
 Um, now the people that pay a spot on this league is in between 20 to $40 million,
 depending on which franchise spot you get.
 It's an expansion, etc.
 Um, so they as part of that get a piece of that deal.
 Right.
 Uh, Twitch did not renew that deal and.
 Uh, they went out to get the lead went out to get a reported 160 million for.
 Uh, a two year deal, two or three or deal depending on who you talk to.
 Uh, with YouTube.
 So you.
 And it got the media rights to that league, which they.
 The overwatch you over.
 Yeah.
 These are much like you're seeing like the WWE moving over to Fox, right?
 Yeah.
 And so.
 Just like that, you know, when NBC lost the NFL back in the 90s and it went over to Fox.
 That was a huge deal.
 So that is happening gaming now.
 You're seeing serious money being put towards broadcast rights.
 Yeah.
 It's crazy is um.
 And I did wonder the first time I watched which I was like these guys getting.
 Royalties on any of this.
 I mean, you're being in the business, you know, I balls and media traditionally.
 I was kind of like my head first one there when it came out now.
 Sounds like that's becoming the hot topic.
 And I mean, streamers are making 15, 20 million dollars of their big.
 Everyone uses the example of ninja because.
 You know, every parent has heard of ninja.
 I have a I have a funny story when I was in Vegas and ninja was there and Champ Bailey was there.
 And I'd say the people going up to ninja for an autograph for 15 times out of Champ Bailey.
 And it was all parents being like he was we're there for the McGregor fight and he was there as well.
 And every parent was coming.
 I need this for my kid like he's a rock star.
 He's in the cover of ESPN magazine.
 But his exclusive deal to stream was 30 million a year.
 Just a stream on the mixer platform where she got paid out on a label that he's also got his own red bull pen.
 He's one of the face of Samsung.
 I mean, he's getting paid $500,000 in appearance.
 So for him to show up in an event and put him in his Instagram and tweet about it.
 That's 500 grand.
 So.
 The streamers are making serious money at the top level.
 Everyone uses him as an example.
 It's obviously the extreme top.
 Yeah.
 You know, a player on salary is going to make in and giving counters for 20 grand a month.
 So that's 240 to 50 plus prize money.
 So you're.
 You're playing to making 500 up from the grant a year.
 You know, and then endorsements are coming in.
 So this is a lucrative opportunity for guys that want to go pro.
 And somebody is actually in the NHL that are making less than my sports buddies.
 My um, so in other words, I had the same discussion on a previous guest.
 I should keep encouraging my kids to play them.
 Sounds like the, the, the opportunity is there.
 You know, I get that question a lot.
 Probably every Delta Flood I'm on when I sit.
 When we start talking like so my kids should do this.
 It's such a balance.
 You know, it's like, I don't mind it.
 It's not game or not ever.
 They play.
 They're still kind of in the Fortnite.
 I mean, they're all, they're not really quite at the age where I want them like, you know,
 blood and guts blowing people's heads off.
 Like, you know, I mean, I got that.
 But, you know, my 10 year old seems to be in the higher echelon for his age group for Fortnite.
 So I don't know.
 They're coming out with a ton of leagues, like sort of a boys and girls club model.
 Or younger gamers to game in a safe space.
 And there's multiple startups doing that right now.
 It's really interesting.
 Because parents want to encourage you, but they also, you know, you don't want your,
 your kid online talking to some creep.
 Yeah.
 You got F bombs flying in like, you know, I mean, I don't call it on my kids.
 I mean, they, Daddy's not always had the perfect mouth, but at the same time.
 But this, it's, there's been some bad players in the gaming space, I think, as far as just the,
 from language to, like you said, some, some things out there.
 No different than any other thing or entity, right?
 There's always the good and the bad.
 So there's a ton of startups trying to cater to that need and making like a safe or space for that age group.
 Much like a boys and girls club of America.
 I will say to your point, as far as people coming into the space,
 and I think very relevant to your audience here.
 The biggest thing I can state, if you're going to enter the esports spaces,
 you have to come in organically.
 They can, they can smell BS a mile away.
 People have thrown money at it and failed.
 Much like the TV show I was on, right?
 They spent a bunch of money and they did it wrong.
 And they tried to fit a game into a linear time spot, which is, is not easy to do.
 Because sometimes they run long, which is like a baseball game, it's extra ending, et cetera.
 But there's so many ways to come into gaming in a great way,
 to capitalize on an audience that has cash, is willing to spend it,
 and it's energized, excited, and will help you brand out in digital space,
 reaching you, following your Facebook page, et cetera, et cetera,
 and help your online metrics blow up.
 But you have to approach it in an organic way.
 And if you don't, you'll burn out really quickly.
 Yeah, and to that point, we're talking, we've been talking big,
 we talked about Ninja, the biggest gamer in the space.
 We talked about big brands.
 I'd love to know your perspective for small to medium business,
 because it's such an, you know, again, as a previous guest we had,
 we said it's unattainable for a small to medium business to have an MBA sponsorship,
 you know, or an MLB or something like that.
 But he sports is still, it's certainly not nascent,
 but it's still early enough that there's ways.
 So I'd love to know, how do you bite off organic real,
 but small chunks for small to medium businesses?
 Are those opportunities out there?
 Because I think a lot of brands in that medium size,
 small all of the game, but even medium size,
 they don't even know where to start, you know?
 Yeah, absolutely.
 So there's a ton of ways for small to medium businesses to get involved.
 One way would be partnering with an individual streamer.
 So maybe not an entire team,
 but partnering with someone that you think,
 and evangelize your brand or a couple streamers,
 and then activating them in really cool ways.
 If a brand's creative and they're smart,
 then they have a small budget, it's fine,
 because the digital world is a very huge world.
 You can create really cool campaigns from people's houses now,
 and in the COVID world, you kind of have to.
 And in gamers or smart, they appreciate like funny or witty or cool campaigns
 that are out of the box.
 So if you utilize one piece of talent really well,
 or two pieces of talent really well,
 you don't need to spend the money on a whole team.
 With that said, there's a lot of teams out there
 that are starting out that have good players behind them
 or interesting personalities.
 You know, that would be like a mid-tier team,
 considered them like semi-professional.
 And if you activate that talent in the right way,
 you can get a ton of ROI and a ton of bank with that buck.
 Yeah, I love it.
 Let's switch a little bit, literally, to the switch.
 Talk about that platform.
 I'm a name drop a little bit.
 One of my good friends who actually lives here in Greenville,
 but I'm New York is Scott Cole,
 who's the voice of the D.A.2K, one of the voices.
 And so Scott and I did a radio show back about five years ago.
 We're both Climson fans and then an old radio show,
 but good friend, great guy.
 And he's been, last night I was watching the D.A.2K tournament
 on ESPN2, so I just go to the end,
 showing the growth of this, what's in virtual basketball.
 But I'd love to know, like, is in understanding what the switches roll
 and watching something like that broadcast, like ESPN2,
 is there, there's got to be a transmission going on.
 You've got teams playing a million different places.
 I'd love to understand the role of the switch
 as it relates to esports and transmission and these types of things.
 Yeah, absolutely.
 So ESPN is actually one of our biggest clients.
 I love those guys behind of them if they're watching.
 Yeah, so we operate in sort of a three or four-fold capacity.
 If there's a live event,
 the first thing we're going to try to do is bring in connectivity.
 So we'll bring in two private one-gig lines of internet.
 This will never touch the public internet.
 So it's on our fiber network.
 It's fully protected.
 So it's not going to go down.
 If it does go down, it's way of the other one,
 but hopefully it doesn't go down.
 Yeah.
 It's not going to get hacked.
 A big thing in ESports,
 because it's a very tech-on-screen-literate group,
 is, you know, D.A.2S attacks and things of that nature.
 You can really mess with an event.
 Since it's a public internet, you can't do that.
 It's not a challenge to anyone out there.
 I'm just saying.
 Yeah.
 You want to do that?
 Yeah, we want to enable any hackers out there.
 Exactly.
 So, you know, once you have that private internet,
 they can use that for their event.
 We can then put it on our network,
 which is, you know, can distribute to an ESPN
 or to one of our 800 US partners or partners around the world.
 So once on our network,
 you can put in like a pool feed and people can just grab it.
 We do that for like the iPhone launch.
 So let's say Apple's launching an iPhone.
 You know, and you want to grab it as CNBC,
 or you want to grab it as Bloomberg,
 or you want to grab it,
 I don't know why you do this for ESPN,
 but for example, for ESPN,
 you can just grab it from our pool feed,
 which is great.
 We can then transmit that anywhere in the world.
 So if it needs to be linear,
 if it needs to be satellite,
 if it needs to be on its cellular,
 or if we just do OTT internet transmission,
 anywhere in the world,
 we can send that video signal.
 And we do all the encoding and decoding for that on our side,
 because like for the Super Bowl, right?
 They need it in a ton of different formats
 in various parts of the world.
 And we can convert all that in real time
 and send it out in whatever format they need.
 And then the last part,
 the services that we offer is production.
 So we can produce the entire event next to bolts.
 We can allow you to use our cloud-based production product
 or one of our remote control rooms.
 You know, we're, you know,
 people traditionally bringing in trucks,
 but the remote control rooms are replacing that.
 For example, the PGA is being produced
 out of our Burbank studio,
 because a lot of people don't want to fly
 around the country right now.
 And people are worried about, you know,
 not only your T&E budget,
 but just getting sick and weighing out your people.
 And so these guys are waking up,
 they go into the control room in Burbank.
 They're cutting the show,
 and they're going back to the room that's,
 and that's going to be, I think, a very popular service moving forward.
 Obviously due to the condition of the world,
 but also it's from a convenience,
 you know, from that standpoint.
 So we have studios and control rooms out there in Burbank.
 And for eSports, we're obviously utilizing those.
 The cloud-based product has been super popular,
 because you can produce and cut an entire show.
 It's like having a control room on your web browser.
 We just released that.
 So that's been very popular in the eSports space.
 Is that self-serve?
 Yeah, so you basically would book a time slot.
 And it could be any time slot.
 We have as many instances running at one time.
 But you'd say I want three hours or I want five hours
 over this weekend to produce.
 And you have to have logins
 and you can spin it up yourself.
 And then your whole team is on their computers wherever they're in the world.
 And your cutting a show is if you're in the same room.
 Wow.
 That's cool.
 Is that a commercial call?
 Like, like, is that how attainable is that for,
 like, what kind of not to name the pricing per se?
 But how are we talking about, like, you know?
 It's a much easier price point than, like,
 running one of the remote controls physically.
 Right.
 So it is, I think, attainable for anyone wanting to do a legit production.
 Yeah.
 I think the price point's crazy competitive.
 Yeah.
 We've got a lot of response to that.
 And again, with distancing becoming a thing,
 do you need your guy doing the replay edits in the room with you?
 Like, is that totally necessary?
 And the answer is, no, it's not.
 You know, this guy that's cutting the replays doesn't need to be,
 you know, within this much space as a guy next to him in a control room.
 Yeah.
 As I try to thin out that control room,
 we've come up with really creative options.
 And this is in the works, you know, for a year and a half.
 So wait before COVID.
 And now this happened and we're.
 Hopefully an option to keep people safe during a very difficult time.
 Um, you know, but less people in one space is sort of the name of the game right now.
 And we get creative and affordable ways to do that.
 That's cool.
 So what's, um, what's your day to day role?
 Um, as far as growing esports within switch, you know, like what's,
 now you, we mentioned pre episode travel a lot.
 Like what's kind of the nuts and bolts of what you do now and trying to grow esports for the brand?
 Yeah, so, so my job is to, it's a business of elemental.
 Um, it's to attain, you know, so leagues out there have transmission options and have production options.
 And we're obviously the best one.
 So my job to just talk to people about the switch and what makes it different.
 Um, but because it was a new vertical, I mean, we launched it a year and a half ago.
 It was a lot of travel.
 It was about 160 days last year.
 Uh, it was like 20 cities, 12 countries.
 It was, uh, it was a lot.
 It was awesome.
 It was fun.
 Um, but it was, yeah, it's a, it's a lot of time, you know, dedicated to just getting out there and getting the brand out there and explaining what we're different.
 You know, we've gotten great results.
 We signed ESL, Call of Duty League Overwatch League last pro series and we play.
 Um, so out of like the top six leagues, that's five of them.
 So it was, uh, it was a big year for us.
 And thankfully the market's taken to the traditional sports world has had for the last 32 years in the switch.
 Um, and the results of speaking for themselves, we were very happy.
 And as these sports grows and becomes, you know, more sophisticated and technical needs, we're happy to go with it and be there to support it.
 That's cool.
 Is, um, what's your favorite game?
 Favorite.
 So I was a counterstrike player.
 So that's okay.
 My favorite game to watch.
 I just think it's, it's perfect.
 I think the most balanced game on the planet.
 And so still a huge game.
 And it doesn't give as much air time on like an ESPN because it's the way about.
 Terror is planning a bomb and then people diffusing said bomb.
 Yeah.
 Off cell sometimes.
 Yeah.
 A great story.
 I have it's a marketing story.
 You'll love this.
 All right.
 Back in the early days of these sports, like 2009.
 It might have been early.
 It might have been 2006.
 It was this is early on.
 It's back when we were playing in like the back of land centers and hotel volumes are the biggest thing in the planet and you're playing 50 grand prize.
 Uh, Tylenol wanted to come into the space.
 And they sponsored this really sort of rag tag team of really good players that were very rough around the edges from something California.
 They were really good.
 But like, you know, these guys were known as I don't think the bad was in these sports.
 It's a bad.
 They could.
 But, um, you know, they were sort of the outsiders, but they're really good.
 They never really had a corporate sponsorship because of the way that they interacted and Tylenol came in and said, Hey, we want this.
 We want to get these sports and start the team up out gaming.
 And so they sponsored these guys for I believe it was 10 grand among plus computers.
 To the time is a lot.
 Yeah.
 It was a massive deal.
 So they came to the first event and they watched the counterstrike was and it was literally about guys shooting each other and they had the planning bombs.
 Using bombs.
 It's just not so long after 9-11, right?
 Right.
 They immediately said, Hey, your name on the team.
 And he keep the cash.
 Don't worry about the computers rebrand the team back to whatever you want.
 Yeah.
 Somebody signed the deal.
 I didn't realize what it was.
 Right.
 And they came to the event and they were like, what the hell is this?
 And they bombed a fuse.
 I can't say bombed a fuse.
 It was, uh, it was an interesting thing to watch.
 I wonder if that marketing guy lasted much longer.
 Yeah.
 I don't know.
 I mean, I don't know.
 I guess 120 grand for them is not really anything.
 Dropping the bucket.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 That went down.
 It was funny.
 Again, the other complete opposite example, be BMW coming in and really thoughtfully taking a year and a half to put together a deal with the right teams and the right games.
 Yeah.
 So some sponsors come in and they don't just blanket sponsor every team, like they'll be like, all right.
 We only want your non-shooting games.
 Or we only want this.
 So.
 You know, violence and shooting and that stuff is, is a no no for some of these brands.
 Exactly. Where's our going? I mean, what's the, what's the, I don't
 want to say endpoint, but like, where's the, you know, you've got, I was speaking
 to someone, you know, the popularity of the counterstrikes and the shoot,
 shoot them up games as well, we'll simplify it. I'm sure some gamer would
 would would not appreciate that over simplification of, you know, third player,
 first player, all that stuff, but where is all this headed? It's just about to
 explode even further with broadcasting and those kind of things we're going to
 have seven stations that are broadcasting games on direct TV like, you know,
 where's all this headed? I mean, look, you're, you're talking to a real
 believer here and I, you know, I've been able to have a pretty incredible
 life because of these boards and it's a rocket ship right now. The number is
 no, my, the viewership members are insane. They're a lot bigger than a lot of
 traditional sports kids are growing up like your kids, for example, playing these
 games, you know, less kids are are playing football, for example, just learn that
 out there because parents don't want their kids to play football. They're
 consuming content much differently. It's, it's not like, you know, even when I
 was a kid coming home and you have sports starting at 7 p.m. or 8 p.m., the 24
 seven access to, to all this stuff. There's a tournament going on every night in
 multiple times zones around the world. So if you want to watch something at
 noon, you want something at noon. You're interacting in a much different way.
 You're not sitting in front of a TV. You're actually involved in the experience.
 It's a chat options and second screen options. So I think the market is
 really loudly as to what they like and they tell people all the time. You
 don't have to get it. Like, it's not a debate to me whether esports is popular or
 not. Right. There's numbers. You can, you can say, I don't understand it.
 And that's totally fine. There's a ton of live sports that I'm watching. I got
 in a, I don't need a debate, but a huge conversation with my buddy yesterday
 about cricket. He thinks I think thing in the world. I don't get it. I, you know,
 but I don't have to get it. He's from India, it's huge in India. And I don't
 need to get it to understand that massive value where we're from. And esports is
 the same way. You don't need to get it. The numbers are there. It'd be a
 missed opportunity if every company is not looking at an esports strategy right
 now. And thoughtfully looking at one of that, again, we've seen companies
 enter the space the wrong way. So many times and get burned for it. You could do
 more damage here, braille than good if you, if you're lazy about this. Yeah. The
 numbers are going to continue to grow up and go up. Whether linear TV is the
 option or the go to, I don't know. This fan base didn't grow up watching linear
 TV. Most of them don't have cable. Yeah. You know, the, the majority of them
 don't have cable. You know, they, they get their TV through YouTube TV or
 Hollywood or whatever. So everyone's like, well, how many channels are we going to
 have? Is there going to be a dedicated ESPN? Well, yeah, I mean, there is. And
 there's a couple of companies trying to do that right now. Then being one of
 them. But that doesn't need to be, I don't need to turn on channel 37 and see
 esports because I have my computer anywhere in the world with internet connection.
 And it's frankly easier. Yeah. Exactly. Well, Charles, man, really fascinating. I
 mean, I really appreciate your insights, your background. I, you know, it makes
 me want to play like a game or something while we're talking. I did this. We thought
 another guy like, like wanting to, throughout the old, uh,
 contra cheat code. Yeah. If you remember it, it's like up up down down.
 There's, uh, man, I love right, right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, brings back the
 memories, but now it's so darn complex. Like my, my brain goes a little sideways
 unless I'm playing like Rocket League or Matt, you know,
 and I mean, there's people ask me like, when I play all the time, and if I'm
 going to sit down and play a game, I like the, you know, single player story games
 because you can zone out and chill for a little bit. Yeah. Like legend is elder.
 It's a good time. You just chill for a couple hours and you play a game and you zone out
 for a little bit because multiple games can get really intense. And as a guy that
 played, it's hard for me to like, it's, well, I don't want to use a Jordan example,
 but I'm going to go ahead and do it. Uh, Jordan doesn't play a pickup game,
 and play a casual pickup game. That's not how Jordan operates.
 So I was really, really, really bad esports version of Jordan. Never had any successes of
 a player, but I'm going to go ahead and say, uh, I can't, you know, the Jordan scenario and pickup
 game. Yeah. Well, you I'm sure your bad is a lot of people's good, uh, with the company you're
 keeping. So Charles, man, really appreciate the time. I know our listeners will enjoy it. And,
 I hope to stay safe there in New York. And if you travel through the Greenville area,
 let's stay in touch and we'll grab a beer or something. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Ryan,
 for having me and thank you everyone for listening. Really appreciate it. Great. Hey guys,
 it's Ryan Alford. Really appreciate everyone listening to this episode of the Radcast.
 Follow along at the dot rad dot cast on Instagram or at radical dot results. And we'll see you next time.
 To learn more about Radical, visit Radical dot company on the web or follow Ryan on Instagram
 at Ryan Alford. Thanks for listening to the Radical Marketing Podcast.