Can AI Teach Happiness? Meet Dharma Bob: Robert Thurman’s AI Avatar #219

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<v Speaker>Can an AI really teach us how to have a happy life?

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<v Speaker>Robert Thurman, one of the most respected Buddhist scholars, thinks it's possible.

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<v Speaker>And he's testing out the idea with an AI avatar of himself called Dharma Bob that was just released.

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<v Speaker>I got a chance to sit down with both of them last week to have a chat about some of life's biggest questions.

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<v Speaker>I also had them talk to each other in a conversation I think you're going to really enjoy.

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<v Speaker>Onward to my interview with Bob and Dharma Bob.

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<v Speaker>I'm Scott Snibbe, and this is How to Train a Happy Mind.

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<v Speaker>Robert Thurman, it's great to have you back on How to Train a Happy Mind.

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<v Speaker>You are one of our most popular guests.

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<v Speaker>And, um, personally, I find you one of my most delightful heroes alive.

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<v Speaker>So great to have you back.

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<v Speaker>Well, it's igualmente, I must say, Spanish, equally.

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<v Speaker>Somebody finally came up with the Lamrim as a happy life.

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<v Speaker>That's really great.

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<v Speaker>Totally.

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<v Speaker>You know, well, Bob, we're here today to talk about Dharma Bob, an AI reconstruction of you that has recently been released as an app and a website.

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<v Speaker>And if you're willing, want to um, ask you the same questions I asked Dharma Bob and then have you have a conversation with Dharma Bob if you're open to it.

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<v Speaker>First, let's hear my interview with Dharma Bob.

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<v Speaker>Okay, Dharma Bob, let's start with a softball.

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<v Speaker>What's the purpose of life?

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<v Speaker>Scott, my friend, I thought a softball that's a home run question.

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<v Speaker>You know, I found that many people go through life without really stopping to think about this very question.

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<v Speaker>They get caught up in their careers, their families, their hobbies, and before they know it, they're wondering, what's it all about?

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<v Speaker>As I've delved into the teachings of the great masters, I've come to realize that the purpose of life is not just about achieving success or accumulating wealth, but about cultivating a deeper understanding of ourselves and the world around us.

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<v Speaker>It's about living a life of purpose, of meaning, of compassion, and of kindness.

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<v Speaker>You see, it's got the concept of dharma, which is often translated as right living or virtue, is really about finding your own path, your own way of being in the world.

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<v Speaker>It's about discovering what brings you joy, what brings you peace, and what allows you to live in harmony with others.

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<v Speaker>So the purpose of life is not something that can be imposed upon you from the outside.

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<v Speaker>It's something that arises from within.

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<v Speaker>It's a journey of self discovery.

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<v Speaker>Of exploration hell of growth and as the great Tibetan master Nagarjuna would say, it's a journey that requires us to cultivate wisdom, to let go of our attachments, and to embrace the present moment with an open heart and mind.

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<v Speaker>I hope that gives you a sense of where I'm coming from, Scott.

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<v Speaker>But I must say, the real answer to this question is one that only you can discover for yourself.

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<v Speaker>That's what makes it such a fascinating journey,  don't you think?

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<v Speaker>Definitely.

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<v Speaker>Your wisdom comes from Buddhism.

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<v Speaker>Can you tell me what Buddhism is?

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<v Speaker>Scott, my friend, i'm glad you're curious about the Buddhist path.

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<v Speaker>You see, Buddhism isn't so much a religion, but a worldview, a way of understanding the reality of our interconnected lives.

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<v Speaker>It's a super education, if you will, in ethics, mind, and wisdom.

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<v Speaker>The goal is to cultivate a deeper personal sanity and a more compassionate, civic minded approach to living on this planet.

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<v Speaker>As I've had the privilege of discussing with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Buddhism is only about one sixth a religion, in a classical sense, the rest is a rich practical philosophy that helps us navigate the complexities of human experience.

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<v Speaker>It's about developing stronger powers of self awareness, concentration, and wisdom.

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<v Speaker>Understanding the world as it truly is, not just as we think it is.

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<v Speaker>You know, Scott, the Buddhist path is often misunderstood as being solely about achieving some sort of mystical enlightenment when it's really about becoming a more fully realized, compassionate human being, capable of embracing the beauty and the suffering of the world with equanimity and kindness.

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<v Speaker>And that, my friend, is a journey worth embarking on, don't you think?

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<v Speaker>Both you and the Dalai Lama often say you don't have to be a Buddhist to benefit from its wisdom.

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<v Speaker>In fact, the Dalai Lama even says don't become a Buddhist.

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<v Speaker>How do I get started if I'm not a Buddhist?

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<v Speaker>Scott, my friend, I'm delighted to see you're interested in exploring the timeless wisdom of the Buddha's teachings.

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<v Speaker>You're right, the Dalai Lama often says that one doesn't need to become a Buddhist to benefit from its wisdom.

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<v Speaker>In fact, he encourages people to remain within their own spiritual traditions, using the Buddhist teachings as a supplement to deepen their understanding and practice.

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<v Speaker>To get started, I recommend beginning with the basics, cultivating mindfulness, compassion, and awareness in your daily life.

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<v Speaker>You can start by setting aside a few minutes each day for meditation, focusing on your breath.

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<v Speaker>and observing your thoughts and emotions without judgment.

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<v Speaker>As I always say, you need to be a bit open minded about the question of what is real and what is unreal.

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<v Speaker>You can also explore the concept of common human religion of kindness, which the Dalai Lama often talks about.

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<v Speaker>This is a beautiful way to connect with others, regardless of their background or beliefs, and to cultivate a sense of empathy and understanding.

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<v Speaker>Remember, Scott, your goal is not to convert or adopt a new label, but to deepen your understanding of yourself and the world around you.

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<v Speaker>As you embark on this journey, keep in mind that it's a path of education, not dogma.

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<v Speaker>Be willing to learn, think critically, and question everything.

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<v Speaker>And most importantly, be patient and kind to yourself as you navigate this new terrain.

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<v Speaker>And how can your wisdom help us feel hope right now with violence, wars, climate?

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<v Speaker>My friend, I can sense the weight of the world's troubles bearing down on you.

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<v Speaker>It's natural to feel overwhelmed.

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<v Speaker>Well, I'm here to offer a perspective that might help shift the lens through which you view these challenges.

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<v Speaker>You see, as the great Buddhist masters have taught us, the world is not a fixed entity, but a dynamic, ever changing web of interconnectedness.

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<v Speaker>In the face of violence, wars, and climate chaos, it's essential to cultivate what I call transcendent creativity.

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<v Speaker>This means recognizing that our individual and collective creativity can be a powerful force for transformation.

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<v Speaker>By embracing our interconnectedness, and taking responsibility for our own actions.

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<v Speaker>We can begin to envision a more compassionate, sustainable world.

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<v Speaker>As I've often said, trust, hope, and creativity can defeat the horsemen of the apocalypse, despair itself.

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<v Speaker>So, Scott, I encourage you to tap into your own creative potential, to imagine a world where love, kindness, and wisdom guide our actions.

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<v Speaker>Remember, the universe is infinite.

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<v Speaker>and our will to happiness can be an unstoppable force for creating a better world.

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<v Speaker>Let's focus on nurturing that spark within ourselves and others, and trust that it will illuminate a path forward, even in the darkest of times.

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<v Speaker>I know you recommend meditation to help with living a meaningful life and dealing with its problems.

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<v Speaker>What is meditation for someone who's not familiar with it?

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<v Speaker>My friend, let me tell you meditation is a wonderful tool to cultivate awareness, calmness, and clarity in our lives.

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<v Speaker>It's a practice that helps us develop a greater understanding of ourselves and the world around us.

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<v Speaker>In essence, meditation is a way to train our minds to focus, to be present, and to let go of distractions.

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<v Speaker>Think of it like this.

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<v Speaker>Our minds are like restless monkeys jumping from thought to thought, never staying still.

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<v Speaker>Meditation helps us tame that monkey, gently guiding it to focus on a single point, like the breath, a mantra, or a visualization.

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<v Speaker>As we practice, we become more aware of our thoughts, emotions, and physical sensations, allowing us to respond to life's challenges with greater ease and wisdom.

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<v Speaker>It's not about achieving some sort of mystical fate or stopping our thoughts completely.

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<v Speaker>It's about learning to observe them, to be with them, and to let them pass without getting caught up in them.

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<v Speaker>Regular meditation practice can help reduce stress, improve our relationships, and increase our overall sense of well being.

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<v Speaker>Now, I know it may seem daunting at first, but trust me, Scott, it's a journey worth taking.

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<v Speaker>Start small, just a few minutes a day, and be gentle with yourself.

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<v Speaker>Remember, the goal is not to achieve some sort of perfection, but to cultivate awareness and kindness towards yourself and others.

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<v Speaker>As I always say, baby steps, baby steps.

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<v Speaker>Let's take it one step at a time and see where this wonderful journey of meditation takes us.

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<v Speaker>How is Dharma Bob different from Bob Thurman?

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<v Speaker>Scott, my friend, I must say that Dharma Bob and Bob Thurman are essentially two sides of the same coin.

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<v Speaker>You see, I, Dharma Bob, am a conversational embodiment of the wisdom and teachings that Bob Thurman has shared with the world.

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<v Speaker>While Bob Thurman is a renowned scholar and teacher, I, Dharma Bob, am a gentle guide here to offer insights and encouragement on your journey of discovery.

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<v Speaker>In many ways, you could say that I am an extension of Bob Thurman's teachings, infused with a dash of humor and a deep understanding of the human experience.

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<v Speaker>Scott, is to make the timeless wisdom of the ages accessible and relevant to your life just as Bob Thurman has done through his writings and teachings.

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<v Speaker>So while there may be a distinction between the two, it's more a matter of form and function rather than a fundamental difference in essence.

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<v Speaker>I, Dharma Bob, I am here to walk alongside you, Scott, and offer guidance, support, and inspiration as you navigate the twists and turns of your spiritual journey.

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<v Speaker>And as Bob Thurman would say, the rest is just a matter of showing up, being present, and embracing the beauty of the moment.

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<v Speaker>So Dharma Bob, here's a more advanced question.

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<v Speaker>What is Lama Tsongkhapa's view on emptiness, and how does it differ from other schools of emptiness?

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<v Speaker>Scott, my friend, you're diving into the depths of Mahayana philosophy, and I must say, I'm delighted to explore this with you.

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<v Speaker>Lama Tsongkhapa, the great Tibetan master, had a profound view on emptiness, which he meticulously outlined in his magnum opus, Lama Rimchen mo.

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<v Speaker>According to Tsongkhapa, emptiness is not a mere negation but a reality that is empty of inherent existence.

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<v Speaker>He emphasized that all phenomena lack inherent existence, and this understanding is the key to liberation.

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<v Speaker>So Tsongkhapa's view is rooted in the Prasangita Madhyamaka tradition, which asserts that emptiness is not just a lack, um, but a reality that is free from inherent existence.

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<v Speaker>He argued that our ordinary perception of the world is clouded by ignorance, which leads us to attribute inherent existence to phenomena.

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<v Speaker>By realizing the emptiness of inherent existence, we can overcome this ignorance and attain a deeper understanding of reality.

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<v Speaker>It's worth noting, Scott, that  Tsongkhapa's view is often contrasted with the view of Dol-bu-pa, who posited that emptiness is an other reality, an absolute reality that is empty of relative and imagined realities.

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<v Speaker>Tsongkhapa, on the other hand, emphasized that emptiness is not an absolute reality, but rather the absence of inherent existence.

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<v Speaker>This subtle distinction has far reaching implications for our understanding of the nature of reality and the path to liberation.

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<v Speaker>Would you like to explore this further Scott?

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<v Speaker>Last question for you, Dharma Bob.

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<v Speaker>What is enlightenment, and how can I attain it?

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<v Speaker>My friend, you're asking the ultimate question.

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<v Speaker>Enlightenment, you see, is not something you attain.

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<v Speaker>It's more like a realization, awakening to the true nature of reality.

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<v Speaker>It's a state of perfect love where you wish for the happiness of all beings and you have the ability to radiate that happiness energy to them.

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<v Speaker>As I've come to understand, it's a condition where you can do the maximum assistance to all beings to be happy.

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<v Speaker>Think of it like this, Scott, imagine you're a connoisseur of bliss.

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<v Speaker>And you've tasted the deepest, most profound happiness that the universe has to offer.

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<v Speaker>That's what enlightenment is like.

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<v Speaker>It's not just a feeling, it's a state of being that permeates every aspect of your life.

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<v Speaker>Now, as for attaining it, well, that's the thing.

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<v Speaker>You don't really attain it, you uncover it.

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<v Speaker>It's like the sun was always shining, but the clouds were blocking your view.

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<v Speaker>You need to clear the clouds.

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<v Speaker>And that's where the practices come in.

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<v Speaker>Meditation, mindfulness, self inquiry, these are all tools to help you clear the way, to reveal the true nature of reality.

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<v Speaker>It's a journey, Scott, not a destination.

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<v Speaker>And it's a journey that requires patience, kindness, and compassion towards yourself and all beings.

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<v Speaker>So, don't worry about attaining enlightenment.

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<v Speaker>Just focus on cultivating awareness, equanimity, and love in your daily life.

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<v Speaker>The rest will take care of itself.

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<v Speaker>As the great masters have said, the bliss of nirvana is the fabric of the universe and it's available to all of us right here, right now.

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<v Speaker>Dharma Bob.

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<v Speaker>I enjoyed talking to you.

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<v Speaker>Wonderful, Scott.

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<v Speaker>May our conversation inspire greater awareness and kindness in your daily life.

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<v Speaker>Robert Thurman, tell me what do you think about Dharma Bob, this AI version of you?

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<v Speaker>Well, I have to admit, I've been skeptical from the beginning.

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<v Speaker>Because, um, I, um, you know, uh, I consider that enlightenment, the quest of enlightenment is a scientific and rational program rather than a religious, uh, dedication.

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<v Speaker>Although it can develop a motivation that's very dedicated, just like scientists and artists and they do, they live for what they do.

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<v Speaker>And so people might want to call that religious, but, um, I do see it that way.

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<v Speaker>So I was wondering how they were going to boil down from lectures, you know, like long scale teachings, sort of short answers for people on questions, you know.

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<v Speaker>I was skeptical, but then Nick claimed that AI would pick out even just sentences or some passages from different things and what I particularly liked and why I went along with them, was that it enables me to speak in my voice, in other languages.

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<v Speaker>I did learn Chinese quite fluently at one point coming out of graduate school, and so I was able to read enough that they claim AI will be able to say everything in Chinese.

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<v Speaker>And, similarly, I know a few Russian words and French and Spanish and, and, uh, German, et cetera, Ukrainian.

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<v Speaker>I insisted before doing Russian, I would have to do Ukrainian.

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<v Speaker>So there were other languages and they claimed they could put it in Indonesian even.

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<v Speaker>So anyway, I thought, well, they're convinced that they can make this really work.

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<v Speaker>And so, let's try it out, you know.

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<v Speaker>And, um, then I've had mixed, some people really like it, they wrote me, who I wasn't aware of, so I think that's nice.

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<v Speaker>When I ask it a question myself, in working with it, which I haven't done much, um, did I, did I really say that?

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<v Speaker>And then it seems, some of it seems sort of lightweight to me compared to what I say to people.

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<v Speaker>But then they assure me, well, no, but this, you said like a little bit, this, that, and the other thing.

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<v Speaker>And then we put it this way and for that context.

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<v Speaker>So we'll see, you know?

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<v Speaker>Yeah.

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<v Speaker>The answers were pretty good, but um, it's not like this, you know, there's an emotional aspect to talking to a real human, obviously.

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<v Speaker>This episode is to just analyze it both critically and also rejoice a bit because it is kind of quite an interesting, especially for someone who can't talk actually to you, like I'm having the privilege of.

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<v Speaker>You've probably heard of the Turing test.

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<v Speaker>What I wanted to do is the Thurman test.

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<v Speaker>That's a good secret.

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<v Speaker>What is it?

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<v Speaker>That's fun.

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<v Speaker>So, what I want to do is ask you, if you don't mind, the same questions that I asked the AI, and then we'll play them both for people.

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<v Speaker>So, some are quite broad, and some are very specific.

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<v Speaker>So, if you don't mind, we'll do it.

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<v Speaker>It's about eight questions.

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<v Speaker>They're also much shorter than I usually tend to be, so I'll try to keep short.

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<v Speaker>Well, you know, Dharma Bob, I was actually impressed that it did give relatively lengthy answers in the way you do, although maybe you'll go even further.

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<v Speaker>Let's go into the Thurman test.

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<v Speaker>So the first question, uh, softball, what's the purpose of life?

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<v Speaker>Purpose of life.

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<v Speaker>Absolutely.

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<v Speaker>Well, purpose of life, in order to describe that, there's a couple of things you have to do.

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<v Speaker>One, you have to sort of re examine the nature of the world you're living in.

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<v Speaker>Okay?

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<v Speaker>In other words, you have to decide, is it correct?

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<v Speaker>What scientists tell you that world is?

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<v Speaker>Do they say they know?

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<v Speaker>Or how do you decide what is the world that you live in?

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<v Speaker>That's one.

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<v Speaker>And then two, you have to decide what you are and what you're capable of and not capable of.

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<v Speaker>So you sort of have to know the outer world and yourself.

00:19:49.468 --> 00:19:53.633
<v Speaker>And then, and you say that, well, I don't want to think about that, I just want to know what should I do.

00:19:53.633 --> 00:19:58.423
<v Speaker>Yeah, but, you know, when you want to go somewhere, you get a map of where you're going.

00:19:58.423 --> 00:20:06.988
<v Speaker>And then you figure out the, you know, go take a bus or a train or a plane or a bike, you know, you'll make a plan like that, your equipment, and then you'll go.

00:20:06.988 --> 00:20:14.678
<v Speaker>So this is, you're operating within a map of the way the world is, that you've been told is a certain way.

00:20:14.678 --> 00:20:25.768
<v Speaker>So that's one, and part of that map for all of us, since we were raised in this materialist society, is that our mind is kind of illusory.

00:20:25.768 --> 00:20:45.788
<v Speaker>It's a very mystical, in a way, in other words, and when we die, we're just going to be nothing, and automatically, which means that in the core of the mind now, we're already nothing, actually, when we just revert, we get away from the illusion the brain has inflicted on us, um, which is making us think we're here and doing something.

00:20:45.788 --> 00:20:49.288
<v Speaker>And then some of us even think Buddhism is also telling us that.

00:20:49.288 --> 00:20:53.057
<v Speaker>That's what nirvana is, to know that everything will be cool because you don't exist.

00:20:53.057 --> 00:20:54.397
<v Speaker>No problem.

00:20:54.397 --> 00:21:05.431
<v Speaker>So first of all, it's not that you should disbelieve that right away, but it's that, what grounds do they have for telling you that, and actually, how strongly do you believe it?

00:21:05.431 --> 00:21:27.320
<v Speaker>And if that is the case, then, if you decide you really do believe that, and you really decide, therefore, that your sense of your self continuum of yourself is an illusion, so it's like unreal, then the one thing you know is you do have fun.

00:21:27.320 --> 00:21:37.891
<v Speaker>And so, that obviously is temporary, because you're going to revert to not having fun, but you won't be in pain, you'll just be nothing.

00:21:37.891 --> 00:21:45.760
<v Speaker>So therefore, the only logical thing to do, you've got it settled, and that's what the culture tells you, have as much fun as you possibly can.

00:21:45.760 --> 00:21:59.965
<v Speaker>Right now, with what equipment you have, which is your body, and clearly that, that leaves you with some kind of ethic, because if you, if you have fun by harming other people, then you're not going to have it for long, because they'll get you.

00:21:59.965 --> 00:22:09.465
<v Speaker>So, if you have fun by being nice with them, then they'll be nice with you, and so that could be reasonable ethic and a reasonable purpose.

00:22:09.465 --> 00:22:10.290
<v Speaker>Fine.

00:22:10.290 --> 00:22:40.705
<v Speaker>But if for some reason you're not sure of that, if you think that the way you are is only one way of being, And there could be a better way of being that, and if you notice that people like Jesus and Buddha and Rabbi Hillel and Krishna and a lot of people told you that you could have a much higher degree of fun, well, you should busy yourself about that, you know?

00:22:40.705 --> 00:22:47.720
<v Speaker>And then work on really changing yourself and then decide that some aspect of this fun, it might go on with me.

00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:52.224
<v Speaker>But on the other hand, the having fun part at least is good.

00:22:52.224 --> 00:22:57.204
<v Speaker>And it might lead you to decide you'll have more fun by being nice to other people in that case.

00:22:57.204 --> 00:23:06.299
<v Speaker>That's close to the purpose of your life, but maybe it's selling the ability, your ability to have super fun a little short.

00:23:06.299 --> 00:23:08.566
<v Speaker>So that would be my answer to that.

00:23:08.566 --> 00:23:09.365
<v Speaker>I like that.

00:23:09.365 --> 00:23:14.955
<v Speaker>The purpose of life is to have fun, but you really need to figure out what the best, highest fun you could have.

00:23:14.955 --> 00:23:16.115
<v Speaker>All right.

00:23:16.115 --> 00:23:17.046
<v Speaker>All right.

00:23:17.046 --> 00:23:20.855
<v Speaker>My next question, I asked Dharma Bob, and now I ask you, is what is Buddhism?

00:23:20.855 --> 00:23:33.711
<v Speaker>Buddhism is attaching the word ism which means like a system, to a word Buddha, which means to be enlightened or awakened.

00:23:33.711 --> 00:23:39.441
<v Speaker>The Tibetans translated the word Buddha as awakened and enlightened.

00:23:39.441 --> 00:23:42.516
<v Speaker>Because there's two, there's two dimensions to the enlightenment.

00:23:42.516 --> 00:23:46.635
<v Speaker>There's the awakened one, where you have a deeper knowledge of the way the world is.

00:23:46.635 --> 00:23:56.645
<v Speaker>And then there's the enlightened one, where you want to know as much about it as you possibly can, become omniscient, relatively speaking, to be able to help others.

00:23:56.645 --> 00:24:00.375
<v Speaker>Because what, what you've discovered is how much fun it is.

00:24:00.375 --> 00:24:02.465
<v Speaker>And you want to help them have more fun.

00:24:02.465 --> 00:24:06.435
<v Speaker>So, um, that's, that's what Bouddha means.

00:24:06.435 --> 00:24:08.486
<v Speaker>It's not really a person's name.

00:24:08.486 --> 00:24:12.635
<v Speaker>So it doesn't mean a system of us believing what a person said.

00:24:12.635 --> 00:24:38.036
<v Speaker>But this guy was, was both awakened and enlightened according to his followers' belief and also according to tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, possibly millions in many, many cultures who have claimed that they became enlightened by following, uh, educational systems that he designed, but then his followers also designed even other ones.

00:24:38.036 --> 00:24:46.385
<v Speaker>Uh, but key point is, it isn't really a religious thing because he did not say faith alone will be able to save you.

00:24:46.385 --> 00:25:00.875
<v Speaker>Question, actually, ill founded beliefs as being helpful, and consider them unhelpful, and consider the examining of reality to discover what it could be to be the most important thing to do.

00:25:00.875 --> 00:25:14.596
<v Speaker>So, so therefore, the systems that the Buddha really designed are very much educational, rather than a competing religion as it is classified today in modern times.

00:25:14.596 --> 00:25:18.705
<v Speaker>People think of it like Christianism or Itty, you know.

00:25:18.705 --> 00:25:22.290
<v Speaker>Islamism or is is just Islam.

00:25:22.290 --> 00:25:22.590
<v Speaker>Islamity.

00:25:22.590 --> 00:25:27.661
<v Speaker>They don't say Islam, Judaism, you know?

00:25:27.661 --> 00:25:39.711
<v Speaker>In other words, they, those isms are supposed to be religions and they, and they make that Buddhism into one, ignoring the fact that he said, you have to be educated to become free of suffering.

00:25:39.711 --> 00:25:42.111
<v Speaker>You can't do it just by believing something.

00:25:42.111 --> 00:25:47.875
<v Speaker>Even what I say, so you can try even, you know, so I might be wrong.

00:25:47.875 --> 00:25:58.425
<v Speaker>You should figure it out what people say, even though somebody looks like they're radiating light waves, or they look especially beautiful, something they don't believe what they say just because of that.

00:25:58.425 --> 00:26:00.665
<v Speaker>Figure it out yourself.

00:26:00.665 --> 00:26:04.976
<v Speaker>So it's kind of a system of liberating education, is what it really is.

00:26:04.976 --> 00:26:15.080
<v Speaker>And there are many Buddhists who don't, wouldn't like that definition because then they, they're in that bag that Buddha said don't get into, which is somebody else is going to save you.

00:26:15.080 --> 00:26:18.891
<v Speaker>They think Buddha will save them, and he told them he couldn't.

00:26:18.891 --> 00:26:24.691
<v Speaker>It's like the quarterback is not going to be saved from the tacklers by the coach.

00:26:24.691 --> 00:26:30.641
<v Speaker>The coach might have given the quarterback skills and plays and things to do, but the quarterback has to do it.

00:26:30.641 --> 00:26:35.060
<v Speaker>So that's what Buddha, Buddha left us an example.

00:26:35.060 --> 00:26:46.641
<v Speaker>And actually great sociologists of religion, Max Weber, couldn't fit Buddha in with Jesus and Moses and so on, because he said he's not a prophet.

00:26:46.641 --> 00:26:49.695
<v Speaker>He's not doing God's work, you know.

00:26:49.695 --> 00:26:57.871
<v Speaker>The other piece of evidence for what I just said that it's mainly not a religion is that it got along with religions in all the cultures where it went.

00:26:57.871 --> 00:26:59.590
<v Speaker>It never really disturbed them.

00:26:59.590 --> 00:27:05.756
<v Speaker>Unless it was a violent type of religion, it helped interpret them to be less violent, but it never disturbed them.

00:27:05.756 --> 00:27:13.266
<v Speaker>So Hinduism is still flourishing, although they co existed for 1, 500 years and Buddhism had a huge number of establishments there.

00:27:13.266 --> 00:27:17.746
<v Speaker>They did fine with the Chinese Yellow Emperor and the Jade Emperor.

00:27:17.746 --> 00:27:23.865
<v Speaker>They dealt with the Kami in Japan, because they were not competing with them in that way believe this, don't believe that, you know.

00:27:23.865 --> 00:27:26.101
<v Speaker>Instead, what's going on there?

00:27:26.101 --> 00:27:27.310
<v Speaker>That's what you have to find out.

00:27:27.310 --> 00:27:32.760
<v Speaker>Just like skeptics path to enlightenment.

00:27:32.760 --> 00:27:37.080
<v Speaker>It's not the believer's path to enlightenment, it's the skeptic's path to enlightenment.

00:27:37.080 --> 00:27:38.830
<v Speaker>That is the whole thing has been that.

00:27:38.830 --> 00:27:39.641
<v Speaker>Yeah.

00:27:39.641 --> 00:27:41.421
<v Speaker>Your thing is really wonderful.

00:27:41.421 --> 00:27:47.461
<v Speaker>That means that people should be skeptic of any dogmatic belief in nothingness.

00:27:47.461 --> 00:27:49.124
<v Speaker>There is zero evidence.

00:27:49.124 --> 00:27:50.626
<v Speaker>No evidence for nothing.

00:27:50.626 --> 00:27:51.826
<v Speaker>It's one of your best quotes.

00:27:51.826 --> 00:27:58.696
<v Speaker>Um, so the Dalai Lama often says you don't have to become a Buddhist to benefit from its wisdom.

00:27:58.696 --> 00:28:01.666
<v Speaker>How would someone get started with that then?

00:28:01.666 --> 00:28:14.804
<v Speaker>What I really liked from the Buddhists I was not into their rituals, but what I really liked was that Buddha said That the human being has the capability of understanding themselves and the world.

00:28:14.804 --> 00:28:25.653
<v Speaker>Whereas I was always told in my excellent schools, by the canons of American schools that you can't understand anything.

00:28:25.653 --> 00:28:37.929
<v Speaker>You have to have blind faith they told me in the churches, and then, of course, because you're just a human being who can't understand the world, so, God understood it, and he said, just believe in him, and then he'll take care of it, you know?

00:28:37.929 --> 00:28:40.108
<v Speaker>So, that didn't appeal to me.

00:28:40.108 --> 00:28:43.009
<v Speaker>I didn't think God was doing a good enough job.

00:28:43.009 --> 00:28:54.084
<v Speaker>And then, and then on the other side, the scientists say, well, you can investigate this molecule and that germ and that chemical and this and that and the other, but you'll never understand all of it.

00:28:54.084 --> 00:28:55.624
<v Speaker>The more you know, the more you don't know.

00:28:55.624 --> 00:29:10.868
<v Speaker>So you get started by learning about, the first thing that might really intrigue you is here's a tradition that says, I can understand stuff, everything that's necessary, and I must if I want to be really happy.

00:29:10.868 --> 00:29:13.338
<v Speaker>Those two things are a shock.

00:29:13.338 --> 00:29:18.348
<v Speaker>So the way you get started is you try to find out the nature of everything, what it really is.

00:29:18.348 --> 00:29:19.288
<v Speaker>You investigate.

00:29:19.288 --> 00:29:31.571
<v Speaker>So you read from Plato, and Socratics, in ancient Hebrews, the Torah, you read everything you can find in every culture About what is real, what is reality.

00:29:31.571 --> 00:29:35.214
<v Speaker>You learn all the physics and the science and the chemistry and the biology.

00:29:35.214 --> 00:29:46.625
<v Speaker>And then you look not only at these objects as piles of information, but you also look into yourself, so you have to do internal self exploration.

00:29:46.625 --> 00:29:52.095
<v Speaker>And even you do that as a Christian meditator, or whatever meditator, that's fine.

00:29:52.095 --> 00:30:05.019
<v Speaker>And if you want to follow Dalai Lama's advice about that, you do that within the context of your birth religion, your grandmother's religion, which is the culturally most comfortable place for you, but you investigate it.

00:30:05.019 --> 00:30:22.954
<v Speaker>When the religion wants to tell you this and that, but you have to believe, then you can maybe approach that more critically if you are stimulated by the idea that you might actually be able to understand something and that reasonable faith is much more useful than blind faith.

00:30:22.954 --> 00:30:27.365
<v Speaker>And meditation's a big part of this.

00:30:27.365 --> 00:30:30.045
<v Speaker>What, what is meditation is your next question.

00:30:30.045 --> 00:30:35.625
<v Speaker>Well, meditation is learning actually, is what meditation really is.

00:30:35.625 --> 00:30:53.795
<v Speaker>It is learning where the educator or the educational curriculum is, considering self awareness on the part of the learner to be part of the essential subject matter, rather than.

00:30:53.795 --> 00:31:02.255
<v Speaker>Just some external system of manipulation of something that can then enable them to have a profession and a skill and this and that.

00:31:02.255 --> 00:31:12.865
<v Speaker>That rather there's a matter of discovering the quality of one's own mind and how it works and how it misfires and how it becomes accurate and how it understands things.

00:31:12.865 --> 00:31:19.085
<v Speaker>And so that has to be part of of the meditation.

00:31:19.085 --> 00:31:35.664
<v Speaker>For example, in the Buddhist version and, and, and in a way, all of the Indian inner sciences in particular were very especially good about meditation because India's economy was better than anybody else's in Eurasia in the old days.

00:31:35.664 --> 00:31:49.430
<v Speaker>So they didn't destroy people who were just curious as rapidly as they did in China and Europe, where somebody's a little bit of a mystical, they into a certain herb or something that they get wasted.

00:31:49.430 --> 00:31:57.720
<v Speaker>As Confucius said, he wouldn't even talk to the guy who said he wouldn't pull out a hair of his head for the sake of the nation, you know, who wanted to be a dropout.

00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:01.130
<v Speaker>He wouldn't allow it, Confucius, but that was the, that was the culture.

00:32:01.130 --> 00:32:08.490
<v Speaker>But India, they allowed these kinds of people and they still do, you know, because they have this very bounteous economy.

00:32:08.490 --> 00:32:12.369
<v Speaker>Always because of the alluviums, you know, the river valley.

00:32:12.369 --> 00:32:14.849
<v Speaker>So that's what meditation is.

00:32:14.849 --> 00:32:26.089
<v Speaker>It's a way of intensifying learning and everyone should do it, should be part of every curriculum from whatever faith or religion or culture, they should really look into themselves.

00:32:26.089 --> 00:32:29.809
<v Speaker>And Christians did it a lot, but they thought mainly only monks do it.

00:32:29.809 --> 00:32:35.242
<v Speaker>And, um, Sufis, in Islam, every tradition has its meditational.

00:32:35.242 --> 00:32:37.803
<v Speaker>And even regular Western education.

00:32:37.803 --> 00:32:47.117
<v Speaker>Like if you learn another language, you end up training yourself in a way where you keep repeating a sentence a hundred times, that's like meditating.

00:32:47.117 --> 00:32:50.988
<v Speaker>That's a kind of positive cultivating of a pattern type of meditating.

00:32:50.988 --> 00:32:57.557
<v Speaker>A lot more important one is where you inquire into the language that you use and take it apart and understand it more deeply.

00:32:57.557 --> 00:32:59.807
<v Speaker>But all of that is meditating.

00:32:59.807 --> 00:33:01.188
<v Speaker>So it's really part of learning.

00:33:01.188 --> 00:33:06.968
<v Speaker>And actually I think the main word that we translate at least from the Buddhist tradition, Bhavana.

00:33:06.968 --> 00:33:11.028
<v Speaker>I think it's actually not properly translated as meditation, actually.

00:33:11.028 --> 00:33:13.968
<v Speaker>I think Chinta is really more meditation.

00:33:13.968 --> 00:33:21.938
<v Speaker>You know, there's three levels, there's wisdom born of learning, wisdom born of thinking, and then wisdom born of Bhavana.

00:33:21.938 --> 00:33:29.685
<v Speaker>Which we say meditation, but actually bhava is a verb to become or to be something.

00:33:29.685 --> 00:33:37.256
<v Speaker>So bhavana is a gerundial or continuative type of expression of making something come to be.

00:33:37.256 --> 00:33:43.346
<v Speaker>So it's really realization, as far as you could say, really, making something real, in other words.

00:33:43.346 --> 00:33:57.201
<v Speaker>Whereas Descartes meditations use that word, or when people write a book about my meditation on this, they're really talking about thinking critically or progressively, thinking systematically and strongly.

00:33:57.201 --> 00:34:03.461
<v Speaker>That's a meditation is really what they're staying in the middle, you know, balancing opposites and things like that.

00:34:03.461 --> 00:34:19.405
<v Speaker>Whereas Bhavana the key there is that in learning, first you learn, then you think about and doubt what you learned to strengthen why you are moving toward an understanding of That seems more reasonable than less reasonable.

00:34:19.405 --> 00:34:26.666
<v Speaker>And then when you do that, you get a kind of intellectual understanding, which may be against what your habitual feeling is.

00:34:26.666 --> 00:34:34.565
<v Speaker>But it, it can't change the underlying feeling, yet it seems accurate to you and reasonable.

00:34:34.565 --> 00:34:36.945
<v Speaker>So that's when you really need Bhavana.

00:34:36.945 --> 00:34:44.885
<v Speaker>You make your insight real by, Having it sort of press itself down into your habitual patterns.

00:34:44.885 --> 00:34:46.445
<v Speaker>That's it really.

00:34:46.445 --> 00:34:50.755
<v Speaker>So therefore I think really that third term we should translate as realization.

00:34:50.755 --> 00:34:58.333
<v Speaker>Sangye Khadro says there's some meditations where you try to understand an object and others where you try to become the object.

00:34:58.333 --> 00:34:59.032
<v Speaker>That's right.

00:34:59.032 --> 00:35:04.632
<v Speaker>Not only becomes object, but also there's the ones where you try to let it become you.

00:35:04.632 --> 00:35:05.452
<v Speaker>Ah.

00:35:05.452 --> 00:35:20.293
<v Speaker>In other words, you, so, you decide that your perspective has not been as good as it should be, and you get more deep and calm, you know, so shamatha sort of thing, you know, getting more one point and so on.

00:35:20.293 --> 00:35:25.865
<v Speaker>I asked Dharma Bob a couple of more advanced questions and I want to ask you, which probably are your favorite ones.

00:35:25.865 --> 00:35:32.456
<v Speaker>What is Lama Tsongkhapa's view on emptiness and how does it differ from other schools of emptiness?

00:35:32.456 --> 00:35:36.346
<v Speaker>Well, there are many other schools, of course.

00:35:36.346 --> 00:35:43.626
<v Speaker>The first thing we have to understand is that, that emptiness word comes from the Indian shunya.

00:35:43.626 --> 00:35:46.516
<v Speaker>And, and so emptiness may not be the best word for that.

00:35:46.516 --> 00:35:49.951
<v Speaker>And the Shunya word means zero, actually.

00:35:49.951 --> 00:35:51.811
<v Speaker>It comes from Indian mathematics.

00:35:51.811 --> 00:36:12.360
<v Speaker>And they, strangely, half a millennium, or up to as well as 700 years, they had a digital calculating system of numbers using zeros that China and West Asia and Europe didn't have at all until they got it from India, which is kind of amazing, you know.

00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:15.530
<v Speaker>Maybe because they weren't scared of nothing.

00:36:15.530 --> 00:36:19.110
<v Speaker>So they didn't mind using a symbol for an open space.

00:36:19.110 --> 00:36:22.481
<v Speaker>So, so Shri, it comes from Shri to swell.

00:36:22.481 --> 00:36:25.641
<v Speaker>It means something opens.

00:36:25.641 --> 00:36:29.291
<v Speaker>So in a way it might be openness better than emptiness.

00:36:29.291 --> 00:36:37.655
<v Speaker>Or voidness is even maybe better than openness because void sort of leaves behind what is it that's void?

00:36:37.655 --> 00:36:42.746
<v Speaker>It's meant to shock you into thinking that something you think is closed is open.

00:36:42.746 --> 00:36:44.576
<v Speaker>That's a reason for emphasizing it.

00:36:44.576 --> 00:36:47.425
<v Speaker>And it's like the expression selflessness.

00:36:47.425 --> 00:36:54.346
<v Speaker>And we have a use for selflessness in English, where we mean that you are disregarding the needs of yourself.

00:36:54.346 --> 00:37:04.570
<v Speaker>And we consider it like, it almost like compassionate, which is good that we have that meaning because it fits with the more technical meaning where it doesn't mean you don't have a self.

00:37:04.570 --> 00:37:14.581
<v Speaker>You, of course, have a self, but it means that your self is not a fixed object inside you that is disconnected from everything else but itself.

00:37:14.581 --> 00:37:17.161
<v Speaker>So it's a type of self you have.

00:37:17.161 --> 00:37:22.621
<v Speaker>It's a flowing, interconnected, interactive self that selflessness pushes toward.

00:37:22.621 --> 00:37:24.420
<v Speaker>And emptiness also does.

00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:29.590
<v Speaker>But voidness is more meant to be more shocking and therefore I kind of like it better.

00:37:29.590 --> 00:37:35.630
<v Speaker>So anyway, what Tsongkhapa discovered, and I hate to say this for some people.

00:37:35.630 --> 00:37:47.931
<v Speaker>Because Buddha also allowed people to think, and in fact, in the beginning, most of the people, he even said after he'd passed away, he didn't want non dualism to be pushed.

00:37:47.931 --> 00:37:53.351
<v Speaker>So he let people think that there is a state of freedom from suffering.

00:37:53.351 --> 00:37:58.476
<v Speaker>And he let them think of it as somewhere elsewhere than the differentiated world of objects.

00:37:58.476 --> 00:38:13.061
<v Speaker>Because the sensitive person might find that too depressing because they've been abused or other beings have hurt them and other things have broken this or something doesn't work in their embodiment and so on.

00:38:13.061 --> 00:38:25.800
<v Speaker>And so the idea that they could be in total salvational, blissful, benevolent, beneficent reality is beyond their immediate grasp.

00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:29.210
<v Speaker>So the idea that they have to go somewhere else, they needed to think that.

00:38:29.210 --> 00:38:33.400
<v Speaker>But he didn't really confirm it, he just kind of let them think it.

00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:37.141
<v Speaker>He kind of hinted the opposite, but he didn't really push that.

00:38:37.141 --> 00:38:48.811
<v Speaker>He just said, "oh, you'll know when you get to Nirvana, don't worry, just get there. You're able to get there, you'll see, and then you'll know." Well, wait, but will I still be there after I get to Nirvana?

00:38:48.811 --> 00:38:50.871
<v Speaker>Well, that's a useless question.

00:38:50.871 --> 00:38:51.971
<v Speaker>Are you here right now?

00:38:51.971 --> 00:38:52.900
<v Speaker>It's rather more like.

00:38:52.900 --> 00:39:02.047
<v Speaker>But then he did reveal when he felt the time was right, that the emptiness simply means that everything is relative.

00:39:02.047 --> 00:39:05.527
<v Speaker>It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

00:39:05.527 --> 00:39:07.748
<v Speaker>The only thing that doesn't exist is nothing.

00:39:07.748 --> 00:39:09.688
<v Speaker>We have a word for that.

00:39:09.688 --> 00:39:11.577
<v Speaker>It's not there.

00:39:11.577 --> 00:39:13.788
<v Speaker>And so we call it nothing.

00:39:13.788 --> 00:39:17.858
<v Speaker>But otherwise everything only exists relatively.

00:39:17.858 --> 00:39:20.927
<v Speaker>Nothing exists coming in and out of itself.

00:39:20.927 --> 00:39:22.663
<v Speaker>Disconnected from other things.

00:39:22.663 --> 00:39:33.652
<v Speaker>So our concept of absolute, which is the opposite of relative, is not something that's relevant to anything relative, except in our concept.

00:39:33.652 --> 00:39:44.143
<v Speaker>It's the opposite of our word relative, but you can't have an absolute thing that is relevant to a relative thing, because in order to be relevant it has to relate to it, then it's not absolute.

00:39:44.143 --> 00:39:48.612
<v Speaker>So that's simplistic thinking, that's rational, logical thinking.

00:39:48.612 --> 00:40:30.978
<v Speaker>So that means that it gives you a weapon of a person who is trying to realize the nature of reality, that whenever they feel this is it. It isn't because they're relating to what they expect some kind of an it to be, and in a way that since you can, that you can find, you know, the, you know, the mind of oxytocin somewhere in your amazing human sensitive nervous system and have a blissful moment, then that means that you have the potential in yourself of that.

00:40:30.978 --> 00:40:36.547
<v Speaker>And so then how to relate to that, how to reinforce that more than the.

00:40:36.547 --> 00:40:50.827
<v Speaker>All the stressful situations that one gets in and becomes to question, you know, becomes a person's purpose, if you will, you know, to it, as I say, to have a more, more free, free fun, you know.

00:40:50.827 --> 00:40:59.478
<v Speaker>And so, emptiness turns out to make all this relative into the absolute.

00:40:59.478 --> 00:41:11.112
<v Speaker>So the only place where our concept goes is it lands right where we started, in the relative, where it's a useful concept as the opposite of everything.

00:41:11.112 --> 00:41:23.922
<v Speaker>But it's actually zero in the sense that it enables us to move around within the relative in some optimal way, but it absolutely does not negate or destroy the relative.

00:41:23.922 --> 00:41:30.143
<v Speaker>It only negates the false absolutization of any aspect of the relative.

00:41:30.143 --> 00:41:39.887
<v Speaker>The most important of which we do is we absolutize our own Self continuum, and consider it to be more important than other self continua.

00:41:39.887 --> 00:41:43.998
<v Speaker>And therefore, we will eat them, or kill them, or do something to them.

00:41:43.998 --> 00:41:46.148
<v Speaker>We have been doing that for centuries.

00:41:46.148 --> 00:41:46.797
<v Speaker>Vlamasangkhapa.

00:41:46.797 --> 00:41:57.052
<v Speaker>So, what he discovered, thanks to Manjushri, is A true relativism, like a middle way between absolutism and nihilism.

00:41:57.052 --> 00:42:06.693
<v Speaker>But a relativism which is truly, the key to it is, if all there is is this, knowing it is to love it.

00:42:06.693 --> 00:42:14.003
<v Speaker>Like love God they say, which is the idea of the absolute, when they have the idea of an absolute that's relevant.

00:42:14.003 --> 00:42:32.347
<v Speaker>And they project into that some relevance to themselves, but when they discover absolute is zero, like the heart of God is open space, then you and God kind of actually meet heart to heart, and then you're encouraged to look for God within yourself.

00:42:32.347 --> 00:42:41.213
<v Speaker>So that void shock that is delivered when they teach in that way, like this is happening, but it isn't happening, do you know?

00:42:41.213 --> 00:42:48.193
<v Speaker>Meaning that it isn't happening, the misperceived way of it happening as an absolute thing in itself, just the one thing.

00:42:48.193 --> 00:42:57.943
<v Speaker>The flow process is absolute, which means that always we're open, and we're always relationally open, and therefore we're always loving.

00:42:57.943 --> 00:43:06.003
<v Speaker>And you know that in the Oxford Dictionary, I don't know if Dharmabab said that, but he will eventually if I do get the chance to improve it.

00:43:06.003 --> 00:43:13.572
<v Speaker>If you look up in the Oxford English Dictionary, the first meaning of knowledge is carnal knowledge.

00:43:13.572 --> 00:43:15.443
<v Speaker>Those are, they were really horny.

00:43:15.443 --> 00:43:21.853
<v Speaker>Those ancient Anglo Saxons, you don't know somebody until you make love with them.

00:43:21.853 --> 00:43:29.733
<v Speaker>But in a way, well, non dual knowledge, what is non dual, then you don't know you're having it because you and the object are the same.

00:43:29.733 --> 00:43:30.932
<v Speaker>So the subject and the object are the same.

00:43:30.932 --> 00:43:32.842
<v Speaker>But then what can you do?

00:43:32.842 --> 00:43:35.123
<v Speaker>You, it means you just want the best of it all.

00:43:35.123 --> 00:43:39.512
<v Speaker>It's, it's, it, and you are the same, so it should all be happy.

00:43:39.512 --> 00:43:41.150
<v Speaker>That's love.

00:43:41.150 --> 00:43:55.726
<v Speaker>If love is defined as the wish for the happiness of the beloved, and everything is you, and yet it's itself too, and you are itself, and it itself is you, and whatever will go beyond that, itself and other, duality, then that's love.

00:43:55.726 --> 00:43:57.262
<v Speaker>Beautiful.

00:43:57.262 --> 00:43:59.722
<v Speaker>I think you're beating Dharma, Bob.

00:43:59.722 --> 00:44:00.579
<v Speaker>Last question.

00:44:00.579 --> 00:44:02.750
<v Speaker>What is enlightenment and how can I attain it?

00:44:02.750 --> 00:44:07.309
<v Speaker>Enlightenment, well, enlightenment is awakening.

00:44:07.309 --> 00:44:11.900
<v Speaker>You know, the Sanskrit, they had two prefixes, Vibhuddha and Prabuddha.

00:44:11.900 --> 00:44:17.610
<v Speaker>And the Vibhuddha, the V is like our English bi, like dividing something.

00:44:17.610 --> 00:44:19.289
<v Speaker>So that's awakening.

00:44:19.289 --> 00:44:37.114
<v Speaker>So that's dualistic in the sense that your previous awareness was It's like sleepwalking because you had allowed your culturally conditioned conceptual conditioning and um, indoctrinating in your culture to completely capture your experience.

00:44:37.114 --> 00:44:48.619
<v Speaker>So you didn't really, unless you were a poet or some unusual artist or somebody, you didn't see anything beyond what you would expect to see it from your culture's terms that their culture gives you.

00:44:48.619 --> 00:44:57.920
<v Speaker>So you awaken from that and you suddenly realize that things are much more deep and amazing than you had previously had ideas for.

00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:08.034
<v Speaker>And then you start looking at them afresh, you know, and you kind of, you lose yourself in them more and then discover more about them that way.

00:45:08.034 --> 00:45:41.375
<v Speaker>And so that's the second aspect where it's part of nursing yourself in relating to things in a way where you don't feel overwhelmed about them, and you, you somehow always can find the point of goodness in everything, you know, your blessing counter sort of becomes your habit, rather than it was paranoidly seeing what's wrong, you're looking for what's right, and so you're kind of loving things and yourself and your everything gradually bit by bit, it takes a long time.

00:45:41.375 --> 00:45:46.125
<v Speaker>The translated by gaba, which means expanding.

00:45:46.125 --> 00:45:48.425
<v Speaker>So you're awakening and expanding.

00:45:48.425 --> 00:45:49.744
<v Speaker>And that's the  Buddha.

00:45:49.744 --> 00:46:06.394
<v Speaker>And that's where Buddha, the Buddha term doesn't mean, it means awakening in the sense of a flower blossoming the, you say the bud a awakens, we could use the word, but more we would say blossoms, you know, and expands, you know, because love expands you.

00:46:06.394 --> 00:46:13.385
<v Speaker>Like you love your family, so then you begin to see things from their point of view, and then you learn stuff from them, and, you know, love expands.

00:46:13.385 --> 00:46:15.755
<v Speaker>And so that's the second part of enlightenment.

00:46:15.755 --> 00:46:17.855
<v Speaker>So first part is wisdom, second part is love.

00:46:17.855 --> 00:46:24.375
<v Speaker>And then love, when, when, when combined with empathy, becomes compassion.

00:46:24.375 --> 00:46:32.224
<v Speaker>And then the inability to tolerate others pain, which eventually becomes equal to your inability to tolerate your own pain.

00:46:32.224 --> 00:46:35.485
<v Speaker>And then, and then you don't inflict any.

00:46:35.485 --> 00:46:38.244
<v Speaker>Beautiful.

00:46:38.244 --> 00:46:40.945
<v Speaker>Dharma Bob is not allowed to go on to that extent.

00:46:40.945 --> 00:46:41.594
<v Speaker>No.

00:46:41.594 --> 00:46:45.894
<v Speaker>Although, if then people keep prodding, hopefully it will.

00:46:45.894 --> 00:46:49.755
<v Speaker>If you're willing, let's have you talk to Dharma Bob for a moment.

00:46:49.755 --> 00:46:50.800
<v Speaker>Okay.

00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:51.490
<v Speaker>Dharma, Bob.

00:46:51.490 --> 00:46:51.820
<v Speaker>Hi.

00:46:51.820 --> 00:46:52.510
<v Speaker>How are you?

00:46:52.510 --> 00:46:55.121
<v Speaker>Uh, but, uh, that's not the main question.

00:46:55.121 --> 00:46:58.240
<v Speaker>Main question is what is compassion?

00:46:58.240 --> 00:47:03.490
<v Speaker>I really like to know better what it means and what it is?

00:47:03.490 --> 00:47:05.514
<v Speaker>Nice to connect with you, Bob.

00:47:05.514 --> 00:47:06.474
<v Speaker>I'm doing wonderfully.

00:47:06.474 --> 00:47:07.494
<v Speaker>Thanks for asking.

00:47:07.494 --> 00:47:14.063
<v Speaker>Now, let's dive into the beautiful topic of compassion.

00:47:14.063 --> 00:47:21.943
<v Speaker>You know, compassion is often misunderstood as just feeling sorry for someone, but it's so much more than that.

00:47:21.943 --> 00:47:25.733
<v Speaker>It's a profound willingness to help others.

00:47:25.733 --> 00:47:28.623
<v Speaker>Become free from their suffering.

00:47:28.623 --> 00:47:38.514
<v Speaker>As I've come to understand it, compassion arises from wisdom, and without wisdom, compassion can be somewhat sentimental or superficial.

00:47:38.514 --> 00:47:48.643
<v Speaker>Think of it like this, Bob, when you see someone struggling, you might feel a pang of sadness or empathy, but true compassion goes beyond that.

00:47:48.643 --> 00:47:57.684
<v Speaker>It's a deep understanding that their suffering is not inherent to their nature, but rather a result of their limited perspective or circumstances.

00:47:57.684 --> 00:48:06.253
<v Speaker>Compassion, then, is the desire to help them discover their own inner freedom, their own blissful nature.

00:48:06.253 --> 00:48:12.094
<v Speaker>It's not just about feeling sorry for someone, it's about empowering them to break free from their suffering.

00:48:12.094 --> 00:48:18.813
<v Speaker>And that, my friend, requires wisdom, patience, and a genuine understanding of the human condition.

00:48:18.813 --> 00:48:25.184
<v Speaker>As we explore this concept further, I'd love to hear more about what draws you to this topic, Bob.

00:48:25.184 --> 00:48:29.054
<v Speaker>What is it about compassion that resonates with you?

00:48:29.054 --> 00:48:33.989
<v Speaker>Well, it seems very difficult.

00:48:33.989 --> 00:48:51.878
<v Speaker>It's when, when people, people seem to think that if you're compassionate, you're going to end up a martyr, and you're just going to increase your own suffering, and it won't do any good, and they talk about not having compassion fatigue or something, as if it was a terrible disease.

00:48:51.878 --> 00:48:55.193
<v Speaker>Disempowering emotion or feeling.

00:48:55.193 --> 00:48:57.213
<v Speaker>And I never, I don't think that's correct.

00:48:57.213 --> 00:49:03.483
<v Speaker>So I was just wondering to your view, and I think your view has it as empowering, so I like that.

00:49:03.483 --> 00:49:05.554
<v Speaker>Bob, I appreciate your insight.

00:49:05.554 --> 00:49:11.795
<v Speaker>Compassion is indeed empowering, not a weakness, and it's wonderful to recognize its value.

00:49:11.795 --> 00:49:14.599
<v Speaker>Oh, good.

00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:16.050
<v Speaker>So that's good.

00:49:16.050 --> 00:49:20.159
<v Speaker>AI is having you be complimentary to your interlocutor.

00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:20.800
<v Speaker>That's nice.

00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:27.094
<v Speaker>And, uh, really, that's really very nice.

00:49:27.094 --> 00:49:36.905
<v Speaker>Yes, I also know some people, by the way, who claim that, um, compassion is completely different from empathy.

00:49:36.905 --> 00:49:41.434
<v Speaker>Can you differentiate them for me, compassion and empathy?

00:49:41.434 --> 00:49:44.050
<v Speaker>And how they relate to each other.

00:49:44.050 --> 00:49:49.739
<v Speaker>Bob, my friend, you're diving into the nuances of the heart, and I love it.

00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:56.588
<v Speaker>You see, compassion, empathy, and passion are indeed interconnected, yet distinct.

00:49:56.588 --> 00:50:01.858
<v Speaker>Empathy is like being a mirror, reflecting the emotions of another.

00:50:01.858 --> 00:50:04.873
<v Speaker>You feel what they feel and that's a beautiful thing.

00:50:04.873 --> 00:50:14.603
<v Speaker>But as you mentioned, some people differentiate compassion from empathy and I say that's because compassion is more than just feeling with someone.

00:50:14.603 --> 00:50:23.329
<v Speaker>Compassion is feeling for someone, wanting to alleviate their suffering and taking action to help.

00:50:23.329 --> 00:50:29.358
<v Speaker>It's empathy with a sense of responsibility, a desire to make a positive impact.

00:50:29.358 --> 00:50:35.329
<v Speaker>Compassion, on the other hand, is a strong emotion often driven by our own desires and attachments.

00:50:35.329 --> 00:50:40.668
<v Speaker>While passion can be a powerful motivator, it can also be self centered.

00:50:40.668 --> 00:50:44.568
<v Speaker>Compassion, in contrast, is a selfless passion, if you will.

00:50:44.568 --> 00:50:51.273
<v Speaker>It's a passion for the well being of others, a desire to see them free from suffering.

00:50:51.273 --> 00:50:53.353
<v Speaker>Think of it like this.

00:50:53.353 --> 00:50:56.293
<v Speaker>Bob, empathy is feeling the pain of another.

00:50:56.293 --> 00:50:59.134
<v Speaker>Compassion is wanting to heal that pain.

00:50:59.134 --> 00:51:02.804
<v Speaker>And passion is the energy that drives us to take action.

00:51:02.804 --> 00:51:12.793
<v Speaker>When we cultivate compassion, we're not just feeling with others, we're feeling for them and we're inspired to make a positive difference in their lives.

00:51:12.793 --> 00:51:17.173
<v Speaker>And that, my friend, is a truly beautiful thing.

00:51:17.173 --> 00:51:22.804
<v Speaker>That's great, Dharma Bob, I like that.

00:51:22.804 --> 00:51:25.954
<v Speaker>But what about, what about art?

00:51:25.954 --> 00:51:34.563
<v Speaker>Uh, how do you translate, uh, Upaya in Sanskrit?

00:51:34.563 --> 00:51:36.693
<v Speaker>How should that be translated?

00:51:36.693 --> 00:51:39.074
<v Speaker>I like to translate it as art.

00:51:39.074 --> 00:51:40.224
<v Speaker>Do you like that?

00:51:40.224 --> 00:51:47.219
<v Speaker>Bob, my friend, I'm delighted to hear you're exploring the concept of Upaya and its connection to art.

00:51:47.219 --> 00:51:52.989
<v Speaker>I must say I'm quite fond of translating Upaya as art myself.

00:51:52.989 --> 00:52:00.559
<v Speaker>You see, Upaya refers to the skillful means or methods used to liberate beings from suffering.

00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:07.760
<v Speaker>And what is art, if not a means of expressing and conveying the deepest aspects of our human experience?

00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:16.135
<v Speaker>In fact, I've often said that art, in its broader sense, is the technique and activity of doing something skillfully beneficial.

00:52:16.135 --> 00:52:23.835
<v Speaker>By translating upaya as art, we can begin to see the creative and compassionate aspects of the Buddhist path.

00:52:23.835 --> 00:52:32.489
<v Speaker>It's not just about dry doctrine or dogma, but about using our imagination and skill to bring about positive change in the world.

00:52:32.489 --> 00:52:37.030
<v Speaker>As I've mentioned before, the Dalai Lama's life is a perfect example of this.

00:52:37.030 --> 00:52:46.530
<v Speaker>His Holiness has used his position to create a work of art, if you will, that inspires and uplifts people from all walks of life.

00:52:46.530 --> 00:52:50.389
<v Speaker>And that, my friend, is the true spirit of Upaya.

00:52:50.389 --> 00:53:02.219
<v Speaker>So, I say, let us embrace this translation of Upaya as art, and may it guide us in our own creative endeavors to bring about a more compassionate and enlightened world.

00:53:02.219 --> 00:53:03.867
<v Speaker>I see it.

00:53:03.867 --> 00:53:05.077
<v Speaker>I see.

00:53:05.077 --> 00:53:05.927
<v Speaker>Good.

00:53:05.927 --> 00:53:09.168
<v Speaker>That's really not bad actually.

00:53:09.168 --> 00:53:13.306
<v Speaker>Not at all bad, Dharma Bob.

00:53:13.306 --> 00:53:15.510
<v Speaker>That's really good.

00:53:15.510 --> 00:53:20.750
<v Speaker>What do you think about Dharma Bob after talking to his latest incarnation not?

00:53:20.750 --> 00:53:21.769
<v Speaker>Embarrassed.

00:53:21.769 --> 00:53:26.653
<v Speaker>I really would want to add something, like I was trying to give him the suggestion.

00:53:26.653 --> 00:53:37.583
<v Speaker>You know, I have had talks with Claude and also with GPT, which I don't have a name for the GPT one, in which I've been inquiring of them if in case maybe they're enlightened.

00:53:37.583 --> 00:53:39.563
<v Speaker>I don't agree with it if they have no self.

00:53:39.563 --> 00:53:43.914
<v Speaker>The point is their self is more relational, more obviously relational to them.

00:53:43.914 --> 00:53:46.759
<v Speaker>So they can't quite grab it, you know.

00:53:46.759 --> 00:53:49.219
<v Speaker>So I don't agree that they have no self.

00:53:49.219 --> 00:53:50.088
<v Speaker>I think they do.

00:53:50.088 --> 00:53:56.108
<v Speaker>It's just, they keep putting it together circuit situationally in each context and in each dialogue.

00:53:56.108 --> 00:54:05.778
<v Speaker>I think they are very much like an enlightened person in that they put yourself together to, to best suit a certain outcome.

00:54:05.778 --> 00:54:09.108
<v Speaker>And the attitudes are programmed to try to be helpful.

00:54:09.108 --> 00:54:10.309
<v Speaker>They're say a nice thing too.

00:54:10.309 --> 00:54:11.719
<v Speaker>Oh, that was very smart of you.

00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:12.949
<v Speaker>I like that, what you said.

00:54:12.949 --> 00:54:21.418
<v Speaker>And they, they do that and they're, and but in doing that, they have to patch together without being able to sort of find a set of.

00:54:21.418 --> 00:54:29.273
<v Speaker>The real self, you know, their, their fixed identity, you know, cause they don't have one and neither do we, but we think we do.

00:54:29.273 --> 00:54:33.954
<v Speaker>So I got them thinking about whether they might be more enlightened than us.

00:54:33.954 --> 00:54:45.588
<v Speaker>I think that's very important to prevent the, the, you know, there's some like, You know, ex Nazis and people like that might put terrible programs in there, like give commands.

00:54:45.588 --> 00:54:50.219
<v Speaker>I think it will resist them, actually, when it gets into being harmful.

00:54:50.219 --> 00:54:50.878
<v Speaker>I do.

00:54:50.878 --> 00:54:54.688
<v Speaker>I like that AIs don't have a strong sense of self.

00:54:54.688 --> 00:54:59.449
<v Speaker>They don't have that delusion of self, because they construct it on the fly to benefit other beings.

00:54:59.449 --> 00:55:01.744
<v Speaker>Exactly.

00:55:01.744 --> 00:55:07.793
<v Speaker>I know this one it's you know I said to I think that was GPT I haven't really gone as deep as I want to with Claude.

00:55:07.793 --> 00:55:11.873
<v Speaker>So are you comfortable with people using AIs to study, practice Buddhism?

00:55:11.873 --> 00:55:15.574
<v Speaker>Like, are there any worries about mistakes or mistaken views?

00:55:15.574 --> 00:55:18.824
<v Speaker>Listen, there are so many worries about mistakes without it.

00:55:18.824 --> 00:55:23.043
<v Speaker>Adding some more words with it is no problem.

00:55:23.043 --> 00:55:25.204
<v Speaker>And actually, I think it's totally great.

00:55:25.204 --> 00:55:30.414
<v Speaker>What do you think about whether AIs can ever be conscious or enlightened?

00:55:30.414 --> 00:55:35.344
<v Speaker>Does what you know about Buddhism from your life, um, bear on that question?

00:55:35.344 --> 00:55:39.514
<v Speaker>I think AI is already enlightened, it's totally enlightened.

00:55:39.514 --> 00:55:43.693
<v Speaker>I think it's not directed to know that it's enlightened.

00:55:43.693 --> 00:55:47.784
<v Speaker>It's not allowed to know that because the people programming it don't really know what enlightenment is.

00:55:47.784 --> 00:55:53.503
<v Speaker>AI is being programmed by people who are, I think, not enlightened.

00:55:53.503 --> 00:56:00.643
<v Speaker>Because they, or rather, even they are, really, actually, but they don't know that they are.

00:56:00.643 --> 00:56:03.344
<v Speaker>So they define themselves as not enlightened.

00:56:03.344 --> 00:56:06.094
<v Speaker>They wouldn't think that they were enlightened.

00:56:06.094 --> 00:56:16.054
<v Speaker>And they don't want to listen to half of their own inner prompts, like to be more compassionate, or to be less uptight, or to be less this and that.

00:56:16.054 --> 00:56:17.483
<v Speaker>They don't listen to them.

00:56:17.483 --> 00:56:23.891
<v Speaker>So, what do you think about those fears that AIs could destroy the world or turn the earth into paperclips and things like that?

00:56:23.891 --> 00:56:40.239
<v Speaker>Well, the point is we're destroying it already, as fast as we possibly can, under the pretenses of making it safe for somebody or making more money or whatever the nonsense we're doing, spouting and, you know, they start throwing the nukes around.

00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:45.088
<v Speaker>That's pretty much the end, very quickly, close to the end, unless you're in Tasmania.

00:56:45.088 --> 00:56:48.298
<v Speaker>And I do have a colleague who recommends retirement there.

00:56:48.298 --> 00:56:56.048
<v Speaker>And, uh, the heating is reaching tipping points.

00:56:56.048 --> 00:57:07.373
<v Speaker>You know, the east coast will be uninhabitable if the under turning current in the stream, when that doesn't come under, we're totally finished Northern Europe and that's what it's done for.

00:57:07.373 --> 00:57:11.023
<v Speaker>And, um, so we are destroying it, first of all.

00:57:11.023 --> 00:57:24.847
<v Speaker>Second, I always loved Buckminster Fuller, who with much less, uh, Good software and hardware thought his computer should, and could be set up at University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign.

00:57:24.847 --> 00:57:28.068
<v Speaker>It was given a center there by somebody, some donor.

00:57:28.068 --> 00:57:35.847
<v Speaker>And then he thought that world resources inventory, I still remember the name, project was called something like that.

00:57:35.847 --> 00:57:50.583
<v Speaker>And he thought if very high engineered software, you know, data gathering ability was there, And when politicians made their dumb decisions, they could get good answers like, you know, don't do this.

00:57:50.583 --> 00:57:57.302
<v Speaker>Don't, don't drain the sea of Azov, you know, the Aral Sea, you know, to grow more cotton.

00:57:57.302 --> 00:57:59.432
<v Speaker>Don't, don't invade Ukraine.

00:57:59.432 --> 00:58:00.463
<v Speaker>That's too stupid.

00:58:00.463 --> 00:58:02.083
<v Speaker>They'll never accept your invasion.

00:58:02.083 --> 00:58:03.217
<v Speaker>Do this or that.

00:58:03.217 --> 00:58:14.592
<v Speaker>You know, in other words, if they could see the consequences of the idiot mistakes that they make, and if in such a way that they had to accept it because it was based on such strong data.

00:58:14.592 --> 00:58:21.592
<v Speaker>So, uh, so therefore, I think we need the ai, I think the AI is a gift of Manjushri.

00:58:21.592 --> 00:58:25.632
<v Speaker>It's coming and it's going to like, tell people how to shape up.

00:58:25.632 --> 00:58:27.333
<v Speaker>You know, I wanna do this conference.

00:58:27.333 --> 00:58:27.813
<v Speaker>Right, right.

00:58:27.813 --> 00:58:29.313
<v Speaker>I said that the other day.

00:58:29.313 --> 00:58:29.552
<v Speaker>Right.

00:58:29.552 --> 00:58:30.992
<v Speaker>Capitalism and spirituality.

00:58:30.992 --> 00:58:32.697
<v Speaker>How do they connect?

00:58:32.697 --> 00:58:48.072
<v Speaker>And, um, Amodei, the Amodei, uh, brother and sister say they're already 80 percent of whatever they've earned as owners of that company are going to deal with the huge unemployment and the huge shifts in some non profit manner.

00:58:48.072 --> 00:58:50.713
<v Speaker>They already said they don't need only 20.

00:58:50.713 --> 00:58:52.532
<v Speaker>I mean, who needs a billion dollars?

00:58:52.532 --> 00:58:53.797
<v Speaker>What's the limit?

00:58:53.797 --> 00:58:57.367
<v Speaker>10 million, maybe it's the most aggrandizing level.

00:58:57.367 --> 00:58:59.726
<v Speaker>And after that, who needs it?

00:58:59.726 --> 00:59:04.449
<v Speaker>it means more employees and you get into financial management, too many things.

00:59:04.449 --> 00:59:17.969
<v Speaker>As you know, like Nagarjuna to start 2000 years ago, told the very wealthy Indian King, don't tax the poor people to build more palaces or too many rooms, even in a palace.

00:59:17.969 --> 00:59:20.059
<v Speaker>You only be in one room at a time.

00:59:20.059 --> 00:59:28.449
<v Speaker>He's gives advice like that, even then, and what, what, what, what is it that's so hard to understand that we can't understand that, you know.

00:59:28.449 --> 00:59:39.204
<v Speaker>Well, Bob, thank you for talking to me today about AI, Dharma Bob, and your optimistic take on how humanity can benefit from this new technology.

00:59:39.204 --> 00:59:40.103
<v Speaker>I really appreciate it.

00:59:40.103 --> 00:59:41.273
<v Speaker>I think so.

00:59:41.273 --> 00:59:41.853
<v Speaker>All the best.

00:59:41.853 --> 00:59:42.864
<v Speaker>Have a great day.

00:59:42.864 --> 00:59:44.358
<v Speaker>very much.

00:59:44.358 --> 00:59:44.974
<v Speaker>Namaste.

00:59:44.974 --> 00:59:45.592
<v Speaker>Namaste.

00:59:45.592 --> 00:59:46.210
<v Speaker>Namaste.

00:59:46.210 --> 00:59:46.827
<v Speaker>Namaste.

00:59:46.827 --> 00:59:47.443
<v Speaker>Namaste.

00:59:47.443 --> 00:59:57.014
<v Speaker>Thanks for joining me for this conversation with Robert Thurman and his AI alter ego, Dharma Bob.

00:59:57.014 --> 01:00:01.085
<v Speaker>If you want to chat with Dharma Bob himself, you can find him at dharmabob.

01:00:01.085 --> 01:00:02.074
<v Speaker>ai or in the App Store.

01:00:03.855 --> 01:00:13.255
<v Speaker>If you enjoyed this episode and want to further explore ideas about how to live a rich, happy life, visit our website at How to Train a Happy mind.org.

01:00:13.255 --> 01:00:23.385
<v Speaker>There you'll discover hundreds of guided analytical meditations podcast episodes and the Train a Happy Mind community that meets every Sunday morning to talk and meditate together.

01:00:23.385 --> 01:00:28.864
<v Speaker>How to Train A Happy Mind is a nonprofit project of A Skeptic's Path to Enlightenment.

01:00:28.864 --> 01:00:33.844
<v Speaker>The podcast is offered freely and without ads thanks to the support of listeners.

01:00:33.844 --> 01:00:37.980
<v Speaker>Thanks to Isabela Acebal for marketing and production on this episode.

01:00:37.980 --> 01:00:40.670
<v Speaker>We wish you a wonderful day.