James Gregson, Digital Creative Director, Americas, The LEGO Group - Discussing Digital Commerce and Marketing

 It has to start somewhere. It has to start some time. What better place than here? What better time than now?
 You're listening to the Radcast. If it's radical, we cover it. Here's your host, Ryan Alford.
 Hey, guys. It's Ryan Alford. Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast.
 I am excited for myself and my children a bit today from a brand perspective. I'm joined by James Gregsen who is the creative director of digital at Lego.
 What's up, James? What's up? Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
 Yeah, man. You know, you know, you're going to get it every time. Like, especially a guy with kids as we talk for three episodes, four boys under the age of 11.
 Look, you know how many Legos around my house? I could build a bridge from here to Connecticut.
 Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine I was just on a creative brainstorm the other day talking about how around Christmas time I got a ping pong table.
 And I think that ping pong table lasted like until New Year's Eve before I was a Lego table. So I get it. I was in my mother and I were in that sweet spot.
 My three kids under three years old are not quite in that sweet spot yet. I was trying to not have them swallow Lego.
 Yes, that was your soul doing that with the twins and the dollar.
 But yes, I both bless you and curse you because, you know, I'm a big guy and I walk around our house. And, you know, it's a long way to the floor for me.
 And you don't know how many in the foot.
 Oh, what is that? It's the Lego piece.
 What's the saying?
 You guys really love company. I don't think you're alone in that feeling. I can't speak to it much more than that.
 Well, cool. I trust you guys are doing well and living in the new normal that we have here, unfortunately, with COVID.
 You know, seeing, you know, you know, Lego's outreaches and things like that. But I trust your looks like at home, like, like many, many people in the corporate role, especially.
 Yes, yeah, we've been at a home since around March.
 We've been, I've been into the office, I think three times since March.
 And the office is somewhat slowly opening up.
 But who knows how that's going to evolve.
 Well, James, let's get started for our audience. Obviously, they know Lego, but let's start with this is really about, you know, James and your story and kind of your background.
 You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know
 you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know
 like 15 years ago whether I am some of you know, I only came back and I was just one eighth mother, Duck Grandma, King, king, king, king, king, king BT OJ.
 I'm going to date myself was about 15 years ago,
 or even more than that, social networking
 and social media was not even a thing.
 Bloggers were kind of a thing,
 but it wasn't even a thing.
 But long story short, I completely be asked my way
 into a new business pitch as an intern
 because I claimed to know everything
 there was about social media and social networking
 because I was on Facebook.
 But no other marketing executive in this large publicly
 traded marketing organization,
 publicly owned marketing organization
 knew about what social networking was.
 And now I am doing social media the way
 everyone does social media now.
 They get to be naked.
 Like how many multi-millionaire success pages
 that we follow, you know?
 That's like, you're well ahead of your time.
 Sure, but yeah, so long story short,
 that's got me kick started and it's really,
 I think it identified something in me that I was like,
 oh, I know a lot more about this naturally
 than many other executives do.
 And similar to my background, I straddle that line
 between the data driven piece
 because that's so critically important
 to social media and community management
 and paid social with, obviously, the creative background
 that I have for the creative skill set that I have.
 I basically worked all the way through the agency world
 in New York City, publicly owned, privately owned startup,
 had enough of the agency world as most people do.
 Decided it would be a great idea to start up my own business.
 It was great fun, five years of, you know,
 deciding what I wanted to do,
 who I wanted to work with and how I wanted to work.
 And it was super successful.
 I didn't have health insurance,
 but it was super successful.
 And then through that, you know,
 I had my own clients, I had, you know,
 I worked for, as a consultant for large agencies on projects
 and I also some white labeled my services
 for smaller agencies.
 And that's how I got connected to LEGO.
 I started working with their former PR agency
 based on the West Coast and then started working
 on LEGO projects through them.
 And then a opportunity opened up
 on the social team of LEGO and I joined them.
 That's awesome.
 Where does your, like, creative background,
 I know you're overseeing multiple disciplines.
 Are you naturally a designer, a writer,
 a videographer, all of the above, or what's there?
 I think you sort of alluded it to it before,
 but, you know, I think most social media journalists
 would argue that they are storytellers, right?
 If you're really gonna focus on something,
 I think that's where, and, you know,
 most traditional creatives will hate me for saying this, right?
 But I am, like, that short-form,
 snackable content storyteller, right?
 Because as we all know, anyone who's,
 anyone who's social additional,
 you've got three seconds, five seconds,
 maybe 10 seconds that grabs someone's attention.
 If you don't, you're not doing your job, right?
 That is not the traditional, you know,
 creative, TVC style, creative direction.
 So it probably pains a lot of traditional creatives
 to hear me say that, but that is what it is.
 How was your growth?
 And, you know, I know you've had a few positions there
 within LEGO.
 Talk about some of your growth
 and the differences in the present kind of roles.
 Yeah, no, it's a good question that it,
 it sort of speaks to what I was talking about earlier, you know,
 social media LEGO was sort of originally
 this sort of beginning to end solution
 or end-to-end solution, right?
 Everything from channel strategy to community management,
 to some creative development, to channel engagement,
 to paid media, to analytics.
 It was all managed within one global team
 that I was a part of.
 And that was very effective for getting things done
 in a very large, highly matrixed organization.
 That was not so effective in making a lot of friends internally.
 Getting buy-in from regional marketing departments
 and sort of scaling to a level
 that we probably needed to scale to go beyond our initial growth.
 So we've since sort of been, I don't want to say like, obliterated,
 but we've since been broken up
 and been various departments have been moved into, sort of,
 larger departments that make sense.
 For example, engagement has been moved into, you know,
 the customer service team.
 Social media travel strategy has been moved into
 the strategy team within the internal creative agency.
 And then, so my new role now has been moved
 into the internal creative agency
 as we try and sort of build out
 a larger understanding of what digital
 and social content development looks like, both.
 As an internal creative team
 and supporting sort of external creation as well.
 It seems to me like, I know you guys have a lot of employees.
 Just seems that the ecosystem of Lego is overwhelming.
 Like, from the outside looking in,
 and I know you have your silos
 and your everyone has their roles,
 but is it just as daunting as it seems,
 or is it like, or is it, I know there's,
 there's organization in the, in the, the hugeness of my,
 my really great grammar.
 But, you know, is it just as great,
 is it just as gigantic as it seems?
 I think it is.
 Yeah, that's a fair, that's definitely a fair feedback.
 I think on the flip side, if I'm trying to be super positive,
 I think it speaks to the scale of the opportunity, right?
 If you look at someone like, you know, Apple, right?
 As a, as a brand that sort of really brings to life
 what a digital ecosystem should look like.
 And, you know, how that sort of brand experience
 has replicated every physical and digital touch point.
 That's, I think, something that we are aspiring to,
 from a digital ecosystem standpoint,
 potentially simplify and make it feel less daunting,
 but also make it feel high quality
 and, you know, luxury to some extent.
 Because that's what, you know, consumers have come to expect
 from the product itself.
 It is a very high-end quality product
 and we want that same experience from every single time
 you log onto the website to buy a product
 to visiting, you know, a retail store.
 So, the short answer is, yes, I think it is a bit daunting
 because there are so many, you know, in some cases,
 to be frank, siloed digital outputs.
 But there is a lot of energy around, you know,
 what our digital ecosystem should look like moving forward,
 what digital transformation means to us at LEGO
 and then how, from a, from a content marketing standpoint,
 how my team can be supportive of that.
 I will say, I feel I'm gonna add one choose
 of the ecosystem having been there, LEGO land.
 Yeah, actually, you know, thoroughly delivered
 on the overall experience.
 Like, it's a, to this day, my kids favorite place
 that we've gone to, we've gone to all the different ones,
 which in a COVID world seems crazy,
 but, you know, hopefully we'll be back there soon.
 But, so you guys do a terrific job of carrying it through
 at all levels.
 Have you spent any time down there?
 That is the goal.
 I have definitely, I've been to the one in Orlando.
 I'm excited to go to the one in New York
 that's opening soon, obviously our newest one.
 But yeah, yes, I mean, that's, that's that physical
 manifestation of the product experience, right?
 From bringing it more to, from building or consumption
 from an entertainment or TV, you know,
 show style environment to that physical experience.
 It's, it's cool to see come to life.
 Can we or can we not break any details on
 let go of the movie through?
 Is that, will that be part of the radcast today?
 Oh, I don't know, giveaways here.
 I can neither confirm nor deny.
 I don't know, all right.
 I'm with the ass, I can tell my kids I asked.
 Yes, patiently waiting like I get on Christmas Eve.
 Absolutely not.
 So, how many different channels do you,
 like how many different like social media, like profiles
 is there for the leg over me?
 I mean, it is, I can't remember the last count.
 I think you'll be surprised to learn
 that it is not that many, right?
 So, at a very basic level across Instagram, for example,
 we have, I'm gonna, I'm gonna guess
 seven or eight, not that.
 Oh, wow.
 Now, obviously they're, they're, they're regionalized, right?
 Well, sorry.
 So on Instagram, no, seven or eight is, is probably fair.
 There's not that many and that is by design, right?
 I think, and I know this by speaking to many other
 colleagues of mine at, at major, similar size brands
 or bigger, you know, they have operatives of 300 different
 social channels and it becomes immeasurable, right?
 Immeasurable and not manageable.
 And I think we have a very different approach to that, right?
 So for YouTube, for example, you know,
 we have a singular brand channel and maybe five,
 five, six, five or six sub-brand channels off of that.
 And that is by design, right?
 It makes a whole series of number of things easier.
 Obviously, that channel strategy will, will likely evolve
 and that's not ultimately my remit or my team's remit.
 But yes, we have a somewhat simplified channel strategy
 by design.
 That's smart.
 We work a lot of brands where that has not come fruition.
 And this is a care of implementation and keeping things
 to the brand standards and every other notion.
 So hats off too.
 And I keep that as streamlined.
 What's, like in your current position,
 what success look like?
 Like what is, what is, what, you know,
 what's the day-to-day charge, you know?
 It is a, that's a really good question
 and something that I just shared in a fairly large global
 internal meeting about the fact that, you know,
 social creative has a very different performance metric
 than digital creative, right?
 Especially social creative.
 You know very quickly, maybe within a minute, within 60 seconds,
 whatever it is, whether a social post is going to perform well or not,
 right?
 And that's based on benchmarking, right?
 So one of the things that I harp with my team is,
 I get very upset when I hear things like,
 you know, social post performed really well.
 Like, or it had, you know, 500,000 likes.
 Okay?
 Compared to what?
 You know, what's, what's that in comparison to?
 Is that, you know, up X percent on the last post?
 What's our benchmark, right?
 So we very, I talk about, you know, success benchmarking a lot, right?
 And yes, I would say there's an apples to apples comparison.
 It's difficult.
 Certainly when you look at content being published for a high affinity audience
 versus a low affinity audience, and organically speaking,
 a high affinity audience is going to live on your social channels
 and engage in that content higher than a low affinity audience is.
 But at a very basic level, my creatives need to know very quickly
 what is good and what is bad, right?
 And benchmarks help to do that, right?
 So at a basic level, we have an engagement rate,
 great benchmark across Instagram and Facebook for videos
 and across Facebook and Instagram for images.
 And then a organic reach benchmark across videos and Facebook
 split by Facebook and Instagram, right?
 That's a very perverse basic way of looking at it.
 Because as I said, it's the best quick litmus test
 without having a whole bunch of analysts, you know, data analysts looking into it
 of how we can determine what was good and what was bad.
 I love it.
 The benchmarking, I preach that to my team.
 I have an affinity metrics driving crazy.
 So you're preaching to the choir on this side.
 I think it does key up, you know, something we talked about
 in kind of our pre-show outline, but I think in your role
 and maybe just your perspective with all your experience,
 you know, we have a lot of discussions here with brands we work with
 and I see it, especially in the coffers of LinkedIn,
 otherwise this performance marking versus brand.
 And, you know, performance marketing has become the,
 you know, buzz word.
 I joked and with the posting recently, smart ass feedback.
 You know, we were so desperate for attribution marking,
 we had to put the performance world in front end of it.
 And the C-suite required an ROI on every dollar that, you know,
 like I feel like it's sacking a little bit of the creativity
 that comes with true branding.
 However, all of my biases aside, I would like to know,
 like both in your role and just your general perspective on both of those.
 Yeah, it's a good topic, right?
 I think, you know, for all of the success that, let's say,
 organic social drove businesses and marketing.
 I think it's also been potentially a downfall, right?
 Because, you know, once, you know, the value of organic reach has been essentially,
 you know, declined or diminished.
 There too has the theoretical ROI of what we do as marketers or as content creators.
 I think there's a number of variables of play, right?
 The industry as a whole is full of a lot of crap to potentially, right?
 And I think there's a lot of people selling the value and social in a way that gets people burned
 or in a way that sets up the honest ones of us for failure to some excess.
 So that's why I think, you know, and this comes back to my experience when I ran my own business.
 You know, when you're running, let's say, you know, a Facebook page for a brand,
 this is not hypothetical, this is real, for a clothing brand, a high end clothing brand for kids that was being paid
 and you were being paid by the founders of said brand out of their pocket every month to manage that presence.
 You better be sure that that presence delivers some element of value.
 Now, if you're not able to define what that value is in a way that makes them feel comfortable
 and happy with giving you X number of dollars a month, then they're not going to be, you know, your client for very long.
 And that client specifically, I won't use their name, but they were a client of mine for three and a half years, right?
 And they were my longest retainer business that I had.
 And that was because every month I delivered a report that defined the value of what I did.
 It's not just this post got you this many likes or this post drove you this many likes.
 It was we drove this much traffic to your website.
 And therefore potentially drove this much, you know, level of stick to it in this, whatever it is that defined.
 My point being is it's both you've got to be very strict about what your objectives are and then ensuring that you are communicating those objectives very clearly.
 And it's so easy to water down those objectives by providing too much data or just not being super succinct with what you're trying to deliver.
 What do you think about? And you know, Lego and I'm glad you brought up the other brands you've worked on, you know, because Lego was, you know, in a unique position being the size that it is that, you know, you don't have to scream.
 Our Legos were on sale, you know, versus a very cool brand video that's, you know, elevating the ecosystem or whatever.
 But for other brands that don't have that is what's kind of just crushing my soul a little bit is the rush, the rush to the bottom of, you know, of price and features versus, you know, call me old school.
 But can you hear me now campaign or the, you know, or Jared, it's some way before he became a pedophile.
 You know, like the campaign aspect, the brand aspect of marketing seems to be, again, maybe not for brands like Lego, but, you know, seems to be diminishing.
 I don't know if that's just.
 The brand building was easy, everybody would do it, right, brand building is a marathon, right, it's not a sprint, it takes time, it takes test and learns, it takes failures to figure it out, right, I think, again, to some extent, you know, the, the social media world and the influencers behind successful brands, in some cases have ruined this for the rest of us.
 Because they've made it super successful because they, they became a viral sensation, you know, and I literally just came out of my meeting before this was talking about the tiktok.
 Ocean spray example and how, you know, all of a sudden we've got this, you know, how do I go viral moment picking up again, right, everyone wants their, you know, Superbowl Oreo moment, which is great, I totally get it, of course, I want to be behind, want to be behind one of those moments, absolutely.
 But that isn't a strategy, right, that's an unattainable strategy, it's the process and having the process and the team behind that, and the strategy behind that that enables a moment like that, but yeah, it's a tough one.
 What's, what's been that you could talk about, you know, maybe you're most exciting project at Lego or something you're most proud of.
 I mean, listen, at the end of the day, working might, you know, the eight year old version myself does not appreciate the job that I have, right, I was that kid that was obsessed with playing with Lego for hours upon hours, I had, you know, those popcorn, those cans of popcorn used to get, I do see it for Christmas.
 They were like, they were like corporate gifts, they were split into like cheddar popcorn, caramel popcorn and salt popcorn.
 I very quickly threw that popcorn out and made those like big barrels of Lego set of Lego Lego pieces, right, you know, I used to use that ping pong table to build Lego.
 So I think for me, you know, being a part of a brand that probably defines purpose driven branding is the best part about working for Lego.
 I think a project most recently that I'm really proud of is, you know, how we really leaned into supporting families stuck on home during COVID, which was let's build together.
 And it was all about the premise that, you know, everyone's routines were, you know, completely messed up, you know, kids were didn't have routines, people were stuck at home with little to do.
 So, you know, maybe pause from Netflix a little bit and, you know, start building with Lego and there was a whole bunch of sort of engagement supported from native content to help people pass the time.
 I love it. And it's a relevant with COVID and everything else, which leads me a little bit towards, again, I know you're in a leadership position.
 Talk about your leadership style and know your growth in that area and kind of navigating maybe as relevant as it is COVID, but how you've been navigating leadership through COVID and just in general, you know, talk a little bit about that.
 So in general, I am a pretty straight shooter.
 I'm super transparent.
 And, you know, maybe you could, you could spin that in an interview related term as I'm very authentic.
 But, I mean, I think that's a value because once you, if you're important to me or you work at me, you understand what I'm trying to say and I'm not, you know, I'm not trying to get to another point without being very direct.
 I don't, you know, I see obviously I'm sensitive to, you know, you know, giving, you know, the right type of feedback in the right sort of way.
 But I do think that's at least a unique element to my leadership style.
 I think, you know, as any leaders that are dealing with what we're dealing with, it's what, right.
 I'm just going to, I'm going to raise my hand right now and say like, you know, and I am transparent with my team about this.
 I've got three kids under three. I have literally had like two hours of sleep, jumped on a four o'clock in the morning meeting for a massive campaign and, you know, been fried and absolutely melted melted down.
 But, you know, I think it's about being honest with yourself and making sure that you're checking in with everyone, right.
 So we do everything from I have daily, like coffee hours or office hours, anyone from my team can join in.
 We're not there every day, but it just gives an opportunity to see someone's face, maybe not talk about work. We try not to talk about work, never really talk about podcasts or TV or food.
 Yeah, I think it's about also being creative, right. So, you know, I think the thing that I've strongly with is creative inspiration to some extent. I mean, I'm stuck in these four walls every day.
 And, you know, I'm lucky that I have a dedicated office space in my house, right. I think back to being in New York City in my apartment where my desk was in my bedroom and my desk drawers were full of underwear and socks because I don't have a lot of space, right.
 But not everyone has the same set up as I do from a home office, right.
 And so it's checking in with people and making sure that, you know, they are doing okay.
 I think it's humanizing leadership a little bit more so than you ever would before.
 We've done everything from like get lunch socially distanced in the parking lot of our office that was closed when it wasn't cold.
 To where renting out a movie theater because you can do that now for like, upwards of no more than 20 people.
 And you can watch a class movie. So I think we're going to watch Jurassic Park as a team in a whole movie theater.
 That's certainly one of the things I hate about COVID is I can't go to the movies. I used to love going to movies.
 So yeah, I think there's, there's a number of things where you've just got to break it up, right.
 That the, it's a, it's a burn, right. It's a slow, slow burn. And I think certainly as we get into this.
 I don't want to call it the second spike of COVID, but the winter time.
 I think it's going to become an issue again. So I think it's just being very staying very close to everyone individually.
 You talked about it a little bit, you know, creative inspiration is, you know, where do you get yours or, you know, you answered a little bit.
 But are there brands that you, you know, keep up with us and I keep there.
 You know, let's plug for them. I guess, you know, but yes, that's fine. Yeah, no, I think I definitely like, you know, the.
 At the end of the day, I'm a content consumer, right. Yes, I also work in the content generation business, but, you know, for better for worse.
 I think it's for better.
 You know, I watch probably an hours worth of YouTube on my personal time every day.
 Now, I'm not reading like the best of market. I'm not watching the best of marketing videos or stuff like that.
 But my brain, again, for better for worse, I think it's for better, can't help try and understand the process of.
 How is that video being delivered to me? Right. How is that algorithm serving that piece of content to me?
 Why is this content engaging to me? Why have I not turned it off yet? What video shows up next in that algorithm?
 All those components, what pre-roll happened? Was that a good piece of pre-roll? Did I fast forward that whole experience?
 Again, for better for worse.
 Sort of inspires my day to day, right? Obviously, there's the, the, the destinations that I go to that clear destinations I go to.
 Like, you know, LinkedIn or Harvard Business Review or at age for, you know, the eight year in your face type inspiration.
 But I think it's not passive inspiration that I take great, great value in.
 Because I as a consumer, I'm consuming this content as not a professional, but as a consumer. And I think that's, you know, that's that sweet spot that I'm trying to understand in the work that we do.
 And why takes me because I give her the, I walk her through reverse the creative breach for every commercial that comes on.
 I tell her what, this is what consumers thought before. This is what they're trying to make them think.
 This is how they want them to think, feel an act. And here's the main idea, like I literally do.
 I see it. And it's hard to take off the blinders of, yes, of the job. But it also makes me a smarter marketer kind of understanding that.
 Yeah, I mean, listen, it's everything from, right, I listen to a sports podcast, right, and on that.
 And, you know, for what it's worth, I get pained by podcast advertising. Sorry, if you have advertising.
 But, you know, I, I take great inspiration because this was a podcast, you know, has done what I believe is, you know, the right way of brain integration, right, and it has become an integrated part of their podcast, right.
 And it's not that 15 second spot that they're reading off of the paper that is so clearly vapid and unengaged. Sorry again for anyone that does this.
 And, you know, it harkens back to, you know, the Samsung and Casey Neistat relationship, right, like that is influencer marketing done right.
 I don't know the financials behind that relationship originally, but it wasn't an ad. It didn't become an ad.
 It became an integrated part of his content journey, right. And that is how I think advertise the future of advertising should be addressed, certainly in that social influencer space.
 I totally agree.
 I know it kept you a little long, but I do want to ask you, is there anything that you're watching trends wise, you know, I know you got the collaboration of Tik Tok and Reels in the short form video, like it's coming out with a fire hose.
 I don't really imagine the scale and scope you guys are dealing with, but anything you're seeing or wrapping your head around for 2021.
 Not specifically, I mean, I think listen, we're all waiting to see how the economy reacts to COVID.
 I think that's going to be a big one.
 Obviously, some sort of election might have something to do with that as well.
 So I think that's definitely going to have a potential impact.
 I think right now, a lot of the social channels need probably to look at themselves in the mirror a little bit and figure that stuff out, speaking from my personal perspective.
 But no, I mean, I can't speak to specific trends. I think, you know, the pivot of the event marketing world is going to be really interesting, right?
 And how that evolves, I don't think physical events, you know, Comic Con, the South by Southwest are going to happen next year.
 I mean, I think there will be years without, you know, marquee moments in, you know, event marketing.
 And I'm not sure anyone's really figured out the solve for that. And I think, honestly, there isn't a solve for that, but there's going to be a need to, there's going to need to be a reallocation of that money somewhere.
 That's worth tick tock is the most fascinating platform of all time. I still don't think brands have really figured it out right from my consumer experience of tick tock.
 The brand integration is obviously very influence or heavy, but even from an algorithm standpoint, if I'm scrolling through.
 I'm going to say I've seen three pieces of branded content like produced from a brand by a brand on tick tock.
 So I think there's a long ways to go for brands to figure out their space to play. But the reason I think it was today, the partnership with Spotify is going to have some pretty massive implications.
 Yeah, of course, that marriage music and video and, you know, you're, you're hundreds of right.
 It's, I hate this. I would never say this normally, but I think right now, the best integration is if you just let the influence or do it, they would normally do.
 And then they just have a Lego t-shirt on. And I, like, like right now, like is, is basic is, is I would never say that about anything else typically.
 But when you get them into doing unnatural things as much as everything about tick tock is somewhat unnatural.
 But, but it's natural to that platform, anything that's just not organic and real comes off so, I don't know, just played up, you know.
 Listen, it's a, it's a, it's a facet listen, it's a facet, fascinating social experiments to talk, you know, as it's a lot of influence on marketing to be, to be frank, but, you know, there no joke there, there, the data behind that platform is super impressive.
 And, you know, I think the other part, the other, you know, trends maybe I, I think I'm sad to see evolve, you know, I think podcasts are being hit pretty hard just because of the evolution of people's commutes, right, and the impact that has on podcast consumption.
 You know, but they were having quite the wave, right, pre-COVID. So I'm excited for that. And, you know, it was resulting in really, really great content. Right. So I'm excited. I mean, as is everyone, I'm a little excited to bring back some normalcy to our routines that then bring some normalcy into marketing.
 Yeah, as a podcast host, I totally agree with that last thing. But what we've seen what's interesting is our, our subscribers have gotten more loyal.
 But the growth of the subscribers has slowed a bit in, you know, no, and I think it's, you know, we will at least talk it up to the natural disasters of what's happening.
 You know, I hope I helped with that.
 The death of the commute is a real thing, right, like, you know, once commute, I used to spend a little over two hours every day commuting, right. And that wasn't, that was a content consumption moment, right. Yes, I was driving, you know, I wasn't looking at you too, but I was, you know, I was listening to podcasts on that, that time, and that time I haven't gotten back.
 Right, I'm sure it's just been home through kids. And we, I think, you know, you've inspired me. We were thinking of this anyway, but I think our, we're going to do the definitive podcast on the state of TikTok soon. So we'll send you a link.
 And you, you know, and maybe use some, some quotes and different episodes, but James, just a pleasure. Really appreciate your time.
 We both stay in touch with you. I follow you on like, Dan, let's stay in touch and maybe do a follow up here in the months and hopefully with a rebound in the world.
 Best of luck with those three little ones. Thank you.
 Yeah, we'll talk to you. We'll send.
 How can everyone keep up with you though? Let's say let's, let's, let's start by how to keep up.
 You can reach out to me across socials at JLW Greg. So that's LinkedIn, Instagram and Twitter, JLW Greg.
 Yeah, thanks. We invite appreciate the time. And yeah, I guess they say the sign off these days.
 Exactly. All right, guys, that's the episode for Redcast. We'll see you next time.
 Yo, guys, what's up, Ryan Alfred here. Thanks so much for listening. Really appreciate it. Do us a favor.
 If you've been enjoying the Redcast, you need to share the word with a friend or anyone else.
 We'd really appreciate it and go leave us a review at Apple or Spotify. Do us a solid.
 Tell more people, leave us some reviews. And hey, here's the best news of all.
 If you want to work with me directly, you want to get your business kicking ass.
 And you want radical or myself involved, you can text me directly at 864.
 729-3680. Don't wait another minute. Let's get your business going.
 864-729-3680. We'll see you next time.