Ep. 315 - China Speed: Data, Deals, First in Class

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[ AI-generated transcript ]

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Dealmaking between Western and China biotechs has been one of the bright spots of 2025.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>As the maturing biotech landscape in China converges with Western demand for innovative assets leading to record deal flow.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>At the same time, the Hong Kong stock exchange has become the hottest market for the biotech sector at a time when the IPO window remains shut.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>On Nasdaq, the themes of China's burgeoning biotech innovation, deal making strategies, and green shoots of financing are central to what we here at BioCentury, and at McKinsey And at BayHelix will be discussing, with, friends, colleagues, VCs.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>top deal makers from the West and East on stage in the hallways and at the networking receptions of the BioCentury BayHelix China Healthcare Summit this October.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>And McKinsey once again will be our Insights Partner.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>On today's BioCentury this week podcast, we've invited a few, uh, special guests to join us to talk about.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>How China is.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Well, China's hot at the moment.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Joining me are Franck Le Deu, a senior partner at McKinsey, where he co-leads the firm's Asia healthcare practice.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Ji Li, a former top BD executive at Biopharma, such as Merck in Beijing, now known as B one.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>G is now a consultant on cross border deals.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>And we also have Mike Patten, the, recently installed Chief Strategy Officer at Harbour BioMed.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Mike, was formerly the head of equity and venture capital at BMS, and from the BioCentury side, we're joined by Josh Berlin.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>He's the head of BD for BioCentury and VP and Editor in Chief Simone Fishburn, who of course is something of a fixture on both of our podcasts  Okay.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>I'd like to bring in Simone now to kick us off.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Simone, you just completed an analysis of nearly 200 East West deals.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>we will be digging into that in a bit, but I wanted to ask you upfront, what are some of the key trends that you saw while doing that analysis?

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<v Simone Fishburn>Thank you Jeff.

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<v Simone Fishburn>and really what fun to be on this podcast.

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<v Simone Fishburn>I'm not talking tennis today, which most of our people know is, is a recurring feature, but I will say there are some really good Chinese tennis players coming through.

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<v Simone Fishburn>But anyway, moving on to deals.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Right.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Well, the reason we did this analysis is that.

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<v Simone Fishburn>You know, it's sort of axiomatic now that China is really a source of innovation.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And so what we really wanted to do was to dig into the details underlying it and who's buying what and how much.

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<v Simone Fishburn>I'm just gonna give you three highlights that I, I want people to think about.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So for us and many people who read it, one of the big surprises is the numbers of Western biotechs rather than MNCs doing deals with China licensors.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So it's well known that the MNCs, the pharmas, have been out shopping for deals.

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<v Simone Fishburn>But actually two thirds of the deal volume with China license source, was to western biotechs.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And I thought that was really interesting.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So that's a new dynamic that is, is reshaping, I think, global bd, not a big surprise file under, not a big surprise.

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<v Simone Fishburn>The second thing, and that is the increase in number of deals.

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<v Simone Fishburn>This is going back to the start of.

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<v Simone Fishburn>2023. Okay.

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<v Simone Fishburn>But the increase in number of deals in immunity and inflammation and more recently in obesity.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And why is that not a big surprise?

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<v Simone Fishburn>Because anybody, Franck, I know you're gonna talk about this, anybody who's been watching China knows if there's a hot area they're gonna go in and they are gonna get in fast and they are going to, you know, you're gonna see tremendous value created for all the reasons we are gonna go into.

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<v Simone Fishburn>and I want to point out that those obesity deals.

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<v Simone Fishburn>We're mostly north of $2 billion in total deal value.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So these are not nickel and dime deals.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Right.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And the third one I'm gonna file under, not a surprise for us, but maybe a little bit of a surprise for some people.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Who still continue to believe that China is a sort of fast follower environment, the proportion of first in class assets in those deals.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So first, what we call first order innovation is coming from China.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Anybody who thinks that that is not happening head in the sand.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So about 40% of the deals that disclosed to target were potential first in class products.

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<v Simone Fishburn>The biggest group was new modalities, which means people, for example, taking a new, like a bispecific or an ADC to create a therapy that would be better than something where there's, let's say, a, a monoclonal or a small molecule.

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<v Simone Fishburn>But the last thing I wanna say is it does not stop there.

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<v Simone Fishburn>A substantial number of the first in class assets were novel targets.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And this is something I'm quite often asked, like, yeah, yeah, there's innovation, but do they really, you know, explore new biology and new targets?

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<v Simone Fishburn>And the answer is yes.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And so China, I think it's not so much a questioning of the biology, but a question of the risk appetite.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And so what we see is that China innovators are willing to take risks on new targets, and so are their licensees, the people they're partnering with.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So I'm gonna stop there, Jeff.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Those are my three, um, three take homes, if that's

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Excellent.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>And we'll, we'll tuck into some of the numbers and,  other, uh, ways in which you slice and dice those data, in a little bit.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>But I wanna bring in Franck now, Franck.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Is a, frequent guest on the podcast, and,  he,  has been instrumental in helping us put on several of our conferences the years.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>And, uh, if you follow his LinkedIn, you'll know that He has been, uh, picking apart the different deals that he is seeing,  it almost feels like, uh, every day at this point.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>And so, Franck, I, I'd just like to ask you from your perspective, what are you seeing in terms of what's going on with these East West deals in particular with, the larger companies from the West, the MNCs.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Sure, Jeff, uh, Jeff and, and more the team here on, on the podcast.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Thanks for having me again.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Always a pleasure to join you guys and share some of my thoughts.

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<v Franck Le Deu>I think first maybe it's, it's helpful maybe to, uh, to step back a little bit.

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<v Franck Le Deu>I know, that Simone talked about this new trend in 2025, or at least accelerating trend, I guess, and I, I know that.

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<v Franck Le Deu>JP Morgan this year was a wake up call for many people in the industry, but for us and who've been following this for a decade now, this wasn't far from being a surprise, right?

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<v Franck Le Deu>We actually have seen heavy interest from some multinationals for quite some time now in China.

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<v Franck Le Deu>I think what has changed is that this interest is now broad based.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Like all top 20 or top 25 multinationals are now showing interest in sourcing.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Innovation from China and actually morely from Asia and talk about it and are taking action behind it, putting goods on the ground specifically.

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<v Franck Le Deu>in Mainland China.

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<v Franck Le Deu>But we also see, as you said earlier, uh, Simone, a lot of biotech companies are trying to take advantage of the opportunity.

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<v Franck Le Deu>If we step back.

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<v Franck Le Deu>This is driven really by, I guess converging, converging trends, that are perfect match On one hand, multinationals and biotech are clearly looking for ways to, enrich their pipelines.

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<v Franck Le Deu>We know that there's a significant, uh, patent expiry cliff, uh, coming up in 2020.

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<v Franck Le Deu>I think by some estimate, over $200 billion of revenues will disappear.

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<v Franck Le Deu>So that creates a need for companies to transform their R&D engine, including planning more sources of innovation, clearly as well, geopolitics.

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<v Franck Le Deu>We won't talk much about geopolitics today, but even though it's hanging in the background, it hasn't yet, deterred companies from taking action, right?

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<v Franck Le Deu>They still see a path to actually sourcing innovation from China and even the current, uh, US China context.

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<v Franck Le Deu>also, quite frankly, the track record of the first deals in between 23, 24, even before that, has given more confidence to some of the earlier player that there was something real in China.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And I, I would say that, to some extent, a, a fear of missing out are starting to creep in, in the rest of the multinationals.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And as well a few success stories, for biotech companies has created, an urge for a broader set of biotech to jump in, right.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And make sure that they don't miss something.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And then let's not forget on the local side, there's an urgent, acute need to find partners.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And yes, the Hong Kong Exchange is better.

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<v Franck Le Deu>but frankly crashed.

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<v Franck Le Deu>So it's just a recovery from a low point.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Yes.

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<v Franck Le Deu>The IPO window is, open again, which is great, but local companies are still struggling to find means to support their development.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And for them, the stream of revenues they can get from upfront payment, in particular in deal making is vital.

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<v Franck Le Deu>The, the Chinese market for innovation itself, while it's growing, is still not at the scale that you would need to support a full innovation ecosystem of local companies.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Pricing is is an issue still.

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<v Franck Le Deu>competition is cutthroat.

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<v Franck Le Deu>It is very expensive to compete in China, which means that only at scale companies can take advantage of that.

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<v Franck Le Deu>So that's the context.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Then what do we see and why do we believe this is actually a trend that will reshape the global biopharma industry?

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<v Franck Le Deu>We see six reasons actually.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And my colleague in our China practice just released a report on that, that, I will just give you a takeaway first.

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<v Franck Le Deu>I think as Simone shown, this is way beyond oncology.

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<v Franck Le Deu>This is expanding into new therapeutic areas, metabolism, neurology, immunology, et cetera.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Two, it is beyond ADCs and MABs like, you know, people talked a lot about the ADC power of China, but this is actually going now into next generation platforms, cell engine therapies, RNA therapies, radioligand therapies, et cetera.

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<v Franck Le Deu>So way beyond ADCs.

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<v Franck Le Deu>It is also beyond fast following, and we start to see the cultivation of novel biological discoveries.

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<v Franck Le Deu>China is catching up with Germany and Japan, for example, on the number of high quality research papers that are seated in the top tier journals.

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<v Franck Le Deu>We believe that there is a potential for first in class assets to come from China, not today, August 13th, 2025, but certainly in the near future beyond labor cost.

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<v Franck Le Deu>China R&D is just faster, and as you know, speed in R&D is extremely important.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Why is China faster?

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<v Franck Le Deu>We looked into the topic.

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<v Franck Le Deu>We think that they have re-engineered basically end-to-end, how to develop drugs from discovery to, clinics.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And they do that in a very systematic, way.

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<v Franck Le Deu>they leverage a very agile clinical research ecosystem that has no equivalent in the world.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And also they apply a focused execution mindset, but is also quite unique if you think about their work ethics.

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<v Franck Le Deu>the ability to really mobilize beyond clear goals.

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<v Franck Le Deu>two more points.

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<v Franck Le Deu>I.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Franck, lemme jump in.

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<v Simone Fishburn>to ask you and the other panelists this.

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<v Simone Fishburn>we know about the energy in China and the commitment, but I wanted to know couple of things.

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<v Simone Fishburn>One is how much do you think this is a feature, the deal making, the success of the ability to go very fast into the clinic, and how much of a sort of leg up does that provide?

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<v Simone Fishburn>China researchers?

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<v Simone Fishburn>Over their counterparts in the west.

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<v Simone Fishburn>and then the other question is this, there's sort of.

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<v Simone Fishburn>This notion that I've heard that there was a lot of money that went in in 1919, sorry, wrong century.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Um, 2020.

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<v Simone Fishburn>um, this is sort of e everybody, you all may wanna respond to this.

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<v Simone Fishburn>A lot of money went in, in, in 2019, 2020, 2021.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Created a lot of new companies and now we're actually starting to see the fruits of that money in these companies bringing.

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<v Simone Fishburn>assets and programs that can be partnered.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So who wants to pick that up?

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<v Simone Fishburn>But I don't, I don't know, Franck, if you've got a response and then maybe I've, I've ruined your plan, Jeff.

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<v Simone Fishburn>I know,

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<v Franck Le Deu>No, no, no, no worries.

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<v Franck Le Deu>I was just like going to quickly touch on, I got your point.

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<v Franck Le Deu>I probably went over a little bit, but on point of number five, clinical trial, China is expanding beyond China.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Right?

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<v Franck Le Deu>And that's very important to, to make the assets more attractive for global partners.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And also beyond the bench, China is scaling robotics and AI.

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<v Franck Le Deu>We probably wont talk about that today and to your two questions.

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<v Franck Le Deu>I think the speed is the name of a game, right?

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<v Franck Le Deu>when assets actually have limited differentiation.

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<v Franck Le Deu>When China is able to bring assets that are really competitive on many aspects of their clinical profile, the speed is the name of the game.

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<v Franck Le Deu>We believe that the speed of China means that.

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<v Franck Le Deu>unlike what we have seen in the past where you need, basically need to be in the top three to reach a market for any new, new type of, drug class.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And maybe the speed of China will allow more competitors to join the market.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And we may be seeing that in metabolic already, for example.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And we saw it in PD-1, on the maturation of the pipeline of companies that were created a few years back.

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<v Franck Le Deu>I think that's both right.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And, but we also see companies that were set up very, very recently actually come up with interesting.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Assets that are also available.

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<v Franck Le Deu>And there's also a large number of companies who actually have failed in virtualize ecosystem.

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<v Franck Le Deu>We, we talk less about those ones, but there are some as well.

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<v Franck Le Deu>Right?

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<v Franck Le Deu>It's not all success.

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<v Ji Li>so Franck, just to follow up regarding the, the speed of China, right.

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<v Ji Li>So, so that generated two general responses from different categories of company in the multinational circle.

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<v Ji Li>There's a belief that, they pretty much give up to do anything internally.

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<v Ji Li>If something get published in a paper you know, if, if they wait for the internal bureaucrat system to get this up and running, the joke was, you know, you go to China, they give you a clinical candidate already.

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<v Ji Li>So they pretty much, resigned to the fact that you go to China to find these things.

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<v Ji Li>But on the other side of the ecosystem, the earlier stage, central capital incubating new company, it generate fear.

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<v Ji Li>Because they do not want to disclose what they're working on, knowing once that become the public domain, they will be swamped by dozens of, you know, projects that go past them.

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<v Ji Li>So that's a really interesting, effect that have, my, observation in, in the last, I would say year or two.

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<v Ji Li>it, it's become very obvious.

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<v Ji Li>It is indispensable for China to be part of our ecosystem.

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<v Ji Li>Right?

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<v Ji Li>but that thing has evolved in the last, I would say, six to 12 months.

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<v Ji Li>What you can see is beside the biopharma biotech that you've seen that has been funded in the last five, 10 years, the major domestic farmer in China has entered the fray.

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<v Ji Li>And these people are much more well financed.

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<v Ji Li>Much more capable in terms of clinical development.

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<v Ji Li>So all of a sudden they're generating Post-POC or even later stage program that has created fierce competition among the MNC.

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<v Ji Li>Try to acquire these program, try to fill their late stage pipeline gap.

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<v Ji Li>And that is something, really become competitive in the late stage deal making.

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<v Ji Li>In contrary in the early stage where, you know, we talk about a lot of the new codes and VC backed, uh, uh, biotech, those remain pretty much in the favor of the buyer, if you will, because there are hundreds of company competing in the same space.

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<v Ji Li>You really need to be standing out.

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<v Ji Li>To be, a winner like what Harbour has done recently.

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<v Ji Li>Right.

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<v Ji Li>so it is become a two different trend.

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<v Ji Li>I see.

00:15:51.984 --> 00:15:53.085
<v Ji Li>They're both competitive.

00:15:53.384 --> 00:15:54.852
<v Ji Li>I think in the late stage.

00:15:55.053 --> 00:15:59.591
<v Ji Li>Some of the program has generated or command, very little discount.

00:15:59.892 --> 00:16:07.899
<v Ji Li>I would argue they, they're starting to generate premium while in the early stage you can still find bargain you know, at a discount if you will.

00:16:08.701 --> 00:16:09.400
<v Josh Berlin>Ji, this is Josh.

00:16:09.400 --> 00:16:10.836
<v Josh Berlin>Maybe I'll, I'll jump in also.

00:16:10.836 --> 00:16:14.273
<v Josh Berlin>And, and Mike, I, I wanted to sort of turn the conversation to you as well.

00:16:14.273 --> 00:16:21.312
<v Josh Berlin>'cause, you know, one of the things I think we're seeing is, um, also a move to, strategic collaborations as well.

00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:30.855
<v Josh Berlin>there's been a, a, a couple of really high profile,  examples of that, and I think one of the earlier ones, I saying early, but only five months ago.

00:16:30.855 --> 00:16:32.390
<v Josh Berlin>That's, I guess, China speed for you.

00:16:32.591 --> 00:16:40.432
<v Josh Berlin>But I thought, um, you know, one of the earlier, ones, at least this year that sort of pointed towards, a strategic collaboration was that deal you guys did with.

00:16:40.666 --> 00:16:43.201
<v Josh Berlin>With AstraZeneca, back in, in March, I believe it was.

00:16:43.201 --> 00:16:52.878
<v Josh Berlin>So, can you tell us a little bit about that deal and what the thinking was for Harbour and, and how you see that, evolving, in the, uh, you know, are, we're gonna see more of these sort of strategic collaborations, in other words.

00:16:53.711 --> 00:16:54.346
<v Mike Patten>Absolutely.

00:16:54.346 --> 00:16:54.379
<v Mike Patten>Yeah.

00:16:54.712 --> 00:16:55.179
<v Mike Patten>thank you.

00:16:55.179 --> 00:16:57.482
<v Mike Patten>Thank you Josh and the BioCentury team.

00:16:57.482 --> 00:17:07.492
<v Mike Patten>It's a pleasure to join you today and, and indeed, you know, this is really exciting times at at Harbour as you know, as you've highlighted in the discussion, but also in your, your recent analysis.

00:17:07.492 --> 00:17:11.596
<v Mike Patten>And, yeah, I mean, I think AstraZeneca, our, you know, our collaboration with AstraZeneca is.

00:17:12.663 --> 00:17:33.184
<v Mike Patten>Exciting obviously for Harbour, but it's also significant for the region, you know, five months ago and really being the first major collaboration of its type in being a, you know, multi-program, multi-year research collaboration focused on the discovery of the next generation multispecifics, focused on also oncology and immunology.

00:17:33.684 --> 00:17:46.065
<v Mike Patten>In terms of the structure of the deal, this is five year initial, term with the option to extend by another five years, and also included a significant equity investment of over a hundred million dollars.

00:17:46.065 --> 00:17:53.238
<v Mike Patten>So really representing significant commitment to the relationship and also the future of of Harbour by AstraZeneca.

00:17:54.205 --> 00:17:56.340
<v Mike Patten>You mentioned this was, you know, five months ago.

00:17:56.642 --> 00:18:06.652
<v Mike Patten>and really that was sort of the marker of deals to come and, and really as we're seeing is, just been the beginning of significant collaborations, not just for Harbour, but also for peers in our region.

00:18:07.152 --> 00:18:32.877
<v Mike Patten>And as, mentioned by, Franck and Ji, I think, you know, I think Ji mentioned about China speed that we're seeing a rapid evolution of, of these deals and the collaborations as those groups are really sophisticated in, in deal making and looking at how the region can really support, you know, Western development and, and other regions that I think we're going to see,  aspects of the stage of the deals as we talked about clinical.

00:18:33.244 --> 00:18:36.981
<v Mike Patten>research and how China and, working in China can help leverage that.

00:18:36.981 --> 00:18:50.796
<v Mike Patten>And I think we'll see more and more of that being a key component of collaborations going forward and that we will really see a real shift away from these transactional one asset programs to multi-asset collaborations as we go forwaR&D.

00:18:51.163 --> 00:18:57.169
<v Mike Patten>And so I, I expect that when we meet again in a year's time, we'll be talking about completely different, deal structures.

00:18:57.502 --> 00:19:06.178
<v Simone Fishburn>So Mike,  that is interesting one of the things that we found when we looked to this analysis as, as Jeff said, it turned out that there were 198 deals.

00:19:06.178 --> 00:19:10.382
<v Simone Fishburn>Right now, about 90% of them were focused on products.

00:19:10.382 --> 00:19:19.458
<v Simone Fishburn>They may be multiple products focused on products, but a growing trend is actually partnering to, what we call enabling technologies.

00:19:19.691 --> 00:19:28.967
<v Simone Fishburn>So you might go license an antibody in order to make an ADC we are starting to see much more different kinds of deals than exactly what you said.

00:19:28.967 --> 00:19:31.470
<v Simone Fishburn>Not just go and in, get the asset go home kind of thing.

00:19:31.803 --> 00:19:33.271
<v Simone Fishburn>Actually, I have a kind of a question for you all.

00:19:33.838 --> 00:19:38.676
<v Simone Fishburn>You know what we hear here all the time, we hear from VCs and we hear from pharmas.

00:19:39.111 --> 00:19:42.314
<v Simone Fishburn>I'm spending much more time on the ground in China.

00:19:42.713 --> 00:19:48.921
<v Simone Fishburn>So in China, are there VCs of pharmas like walking around notably much more than before?

00:19:48.921 --> 00:19:57.296
<v Simone Fishburn>Is it, is it something palpable that you see, is there that kind of energy walking around an interest, you know, when you did your deal, was there a lot of inbound.

00:19:58.396 --> 00:19:59.397
<v Mike Patten>I think absolutely.

00:19:59.397 --> 00:20:04.368
<v Mike Patten>I think, I think everybody is, has some, some presence in China and I think, certainly from.

00:20:04.569 --> 00:20:14.946
<v Mike Patten>my experience, I think you're seeing that companies who don't have an established footprint in China are finding out very quickly that they need to have that to be successful.

00:20:15.380 --> 00:20:18.784
<v Mike Patten>I'm sure Ji, and and Franck have have observations on that as well.

00:20:19.417 --> 00:20:21.886
<v Simone Fishburn>Or they need to come to conference.

00:20:23.121 --> 00:20:27.558
<v Franck Le Deu>It's very clear Simone, and know, uh, being in our position in China know we, we, get.

00:20:27.792 --> 00:20:33.865
<v Franck Le Deu>Request frequently from some of our clients or non clients who ask us, okay, what's the best way to set up a BD team in China?

00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:40.838
<v Franck Le Deu>and we see as well many of our colleagues or ex-colleagues being actually poached or approached to to fill this type of position.

00:20:40.838 --> 00:20:53.317
<v Franck Le Deu>We also see almost on a weekly basis, some of the bigger names hold,  annual biotech conference in China where they actually, you know, bring together the network of biotechs and present what they do as a company, what they want to do.

00:20:53.919 --> 00:20:57.990
<v Franck Le Deu>Which is, as you mentioned, beyond just sourcing particular asset.

00:20:57.990 --> 00:21:07.398
<v Franck Le Deu>It's now about sourcing technology and also the next frontier I think is about partnering to actually impact the way the big pharma works in R&D.

00:21:07.833 --> 00:21:22.513
<v Franck Le Deu>I think there's a lot of interest for some of the global health R&D worldwide to figure out what is it exactly that China has as a secret sauce that could help transform the global R&D organization, which are often seen as a little bit bloated, inefficient.

00:21:22.913 --> 00:21:25.750
<v Franck Le Deu>And maybe in need of an injection of China speed.

00:21:25.884 --> 00:21:29.688
<v Franck Le Deu>And that I think to me, is one of the most interesting topic that will play out in the few years.

00:21:30.221 --> 00:21:41.900
<v Ji Li>just to follow up in terms of the, on the ground, I'm sure Franck can tell you, I mean, the joke is if, if a particular week, if there's not an MNC in town in Shanghai, something is wrong.

00:21:42.267 --> 00:21:43.035
<v Ji Li>That was a joke.

00:21:43.167 --> 00:21:48.740
<v Ji Li>So they go through every week and plus all kinds of local partnering conference.

00:21:48.740 --> 00:21:51.209
<v Ji Li>So, so it's really a super active, scenes there.

00:21:51.442 --> 00:21:55.881
<v Ji Li>But getting back to, regarding,  technology or platform collaboration.

00:21:55.881 --> 00:22:03.587
<v Ji Li>I think if you look at some of the newly emerged platform, Next generation RNAi, in vivo CAR T, you name it.

00:22:03.721 --> 00:22:07.326
<v Ji Li>You know, these are things actually that Chinese biotech are at the forefront.

00:22:08.059 --> 00:22:19.270
<v Ji Li>the gap between them and the, the western counterparts are, you know, I think narrowing or even in many cases, they're leading, you know, in the case of in vivo CAR, I'm sure you guys saw that.

00:22:19.704 --> 00:22:30.615
<v Ji Li>so I think, the ecosystem will continually evolve and, uh, I wouldn't be surprised, like Simone said earlier, the truly first in class asset will emerge and more and more as we go forward.

00:22:31.817 --> 00:22:33.218
<v Josh Berlin>So, Ji, let, let me ask you this.

00:22:33.218 --> 00:22:41.759
<v Josh Berlin>Um, you know, you're, you're dealing with, you know, a lot of clients, you're, you're involved in a lot of negotiations with deals ones, we've seen the press releases on.

00:22:42.527 --> 00:22:45.163
<v Josh Berlin>Sure there are a bunch of others that didn't come, come to fruition.

00:22:45.163 --> 00:22:49.701
<v Josh Berlin>But how are you seeing, um, the deal terms, evolving over time?

00:22:49.934 --> 00:22:59.711
<v Josh Berlin>You know, as the demand has, continued to increase for, finding, assets, de-risked assets in China, you know, is that leading to to China biotechs being able to get better terms?

00:22:59.711 --> 00:23:01.712
<v Josh Berlin>Are there, are there things you're seeing.

00:23:01.946 --> 00:23:09.653
<v Josh Berlin>in the negotiations that are, you know, maybe different now versus, versus a year ago or six months ago in terms of leverage on deal terms.

00:23:10.788 --> 00:23:11.222
<v Ji Li>Yeah, no.

00:23:11.323 --> 00:23:18.195
<v Ji Li>as I said earlier, especially the sort of late clinical stage assets are very rare.

00:23:18.462 --> 00:23:22.733
<v Ji Li>oftentimes, the Chinese biopharma will be able to bring us assets with.

00:23:22.733 --> 00:23:25.403
<v Ji Li>Is hundreds if not thousands of patient experience.

00:23:26.070 --> 00:23:27.838
<v Ji Li>You just don't see that anymore.

00:23:27.972 --> 00:23:33.577
<v Ji Li>most of the small biotech in the western part of world couldn't quite deliver that sort of a data package.

00:23:33.778 --> 00:23:37.749
<v Ji Li>Therefore, that gave us a lot of leverage in the negotiation.

00:23:38.048 --> 00:23:43.555
<v Ji Li>In terms of not just, you know, the pure cash up front, but also the whole package, right?

00:23:43.622 --> 00:23:47.893
<v Ji Li>Oftentimes involve more participation and equity, et cetera, et cetera.

00:23:47.893 --> 00:23:53.798
<v Ji Li>So I think, these late stage assets become increasingly competitive for the MNCs.

00:23:54.132 --> 00:23:57.868
<v Ji Li>And, they all openly talk about there's no more China discount.

00:23:58.502 --> 00:23:58.737
<v Josh Berlin>Yeah.

00:23:58.936 --> 00:23:59.538
<v Josh Berlin>one more trend.

00:23:59.570 --> 00:24:01.105
<v Josh Berlin>You know, Franck, Jeff plugged your, uh.

00:24:01.705 --> 00:24:06.044
<v Josh Berlin>Your LinkedIn site earlier, which I agree is, is one that folks should be, following.

00:24:06.044 --> 00:24:18.056
<v Josh Berlin>But, um, you know, there was a, a, a deal recently that you commented on that, uh, we were also sort of kicking around at BioCentury, which was, the takeout of, the China biotech LaNova by, Sino Biopharma.

00:24:18.056 --> 00:24:22.359
<v Josh Berlin>You know, historically there hasn't been a whole lot of M&A within in the China market.

00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:27.465
<v Josh Berlin>And here, you know, is a, I think a great example of, um, more traditional China pharma.

00:24:27.865 --> 00:24:32.636
<v Josh Berlin>acquiring a China biotech, is that, is that something you guys are expecting to see more of?

00:24:32.636 --> 00:24:34.138
<v Josh Berlin>Is, is that something McKinsey's been following?

00:24:35.173 --> 00:24:45.517
<v Franck Le Deu>it was not a surprise to us to see that type of deal finally come through because, I mean, I can be corrected by Mike, Ji, or Simone, but I think this was actually the first sizable, China-China deal, right?

00:24:45.549 --> 00:24:52.691
<v Franck Le Deu>Uh, as an M&A, I think it's welcome by the industry because it offers another exit for the biotech entrepreneur.

00:24:53.057 --> 00:24:57.528
<v Franck Le Deu>some of those large traditional Chinese pharma companies have very deep pocket.

00:24:58.296 --> 00:25:15.480
<v Franck Le Deu>Many of them are in the process of transitioning from largely, largely generic businesses to innovation businesses, whether they are state on enterprises or private companies like for example, Hengrui, which is one of the most active name and probably ahead of many other companies in terms of making that transformation towards innovation.

00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:23.421
<v Franck Le Deu>So, no, it's not a surprise and it's a welcome, a welcome addition, I guess, to the, ecosystem because we do need a capital market that works.

00:25:23.421 --> 00:25:28.259
<v Franck Le Deu>We do need an m and a market that works, and this cannot just be a channel to the west.

00:25:28.326 --> 00:25:33.498
<v Franck Le Deu>There also needs to be a, a healthy channel to China, ecosystem emerging in terms of transactions.

00:25:34.266 --> 00:25:40.672
<v Ji Li>Actually for the longest time you, you don't see much M&A, within the domestic,  ecosystem.

00:25:40.704 --> 00:25:46.344
<v Ji Li>And just simply because the traditional pharma has really hard time to value these early stage assets.

00:25:47.112 --> 00:25:51.549
<v Ji Li>If you have something very close to the market, they can tell you what would be the market penetration.

00:25:51.549 --> 00:25:54.219
<v Ji Li>Their, they can give you a good, sales forecast.

00:25:54.219 --> 00:25:57.087
<v Ji Li>But for these early stage stuff, they, typically struggle.

00:25:57.388 --> 00:25:57.821
<v Ji Li>So that's

00:25:57.888 --> 00:26:05.963
<v Simone Fishburn>gee, they've been doing, they've been doing early stage deals with western biotechs forever, so they do know how to put a value on them.

00:26:05.997 --> 00:26:12.304
<v Simone Fishburn>They may have a different risk profile or something depending on, I don't know, geopolitics.

00:26:12.470 --> 00:26:15.874
<v Simone Fishburn>But, they've been doing a lot of early stage deals for a long while.

00:26:16.641 --> 00:26:22.346
<v Ji Li>Um, you know, many of these probably are early technology and stuff like that in terms of like pipeline.

00:26:22.580 --> 00:26:25.416
<v Ji Li>if you ask the domestic pharma today, they're most.

00:26:25.983 --> 00:26:29.954
<v Ji Li>Looking for close to market stage, you know, opportunity X China.

00:26:30.355 --> 00:26:32.656
<v Ji Li>so that's why this deal is very significant.

00:26:32.923 --> 00:26:39.530
<v Ji Li>and also it's more significant in light of the very, very hot Hong Kong stock exchange, right?

00:26:39.530 --> 00:26:46.704
<v Ji Li>Because, a company like, you know, but they do have the other paths for exit and they chose to be acquired by a domestic farmer.

00:26:47.605 --> 00:26:54.913
<v Josh Berlin>One, you know, one, one other, hot topic obviously that we haven't talked about yet is, is sort of the NewCo model and, the NewCo deal flow.

00:26:55.180 --> 00:26:56.580
<v Josh Berlin>love to hear your guys' thoughts on that.

00:26:56.580 --> 00:26:59.284
<v Josh Berlin>Mike, I know you guys were involved in the Windward deal, for instance.

00:26:59.384 --> 00:27:06.257
<v Josh Berlin>You any, sort of insights on what people should think about in terms of, opportunities for NewCos versus licensing deal.

00:27:07.057 --> 00:27:07.291
<v Mike Patten>Yeah.

00:27:07.291 --> 00:27:11.796
<v Mike Patten>No, we were very excited to be part of, of Windward and to, to see that company grow.

00:27:12.262 --> 00:27:13.530
<v Mike Patten>the opportunities there.

00:27:13.798 --> 00:27:16.500
<v Mike Patten>I mean, I think, I think there's still opportunities for NewCos.

00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:22.073
<v Mike Patten>I think as you, you've highlighted it in your analysis, obviously the market is, changing again quickly.

00:27:22.073 --> 00:27:26.044
<v Mike Patten>And so the opportunities for groups who would back, NewCos are changing.

00:27:26.044 --> 00:27:27.311
<v Mike Patten>And, and I think that's.

00:27:27.746 --> 00:27:33.951
<v Mike Patten>Also an opportunity for Harbour and we're, you know, we're speaking with groups to really think about what's the next phase for NewCos.

00:27:33.951 --> 00:27:53.605
<v Mike Patten>I think there's still an opportunity there and it's really, completes the circle of the conversation is really that with China biotech, there's a lot of opportunities for flexible deal structures, a lot of synergistic ways of working with venture biotech all over to really ensure that we're progressing innovative therapies for patients.

00:27:53.637 --> 00:28:00.310
<v Mike Patten>And so I think that you'll still see them, but the nature of those NewCos will, will be changing in terms of how.

00:28:00.845 --> 00:28:05.450
<v Mike Patten>the underlying deal structure of maybe licensing the stage that they happen.

00:28:05.683 --> 00:28:16.060
<v Mike Patten>And as we've also talked about how the nature of those collaborations and the involvement potentially of the Chinese biotech or Asian biotech will be is that NewCo matures as well.

00:28:16.294 --> 00:28:22.666
<v Mike Patten>so that's I think a, an interesting space, uh, to watch and, and hopefully we'll have some more news from Harbour in the coming, in the coming months.

00:28:23.201 --> 00:28:28.539
<v Ji Li>the other new phenomena in recent, because of .  The Hong Kong stock exchange performance.

00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:32.042
<v Ji Li>Many of the China private biotech are trying to go public.

00:28:32.376 --> 00:28:37.182
<v Ji Li>as Franck know, there is a strict, you know, guideline in terms of what they need to do to qualify.

00:28:37.715 --> 00:28:45.522
<v Ji Li>So therefore, that's starting to affect if they would do a partnership to give away their lead asset because they need to have like a phase two asset.

00:28:45.990 --> 00:28:51.296
<v Ji Li>you know, so sometime they will say, Hey, we need to keep our lead asset because we're qualified to go public.

00:28:51.563 --> 00:29:02.039
<v Ji Li>So that becomes, you know, whether that's a NewCo or a, a regular partnership that's starting to have an effect on, you know, the management and, and, and board of these company when they think about partnership.

00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.275
<v Ji Li>So it'll be interesting to see how this evolve.

00:29:05.175 --> 00:29:08.880
<v Jeff Cranmer>Yeah, it's, been a great year for IPOs in Hong Kong.

00:29:08.913 --> 00:29:12.349
<v Jeff Cranmer>there's also been some activity in Korea, and I think together they outstrip.

00:29:12.517 --> 00:29:19.324
<v Jeff Cranmer>what's been happening on Nasdaq and how's, how's the environment for follow on financing in Hong Kong?

00:29:19.324 --> 00:29:19.590
<v Jeff Cranmer>Ji..

00:29:19.990 --> 00:29:21.358
<v Ji Li>Well, that's an interesting thing.

00:29:21.358 --> 00:29:25.829
<v Ji Li>You know, Franck, maybe you have more data point in that regard when you guys do your analysis.

00:29:26.431 --> 00:29:30.734
<v Ji Li>I think as you said, this is coming out of a multi-year goal, right?

00:29:30.734 --> 00:29:43.448
<v Ji Li>I don't know where is the expectation is when these follow up financing started to happen because, you know, many of the stock, I look at it this year, they not only, double, they triple, they quadruple from their loan.

00:29:43.515 --> 00:29:49.953
<v Ji Li>So, you know, at some point I would think they will leverage the market to, to put in some, uh, money from the market.

00:29:49.953 --> 00:29:50.121
<v Ji Li>Yeah.

00:29:50.288 --> 00:29:51.789
<v Franck Le Deu>Yeah, no, we don't have data yet.

00:29:51.789 --> 00:29:53.625
<v Franck Le Deu>We, our team is still working on the report.

00:29:53.625 --> 00:29:55.960
<v Franck Le Deu>We'll present in, in Shanghai end of October.

00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:58.695
<v Franck Le Deu>So you have to be at the Summit, I guess, too.

00:29:58.930 --> 00:30:00.365
<v Franck Le Deu>It an answer to that question.

00:30:01.098 --> 00:30:01.699
<v Jeff Cranmer>Excellent.

00:30:01.732 --> 00:30:02.733
<v Simone Fishburn>a layout for you that.

00:30:02.733 --> 00:30:03.334
<v Simone Fishburn>Jeff.

00:30:03.401 --> 00:30:04.469
<v Jeff Cranmer>That's a layup for me.

00:30:04.469 --> 00:30:05.769
<v Jeff Cranmer>I mean, uh, gosh.

00:30:05.769 --> 00:30:07.305
<v Jeff Cranmer>Uh, this has been a lot of fun.

00:30:07.337 --> 00:30:09.140
<v Jeff Cranmer>Um, I, I would just like to say, uh.

00:30:09.473 --> 00:30:11.843
<v Jeff Cranmer>There's still time to register for the conference.

00:30:12.042 --> 00:30:18.516
<v Jeff Cranmer>it kicks off on October 22nd and it runs until the 24th.

00:30:18.516 --> 00:30:22.386
<v Jeff Cranmer>If you can't make it to Shanghai, you can register to attend digitally.

00:30:22.653 --> 00:30:28.960
<v Jeff Cranmer>head to BioCentury China to register and learn more about the program.

00:30:29.093 --> 00:30:32.029
<v Jeff Cranmer>I am still recruiting, presenting companies.

00:30:32.029 --> 00:30:32.763
<v Jeff Cranmer>We'd love to.

00:30:33.364 --> 00:30:44.275
<v Jeff Cranmer>get some companies from the U.S., from Europe, from Canada, out to see firsthand what's going on, and we pride ourselves on having the right people in the room at our conferences.

00:30:44.275 --> 00:30:53.917
<v Jeff Cranmer>And it'd be a great place to talk deals, to talk financings and, you know, you get to meet Josh and talk tennis with Simone on top of everything else.

00:30:54.117 --> 00:30:57.755
<v Jeff Cranmer>And, and Josh didn't we just add a, pre-event networking.

00:30:58.088 --> 00:30:58.589
<v Josh Berlin>that's right.

00:30:58.623 --> 00:30:59.723
<v Jeff Cranmer>what, what, what is that?

00:30:59.723 --> 00:31:02.559
<v Jeff Cranmer>It's like visiting some kind of cool research park, isn't it?

00:31:03.193 --> 00:31:03.760
<v Josh Berlin>we will, yes.

00:31:03.760 --> 00:31:13.270
<v Josh Berlin>So on the first day we're gonna, our first morning before the the conference starts, we're gonna take a, uh, a bus tour of Zhangjiang Park, which is top science, the technology park there in Shanghai.

00:31:13.671 --> 00:31:15.839
<v Josh Berlin>you know, we're big believers in, you gotta see it.

00:31:15.973 --> 00:31:17.407
<v Josh Berlin>I, think you really have to see.

00:31:17.775 --> 00:31:19.210
<v Josh Berlin>what's happening in China?

00:31:19.210 --> 00:31:20.144
<v Josh Berlin>See the scale.

00:31:20.545 --> 00:31:28.553
<v Josh Berlin>See how, so many different companies, from MNCs to China, biotechs to CDMOs, are all located there in the park.

00:31:28.553 --> 00:31:31.288
<v Josh Berlin>So, that's a benefit of, attending the event.

00:31:31.288 --> 00:31:38.796
<v Josh Berlin>And, as,  Franck also alluded to, you know, McKinsey, which is our longtime insights partner, will be releasing its conference report.

00:31:39.029 --> 00:31:42.133
<v Josh Berlin>You know, always a lot of data that folks like to get their hands on.

00:31:42.432 --> 00:31:45.269
<v Josh Berlin>So that'll also be a, a key feature of the event.

00:31:45.269 --> 00:31:46.436
<v Josh Berlin>And, you know, lots of.

00:31:46.738 --> 00:31:51.075
<v Josh Berlin>Networking and, and opportunities for partnering and learning as well.

00:31:51.075 --> 00:31:54.746
<v Josh Berlin>So we hope to see you out in, uh, Shanghai, October 22 to 24.

00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:57.248
<v Jeff Cranmer>Excellent and lot, lots of VCs will be there.

00:31:57.414 --> 00:31:58.750
<v Jeff Cranmer>And this year, Josh, right?

00:31:58.750 --> 00:32:00.884
<v Jeff Cranmer>And, quite a few Pharma, BD and L people.

00:32:01.286 --> 00:32:07.858
<v Josh Berlin>We have, an unbelievable, amount of, uh, Western, VCs and biopharma execs coming out this year.

00:32:08.125 --> 00:32:21.338
<v Josh Berlin>And then, uh, as always, sort of a who's who of China biotech, VCs and, and CEOs and, all the MNCs, the, the big pharma will be there both at the BD&L level as well as the, uh, the China GM level.

00:32:21.739 --> 00:32:22.272
<v Jeff Cranmer>Excellent.

00:32:22.272 --> 00:32:27.612
<v Jeff Cranmer>Well, I think this is a, a great point to thank our guests and, uh, sign off.

00:32:27.845 --> 00:32:41.092
<v Jeff Cranmer>Mike, I wanted to mention that we recently did an analysis, Kind of off the back of Simone's analysis that looked at who are the top, deal makers and Harbour was number one  the China biotech side.

00:32:41.092 --> 00:32:42.961
<v Jeff Cranmer>And, and, uh, was it AstraZeneca?

00:32:42.961 --> 00:32:44.561
<v Jeff Cranmer>Simone, that was, uh, number one.

00:32:44.662 --> 00:32:44.761
<v Jeff Cranmer>Yeah.

00:32:44.761 --> 00:32:45.563
<v Jeff Cranmer>Ji shaking his

00:32:45.963 --> 00:32:52.036
<v Simone Fishburn>AstraZeneca by some way, but I actually, in terms of the licensees, of course, GSK was second.

00:32:52.269 --> 00:32:53.270
<v Simone Fishburn>I actually wanna make the point there.

00:32:53.270 --> 00:32:56.240
<v Simone Fishburn>BioNTech have also done a whole bunch of deals.

00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:58.710
<v Simone Fishburn>So they're not a pharma, but they dealing like a pharma.

00:32:58.742 --> 00:32:59.443
<v Simone Fishburn>I gotta tell you.

00:32:59.978 --> 00:33:04.214
<v Jeff Cranmer>And Biocytogen, again, on the China side, very, very active.

00:33:04.214 --> 00:33:09.153
<v Jeff Cranmer>Well, Mike, Franck, Ji thank you so much for sharing your insights.

00:33:09.386 --> 00:33:09.787
<v Jeff Cranmer>Franck.

00:33:09.820 --> 00:33:11.422
<v Jeff Cranmer>Looking forward to the report.

00:33:11.422 --> 00:33:11.990
<v Jeff Cranmer>definitely.

00:33:11.990 --> 00:33:12.022
<v Jeff Cranmer>Uh.

00:33:12.589 --> 00:33:17.394
<v Jeff Cranmer>Put an extra pot of coffee on for, uh, Fangning and Josie and the team.

00:33:17.595 --> 00:33:19.797
<v Jeff Cranmer>And,  Ji uh, hope to talk soon.

00:33:20.097 --> 00:33:21.766
<v Jeff Cranmer>And as always, Simone Josh.

00:33:21.833 --> 00:33:22.767
<v Jeff Cranmer>thanks for joining.

00:33:22.767 --> 00:33:29.973
<v Jeff Cranmer>And a special thanks to, Kendall Square Orchestra, which provides the music for all of BioCentury podcasts.