After the Laundry the Ecstasy: Ajahn Chah, Enlightenment, & a Dhammic Life’s Legacy | Jack Kornfield

Welcome to Clear Mountain.
We're interviewing Jack Cornfield today
and he gave us an hour and 45 minutes of
his time. So, we divided the interview
into two parts um to honor both. For
those of you who don't know Jack, we'll
give a brief introduction. Our guest
today is Jack Kornfield, a pioneering
force in bringing terabat Buddhism and
mindfulness more broadly to the west.
After serving in the Peace Corps in the
late 1960s, Jack trained as a monk under
our teachers teacher Ajin Sha and for
varying lengths of time also met and
trained with other monastic luminaries
such as Mahasi Sieda, Ajin Jamyan,
Tonpulu Sieda, Ajin Buddhadasa and Ajin
Mahabua. As a co-founder of the Insight
Meditation Society in 1975 and Spirit
Rock Meditation Center in 1987, Jack has
spent decades bring bridging Eastern
tradition with his background in
clinical psychology. He is the author of
several modern spiritual classics
including Living Dharma, formerly Living
Buddhist Masters, A Path with Heart,
After Ecstasy, The Laundry, and The Wise
Heart. His most recent book is a
collection of stories all in this
together. And on a personal note, Jack
was my door to Longor Cha. I in the
later years of college uh got a hold of
six cassette tapes of his teachings and
it's part of what brought me to robes.
So we hope you enjoy.
Woohoo. Okay. So you asked me a question
about when I said that I had ordained a
number of times.
Um my first ordination was at the royal
temple in um Sakonakon which is a couple
of provinces over in Ean or the
northeast from Ubon. I don't know if you
ever been there, but I'd been in the
Peace Corps working on
medical teams, mostly malaria, a little
bit typhoid and stuff. And um that was
the closest big temple and my Thai
friends and stuff said ordained there.
I'd been visiting Ajamancha
um and told him I wanted to become a
monk and he said sure. I'm sure inside
he rolled his eyes like will this guy
ever show up again? But I anyway I
ordained there and I went down to Wapong
after that. And how I got there and met
Ajin to I can tell you if it interests
you. Anyway, I was a monk for a few
years at Wapong and then I spent about
15 months at Wii wake with a Burmese
teacher um uh Ajanasapa who had been
sent by Mahasi Saido in 2000
the after the 2500th Giant Buddhist
celebration to represent the Burmese
tradition um and the king sent him to
Chonbury where he sent started a
monastery. I also went down spent a bit
of time with Buddha Dasa and with um
um Ajan
at Watau
uh with Christopher Titmas and a bunch
of people in the Tamarat with Ajan. I'll
think of his name in a second. I'm
pressing it. Anyway, um
>> Dadaro. Yeah. Then in 1976
I was in Bulgaya.
We were teaching Joseph Goldstein and so
forth and I just missed being in robes.
So I uh went to the Thai temple and said
I'm here for a while. Can I ordain? And
they said sure you know since I speak
Thai and Lao and whatever and I did not
for that long a month or month if I was
a sire. I wasn't a big coupoo. they
would have let me be a big coup, you
know, they don't really measure it that
way. Um, and then after that, oh yeah, I
went to Burma in that period where you
couldn't go, but I went with Josie
Stanton who was the um wife of the
American ambassador to Thailand for a
while and I ordained it to Sunland
Monastery there of Sunland Sido. He's
the intense breathing guy.
for like an hour or two breathe and you
know um then I also went back to
Thailand after teaching in 1980
whatever it was maybe 82
um
and I wanted after 10 years of my time
being a monk in Thailand I thought what
will that be like I want to learn some
more to see
so I went to W Mahahat in Bangkok and
got them to ordain me. I had kept my
robe and bowl and then I went out to
Wab. I think somebody put me on the
train to war in um and said I want to
stay for a while which I did for a few
months. Um and again um Anjun Sha being
the way he was or Law whoever you want
to call him said okay you can come but
you're a visiting monk you don't sit
with us. He, you know, he he was messing
with me the way he would with everybody
when he felt like it. But I stayed there
for a while. Um I think I ordained
another time, too. But anyway, so that's
part of my checkered history.
>> You know, Jack, if you got another one
in you, we're starting a monastery up
here. So just uh
>> I uh Thank you. Thank you. I
>> Yeah. Are you in the woods? Where are
you?
>> Uh well, we're in the process of uh
getting a monastery. um our lay
organization has put in an offer and
yeah out in North Bend which is 90 acres
of very wooded property. So it would be
a forest monastery. So
>> and where are you now that you're not in
the forest?
>> Well, we've been allowed to stay in two
little huts uh kind of across the Puet
Sound from Seattle for the last 4 years.
These kind lay people offered to host us
for 2 weeks or and it turned into four
years. We do check in out again that
we're still allowed to be.
>> Are you out in the country then? Is that
you're sort of in the forest?
>> Right now we're more it's sort of the
suburbs with a little bit of forest
mixed in, but we're close enough. Um we
take the fast for every morning for alms
round in Pike Place. Um, and then for
these last four years, we've just been
kind of waiting for things to coales
enough that we could start a kind of the
actual monastery official, but doing a
lot of, you know, keeping all of our
monk rules and going on alms round
actually at Pike Place Market.
>> Oh, that's fantastic. That's totally
fantastic. And no one put a little
forest in your bowl like happened for
Summato then, huh? You didn't get and
you remember that story, right? when
>> that's how Jhurst came to be actually he
was doing his alms round and this guy
came and said what are you and he said
I'm a forest monk guy said well I'm a
forest I don't know what to do with it
you want to go down to so that was the
beginning of jitterhurst
>> anyway okay we're talking and this is
your podcast apparently being modern
monks that you are is that correct am I
in the right ballpark
>> you are you are Right. Since we don't
have a monastery, we did ordain in the
Ajan Cha tradition and for the last four
years have been the monastery has been
online in a sense with YouTube. We've
been interviewing a lot of our teachers
plus other teachers whose books we've
seen in the monasteries that we looked
at including your books, including
Joseph's book, Sharon's books, and
interviewing both interviewing both
monastic teachers, lay teachers,
terabata teachers, and outside of the
Terraata tradition. So being able to
interview you is a a big a big
>> apostates the ones outside the tradition
all of them. Huh. So so um
yeah what's the purpose of this podcast
then? You want to talk who are who are
we talking to and for what good or
nefarious reason have you got? hopefully
good is uh our community is pretty
widespread and
we one one thing we've seen
as part of our role is being able to be
a bridge between the ancient tradition
and people who are really um touching
different realms of Buddhism in uh
modernity um or occasionally
intellectuals of other you know of
another nature we've interviewed Noah
Harari but but Jack I think the reason
we really want to interview you,
interview you was um I think a lot of
like the the dharmic ground that we
stepped into was um kind of in part
seeded by you and so we wanted to
actually get a chance just to ask you
about kind of the roots of that and your
trajectory and then modern Buddhism
according to Jack as well and and how
you've interacted with some of the the
current kind of uh notes that are moving
through Western Buddhism as a right now
and people's anxieties as well like how
what kind of wisdom um we can offer
people when they're going through a lot
of anxiety at the moment is in in
addition to that and yeah you really do
straddle you know a lot of these worlds
the world of traditional terraata
Buddhism with a broader Buddhist world
the world of Buddhism as it was in Asia
or as it was in Thailand and how it is
coming to America in preparation for
speaking with you reread a number of
your books the wise part bringing the
dharma home. Uh but also I reread uh
after the ecstasy the laundry and in
that in that book you've got a line
which is kind of the crux of it that
enlightenment does exist. It is possible
to awaken. There's one further truth
however they don't last. There is no
such thing as enlightened retirement.
And it's interesting. I think we do the
book is somewhat frustrating and
delightfully and I think skillfully in a
certain way ambiguous about a kind of
central point which does uh is kind of
important in terms of like talking about
your huge role of yeah there being
modern lehhamma teachers is this view
according to you know classic terravada
of you know it is possible to fully put
an end to greed anger and delusion And
that's the definition of of
enlightenment of nibana.
>> It is one of the definitions. That's
correct.
>> One of the definitions and fully able to
put an end to the psychological dooka
which we add to physical duca and
>> sounds good.
>> It sound it sounds great and it is
something which like ajancha in
traditional terra teachers taught you
know ajancha would say when you come to
study the dharma you study it and it has
an end. there is an end like is an end
and the interesting thing about your
statement is okay there's no
enlightenment retirement like Acha or
someone else if they do attain
enlightenment or attain stream entry um
they still are humans you know they
still have to do laundry they still have
to do things like that but do you ever
either in your own mind or what you
teach others kind of be more decisive on
that point like is there
>> I'm I'm very decisive for the day I
might change tomorrow but okay so this
is a really deep question um and the
essence of the terra teaching and the
way it's also promagated in Burma and so
forth you're really talking about full
enlightenment our hardship where you
uproot greed hatred and delusion right
cuz for a stream enter or something if
you take that phrase it doesn't doesn't
last what it means is you have your
stream entry awakening but then you can
still be a mess in other ways, right? Or
you still can be at the effect of, as
you know from the 10 fedters, there's
still anger, there's still greed, all
that. Okay. So, you're you're really
asking about full enlightenment. I just
want to frame the question accurately.
>> Okay. Yep. Yep. That that works. We
could also talk about stream entry, but
yeah, frame.
>> Yeah, that's that's another thing. We
could do that if you want. And I got
push back. I don't think that book sold
as well and I was sort of sorry about it
not for the you know the income but
because of that statement cuz a lot of
people read that and then closed it you
know and I probably would rewrite the
statement in a different way now but
here's what I understand
first of all I have not met a single
person and God knows in this industry we
keep our eyes open to see who are the
swamies and llamas and mamas and gurus
and rimches and ajans inside house and
who's the really arot fully enlightened
guy you know and I met people like ajan
mahabua they said was an arhot he had
fair temper as well just to say who
knows what was going on in him as the
Buddha said you can't judge from the
outside
but I haven't met anybody where I have
seen never the arising of anger or greed
or grasping. I just haven't seen it. And
therefore
um I take it as an ideal
and a beautiful ideal but then you say
well then what is this in life? You
don't have that. What do you have left?
Okay there is enlightenment. And I say
that there and it's not just that it's
temporary. There's a way in some way to
live in an enlightened consciousness.
It just isn't of it just doesn't play
out exactly the way the terraodins have
said it. And I'll give you a couple of
examples. Okay.
I spent three years going to visit
Narodat Maharaj in Mumbai, Bombay. He
you probably read I am that his book
these dialogues and he was certainly one
of the most liberated people. I mean
Christian Birdie was liberated but he
was a schold and it turned out he also
had this yearslong affair with the wife
of his manager and there was the book
called Christian Birdie in his shadow.
Niscarodat
I felt was as free as any being I'd ever
met. really free, but
he could get pissed off or and then some
there's a dialogue and there was
somebody, you know, and I was there for
some of those. Hey, you know, your
breakfast wasn't served on time and you
and you're kind of upset at your wife or
your granddaughter or something. What
kind of liberation is that?
>> And he laughed and he said, "It appears
on the screen and it disappears and it
has nothing to do with who I am."
Somebody said to him, "You're, you know,
last time I visited him, you're 82. You
know, what do you think about dying?"
He was sort of like Fritz Pearls and
Krishna Birdie together. He could get
very kind of forceful and
um defiant if you will. And he said,
"No, no, keep saying that. You You
insult me. You say I am this body made
of japatis and dah. You say this is who
I am. How dare you? You know in that
tone
um he said who I am is not this body,
not this consciousness. I am beyond all
that. You talk about dharma. Dharma is
something you talk about. I am beyond
all of that. Time and space all that
dissolves. That's who I am. Nothing can
be born and nothing can die when you
understand that this is who you are.
I said with the Dalai Lama, somebody
says,
"Do you ever get angry?" I said, "Yeah,
once in a while."
And we all like smile like, "Oh my god,
if cuz he's as cool as you get." Really?
He's one of us, you know? Okay. Mahasi's
out there and you have the you teach
with the fan in front of you in Burma so
you don't show your teeth and our heart
doesn't show his teeth. I mean it's all
that's all kind of mythological stuff
but actually there is a liberation this
arrogoda
had it in the sense that he was not he
wasn't identified with his role
particularly or his thoughts I mean
there were all those times like kung fa
you know coming back and trying to
convert all the westerners to
Christianity you know this great story
and you know in the in the western
monastery and them all marching over and
complaining and he smiles. Maybe they're
maybe she's right. You know, there's so
little attachment. He was attached to
something. He was attached to the monk's
staying that the monastic life was
better than the lay life. He and I
reflected on that like why was he saying
freedom, freedom, no attachment and that
the vaniah I got that's the training.
Okay, you do that and he made it clear
that you do the vania to learn
surrender. You do the monk's rules to
learn to step outside of me and mine and
my grasping and then you're free. Okay.
If I peace standing up or sitting down,
whatever the rules are, I can do that.
It's not about me. And I'm this about
2,600 years of the exist oldest existing
order. I can do that. But you know, he
said monastic life was better.
>> See, there you are. you guys. And my
understanding is that if he said it was
the same, which is well, the Zen
question is same or different, right?
And the Zen answer, just to give you a
little heads up, is yes.
Same or different? Yes, cuz it is
different and you're living it
differently. And at the same time, one
isn't more enlightened than the other.
But if he said that, there were a bunch
of people there that would have left.
And part of his job when things were
tough was to keep people, you know,
actually sitting with the fire of their
own body in mind until they really felt
free. And then if they wanted to leave
or not, it wasn't an issue. But the so I
just understood it in that way. So
liberation
and enlightenment
is
a shift of consciousness where there's
no longer identification with this body
and mind and conditioning. You have it,
you embody it, you live it. Who you are
is
the play of universal consciousness
itself.
You know and when Ajan man talks about
turning back to become the awareness the
one who knows
um and the language from Lumpa was jet
dur have you heard that phrase which is
the phrase that that means the original
mind the original consciousness
from that place
this is play
and it doesn't mean there isn't great
suffering but from that place you're not
identified and you're not caught. So,
you get to use it and embody it. Now,
for myself, I can still get caught some,
but way less than I used to be, but I
still can. But here's the best part. So,
what?
I don't harm people, you know. Um, I
mean, I go to see Ramdas some years ago.
We were very close. And this happened
and then I got afraid. I thought it was
really chill with death and they then I
passed out in front of all these people
and I had all these neurological
problems and they said you're going to
die this year. It's happening quickly.
Your body's shaking and a lot of tremor.
Um and this particular like ALS you'll
also have before you die a lot of
dementia. Now I imagined lying there
dying you know saying hey it's okay I'll
see you just a body not a but the
dementia part I was not chilled with and
I got scared
um it's happening quickly and my
daughter was there so I went to talk to
Ramas and he laughed he said oh yeah I
flunked that course a few times myself
and there was something so liberating so
effing liberating about him saying that
because at the end of his life. He was
really free. He was re He was all love.
He loved everything. I love the floor
and the ceiling. I love breakfast. I
also love the garbage. I love, you know,
I love the people in front of me. He was
in his wheelchair. 20 years, stroke,
couldn't move part of his body. picked
up as he said I went around the world
building save it foundation and you know
helping remove blindness for millions of
people with our surgeries and you know
doing all this great work he said and
serving which is what the word save it
means he said and now people have to
wipe my butt and pick me up he said and
it's it's so much easier to save the
world than to have people wipe your butt
to say you want to talk about a
practice. But there he was in his
wheelchair toward the end of his life
and he'd had a lot of infections and
physical problems and this person
asked wheeling along with him, are you
in pain? And he said yes, which he was
regularly.
And then he paused and he said, I love
my pain.
which was an amazing thing to say, you
know,
or you see the Dalai Lama talking to the
Tibetans who walk over the mountains.
Um, and they get to see him, the special
dispensation every week if someone gets
over the Himalayas to see his holiness,
you know, and it's like the greatest
blessing. And they'll tell the stories
and he'll hold their hands and he'll
weep.
Now, the Burmese wouldn't say that was
enlightened. You know, you're supposed
to sit there with a fan in front and no
emotions or something. Those are all our
fantasies.
>> Um, but wisdom is really about
liberation and inner freedom. And that's
what Ajunk Shaw taught. He didn't
emphasize, he would talk about no greed,
no hatred, and delusion, which is the
experience when you're not identified.
It doesn't mean it doesn't arise. It's
like mad. Yeah, but has nothing to do
with me. Um,
>> so there, how about that, baby? How
about that for an answer?
>> You want to know about enlightenment?
I'm trying to tell you.
>> Yeah,
>> we could go on. we could if we had
another two hours. But
>> no, Jack, that that was really um and
like I know we've kept you for a while,
but before going into a lightning round
um I want to kind of drill down a little
more on this one because from you know I
know there's a story of Longport Shaw um
someone asking it's like the palm reader
and asking saying you have a lot of
anger and he says I have it but I don't
pick it up.
>> Right. And and from my perspective like
what you're saying it does align with my
understanding of of of terraada. I mean
not maybe the the fantasy of what an
enlightened being is but the polycanon
says that um the five condas aggregates
uh affected by craving are the
>> but how you're articulating like long
cha's navigation of these or nisarodata
um it's almost like beings kind of
putting on these these clothes for a
moment to for the sake of you know for
the sake of beings around them as well
is is Do you understand that there does
come a point though where the heart
really there's nothing for these things
to land on anymore and that isn't
unshakable
>> you know you are the unshakable is
absolutely true argod was unshakable I
think loom paw cha was pretty much
unshakable that part's cool the other
part of your sentence though is still
kind of in the stickiness of you know
the old school ideas of things there is
an unshakable freedom Um, and stuff
happens and so what? It has nothing to
do with us. You can't harm people that
you know that it's not it it doesn't go
to that level. You just can't do it. But
it's Yeah.
Still got I don't pick it up. The
anger's there. So what? You're human.
Yeah. But I want to pause. I don't want
to go through it. But I know there are
two or three other major changes that we
have made for dharma in the west and I'm
just kind of reflecting to name them
beside you know shifting from patriarchy
including women and including modern
psychology and lay teachers and team
teaching and um bringing in
almost all our teachings are now I love
Ramdas's phrase loving awareness
because that's the phrase mindful loving
awareness that brings together meta and
and attention
um and bringing together the traditions
the nonduel cuz Ajan some way was a
non-dual teacher even though people
don't see that cuz they all they see all
the outer form but his spirit was quite
non-dual you know then with the
systematic teachings which also fit some
people and it's totally fine
um teacher trainings. Um okay, there are
some others I'll tell you later.
>> Well, no, I appreciate that. In bringing
the dharma home, you mention uh shared
practice, democratization, feminization,
and integration as four main uh
>> right. So those are two more that
instead of okay you go to the monastery
or whatever that your life is your
practice and that's sort of taught there
but it's very much divided in the
terravada countries the real people are
up in the front of the room
the next class down are the women who
are in the back cooking and wearing
white um although it happens on full
moon and no one days and there's you
know hundreds of people in that big
salah that the real yogis are some of
those old ladies in the back. They're
are killer yogis and they're sort of
looking at the young monks and you know
like their pets adopting and cheering
them on. But that you know that but
there is that whole hierarchy and
integration is a big piece of it. Um to
say where you are is your dharma you
know and it helps to go on retreat and
it helps to visit a monastery. It helps
to have a practice. It helps to take
precepts and take refuge. Another really
important thing we've done is really
highlight the bodhicatta vows and engage
Buddhism as part of the it's always been
there. Here's the Buddha standing in the
road saying, "Hey, stop marching your
army toward this direction. It would be
better if you didn't make war." Not very
often, but it did happen to be his home
kingdom. So, he had reason to stand
there. But anyway, so that kind of
integration democratization not having I
mean I teach
um and I really love doing questions and
responses.
Okay, because um and when I was a young
teacher, I did questions and answers.
Joseph loved that. Um
because I thought that was what a
teacher was supposed to do.
Now people raise their hand and my most
common response is what makes you ask
because they might say tell me about
karma I could talk for two hours there's
aosi kama it's the kind of kama that
happens um for an arot that doesn't come
to fruition there's a whole other
meaning of it in poly and all those
weird texts and stuff but anyway
what what made me bring it up is to say
see if I can reel it back. Where what
was the point previous to trying to say
that? Um, okay. So, I'll ask what's what
makes you ask and they might cuz I could
go on about karma for a long time. all
the teach and they'll say, "Well, my
sister committed suicide last week or my
cousin won the lottery or my daughter is
sick with it or the school where I'm
work now lost all its funding and I'm so
upset and immediately you're in
relationship to something that's real
for them. They're suffering and their
life." So, there's that. Then I'll go on
with 10 other questions. Um, how do you
feel that in your body or your mind?
What states come up when you're in that
when you, you know, with that person
that died or that, you know, where do
you hold it in your body? Close your
eyes, feel that. What happens if you
bring in loving kindness to the
suffering you're having? Um, what lesson
does it have to teach you? Um, then I
might have them open their eyes and say,
"What else have others in the room
learned?" sort of crowdsourcing wisdom.
And there's a whole way of teaching
that's very different than the sage on
the stage thing that you see in Buddhist
countries where there's oh the sadel aan
hottatsi person that really engages
um the wisdom of that
kind of communion with another person.
And so when we talk about
democratization, yes, there is a it's
not hold held by one person or even by
the council of elders, but the lay
people get listened to and all of that,
but also the wisdom isn't held on one
side of the stage.
Jack, I feel like a lot of what you've
laid out is this movement from from the
individual and the emphasis on it and to
kind of this movement towards communion
and relationality in in what you've kind
of managed to raise up and and certainly
like we found coming to Seattle this
motion towards community and connecting
people. There's a sanctity that happens
in that space.
And before we go on to you know our
final questions because we've kept you
for a long time. I I wanted to ask about
two relational questions. One is can you
talk about your relationship now to the
Buddha like what what it feels like in
your heart like how that's changed over
the years. And then the second is if you
had to say something to the listeners um
just as a spiritual friend uh in this
time where a lot of people are dealing
with anger and anxiety and fear. What
would you say? Um, so those two
relationships, the Buddha and then then
the your Cali and Amita who are
listening.
>> Hold on one second. I want to look in
the look in the cabinet behind me.
>> The answer to your question actually
also has to do with my relationship with
Ajan Cha. Um, so I did a book
I did a couple books. One of them was
the teachings of the Buddha and I took
my favorite texts from the different
sutras and then also from Mahayana texts
that were you know like the third Zen
patriarch or ancestor whatever we're
supposed to call them and things like
put it in and it's a beautiful book in
the dharma and it is like weapons grade
it's really good stuff
then I did a book called the Buddha is
still teaching and I took the best page
or two from the best teachers in English
in the west. So it was a page from
Suzuki Roshi on beginner's mind as the
essence of Zen or from Ticknot Han you
know speaking about his poem about I am
the pirate and the sea I'm all these
things and beyond and so forth and
Joseph Goldstein's beautiful passage
about looking out at
the big dipper and then realizing there
is no dipper we're just creating it with
the mind and the self is created very
beautiful teachings, right?
And then just sort of for the fun of it
at one day I held the two in my hands,
the Buddhist teachings and the modern
ones the best and they were beautiful.
And it's like if you put them in a
scale, the Buddhist teachings went
thunkk. They were just so
straightforward and direct and simple. I
don't have a relationship to the Buddha
particularly
just because I'm not I mean I can be
devotional in some way and I when I
first went to Rangon and I was in monks
and I don't know if if you've ever
walked around the Schuagon but it's this
enormous like Eiffel Tiz towerized
golden pagod with all these Burmese
pilgrims and lights and gorgeous and I
was there and I'd been in silence
practicing for a long time before it and
the people who were guiding me said
inside is the Buddha's walking stick and
some of the locks of hair when he shaved
his head. Now, of course, it could be
all apocryphal. I'm not any but I was
thrilled somehow cuz it felt like a
connection with something that obviously
happened or you wouldn't be in those
weird dresses that you have 2,600 years
later. It was so powerful. So the the
Buddha in some way also represents a
mind beyond what I can even imagine when
we talk about enlightenment. Just
extraordinary. And I met the coolest
ones around now. And the Buddha I think
somehow was beyond that a lot. Ajancha
still teaches me. I think I wish I could
have conversation with him. But you know
as I said I went back a bunch of times
not just as a monk. I visited him in the
hospital and then the monastery when he
got out after he had water on the brain
and they put a shunt in and I was you
know sitting with him and I said Law you
know meanwhile I've been teaching for I
don't know 5 or 10 years I said you kept
telling us about old age and sickness
and death that was one of his themes
right from early on I said you told us
he looked at me he got
vaguely upset in is away and he said,
"Don't say that so lightly. You know,
you're young. It's one thing to say."
And I was in the hospital a couple weeks
ago and I thought, "I'm chill. I can do
this. I'll meditate or whatever." But
about the fourth or fifth day there
where they're poking you and waking you
up at night and taking blood and I said,
"Ooh, this is not fun. This is actually
a lot of suffering." Anyway, but I talk
with him. I imagine what he would say or
whatever. Maybe he does say it. Who
knows? All that's since we make it all
up anyway. Um but he being the wisest
person represents that kind of freedom.
And the irony is that he had that
freedom and represented it within a very
strict container of a you know strict
vaniah forest monastery. All right. So
you asked about my relationship with the
Buddha and Lump and then your second
question was my
>> if if you had in on that same relational
note if you had one message to give to
those listening who are kind of dealing
with the fear of politics and the world
what would you tell your the cali who?
Well, there's a couple of things to say.
First, when I lived at W Pap,
um, there were the planes that would fly
overhead because there was the war in
the next province in Cambodia and in the
next province in Laos. And I visited the
front in Laos. I went to Vietnam during
the war right before I ordained and went
to the monastery of the coconut monk who
was this peacemaking monk in the middle
of the Meong Delta with all these monks
who had robes that said we will fight no
more and helicopter gunships and all of
that stuff happening and people would
come to Wabong and say what about the
wars don't you can't do something right
and he would say wars come and go It's
part of the nature of suffering in the
human mind when we're caught in greed
and hatred. We want to make a place of
peace so that people are reminded
that there's something bigger than the
wars that come and go, that there's
something timeless that is also possible
that right really exists in the human
heart. Um, and that's what we are. We're
that we're the island of peace that
remind you can you know in the war zones
people will do anything to survive.
They'll steal things from the temple to
sell them to get food. They'll live you
know they'll hurt one another
you could lose your wallet your gold
watch and some wouldn't find it and put
it on the altar and say who lost this.
So part of the answer is um
the long game
that we are in a a very difficult time
and anxiety is natural. It's also not
the worst time. I mean, my mom said my
dad came, her dad came back from the
trenches in World War I where he was
fighting and that's when she was born
and then she went through the Great
Depression. People didn't have enough
food to eat in the US and then World War
II when she was in university and a lot
of the young men she knew were all
killed. And then the 50s where we were
hiding under our desks so the Russian
nuclear bombs wouldn't get us, you know,
and then the
60s where Kennedy and Malcolm and Martin
Luther and everybody was killed and you
know the Vietnam War and the Lao and the
Cambodian war. Um, and she said, you
know, we go through this as human beings
and it's terrible,
but the beautiful thing about the four
noble truths is it's not the end of the
story.
The first noble truth is suffering.
Um,
and its causes, greed and hatred. We see
that. But there's a path to the end of
suffering. And we also carry that as
human beings. And in the course of these
90 minutes, there have been 2
billion349,732,000
acts of generosity of a mom
cooking tortillas or rice grl, you know,
or scrambled eggs for her kids, of
somebody opening the door for another
person, people stopping at the red light
so another car can go by. There's
immense humanity and there's a vitality
on the earth and yeah, even if climate
change and we screw it up and there's
all these climate refugees and a
tremendous amount of suffering, hundreds
of millions of people suffering and
maybe dying. It's not the end of the
story. And our job as bodhic sattvas, if
you take the bodhic sattva vow
um is not to turn away from the
suffering but to plant the seeds that
will make a more beautiful future to
reach out and mend the part of the
fabric of life that you can touch. And
that's what enobbles you that's what
allows the Dalai Lama to say yes they've
burned our sacred scriptures. They've
taken our monks and nuns and thrown them
in prison. They've taken our culture and
so forth. Why should I let them take my
happiness, take the dharma? Who I am is
timeless and so much bigger than that.
And so we have to help each other in
this. But it's not the end of the story.
My mother is telling me on one side and
a ja on the other. Um, and the truth is
that the reason that you're so anxious
and afraid
is because you care.
And it's much more helpful
among all things to turn into that tune
into that level of care.
Mr. Rogers, if you ever watched him as
kids, I don't know, Mr. Roger's mother
said that when there is a hurricane, you
know, or earthquake and all these
terrible things have happened and all
these people are dying, she said to Mr.
Rogers, to her son,
"Open your gaze and look for the
helpers."
There was hurricane Katrina and the
floods in Houston and people on their
roofs with their dogs and everybody
trying to figure out how do they make
themselves safe and survive. And then
the Arab boats, the Cinjun Navy from
Mississippi and Alabama and Arkansas and
all these guys in their pickup trucks
and gals with their boats coming in and
and so forth. There's there's almost
there's so much in the human heart that
wants to also do good
and we share that in this really
powerful way.
I could go on. I have another story, but
I think I've gone on enough.
>> Jack, can we That was really touching.
And And can we keep you on for five more
minutes to ask a few final quick
questions of you?
>> Damn, you guys. Greed.
You
>> go for it.
>> Go for it. Do what you got to do.
>> Jack,
>> what? Jack, you mentioned that you cried
when you disroed that one time
>> and you
>> Yeah, don't do it. Don't do it.
>> Good advice. And you haven't you haven't
yet agreed to reordain with us. So, I'm
curious two questions.
>> What is the one thing that you maybe
miss most about monastic life? And two,
what is the one thing that you miss
least
>> about monastic life?
>> I miss the simplicity. I miss being part
of a community. I miss kind of the
purity of intention. Um that you know
that your job in some way is to
live in a way that creates harmony and
brings a kind of pure heart to
everything.
Um I don't miss the hard bits and one
meal in the morning and stuff. There
there's some physical hardship that at
age 80 I mean you have to notice that
all the old babas and llamas and ajuns
they mostly started sitting on benches
after a while they weren't just sitting
on the stone floor not all of them but a
lot of you know so there's that but also
there's a kind of beautiful communion
that lay people have a kind of freedom
whether it's music and arts and
connection and things Um,
and sex.
Sorry guys, messing with you.
>> Exactly. Don't don't even think about
it. But anyway, there's there's stuff,
you know, that
>> All right. We got We got Dan Harris.
This is our lightning round. We got Dan
Harris to agree that if we got Sam
Harris to ordain temporarily with us, he
would also ordain. If we got Dan Harris
and Sam Harris to take temporary
ordination with us,
>> the Harris brothers. I'd love it.
>> Would you take temporary ordination too,
Jack? One.
>> Okay. Question. Yes, but I'd want to be
ordained as a Biku since I do know the
Vayiah and I still have my robes. You
could ordain them as summon era because
they don't know they don't know Bubkus
about the monastic life. But I would do
that.
>> That way also I could lord it over them.
>> You'd be senior. I love it. We can make
them talk you Jack.
>> Okay. One question is so your book
living Buddhist masters which became
living dharma you right profiles of
about 12 mostly monastics all terravada
mostly men
>> right
>> if you were to rewrite living Buddhist
masters today with modern Buddhist
masters who would they be you don't have
to name 12 but just who comes to mind
>> I don't know you know when I did the
book of um the Buddha is still teaching
I picked from the contemporary English
speakaking that you know Tignatan and
Suzuki Roshi and Joseph Goldstein and
Pemmer children and sort of the usual
suspects right um
I don't know um I mean first of all I'm
not in tune people where should I go
practice in Thailand I'm sorry I'm not
tuned in to what are the good
monasteries where should I go in Burma
you know you could go to mahasis but
honestly here's Here's the truth. Um
when I've visited places
um
of the great masters and I was lucky to
be Mahasi was the most celebrated
teacher in Burma. Ajun Cha certainly
became one of the most celebrated in
Thailand. After they died
they put in kind of caretaker abbotss if
you will. And I don't mean disrespect
because they're also fine people, but
they're not the kind of charismatic
amazing teachers. Because what happens
is that the great teachers when they
have charismatic disciples, those
disciples go elsewhere. They don't stay
there. They start their own game
somewhere else. And so you can go to
Mahasi's monastery or to Ajach and it's
beautiful and you get the feeling of the
lineage and what's happened there. But
it's not the same as when Ajan Sha
Mahasi was there where it was alive in
it. And you can go to some of their
disciples monasteries, the best of them,
and you start to feel, wo, this is
seriously alive.
And that's not not meant to be
disrespectful. It's just sort of how
organic things happen.
>> Two more lightning round questions.
What is the one uh teaching of the
Buddha either like a quote from a suta
or some kind of part that's resonated
with you through all these years?
It doesn't have to be a quote or just
any kind of
>> Yeah. Well, something Yeah.
Um
it's non-clinging.
It's the teaching that what you cling to
causes suffering and you don't have to
Yeah. The truth of liberation is the um
I mean in the third gen patriarch it
begins the great white and great way is
not difficult for those who have no
preferences and it doesn't mean you
don't have preferences cuz it's badly
translated who do not cling to their
preferences who don't cling
>> and I suppose the other one is um
really the teachings on love
>> and for me the bodhic satta vow the
practice of the bodhic sappa is um
really really inspiring
and we do that together.
What's the last one? Last question is,
so you pointed to and we've certainly
seen it ways that monastics or
traditional Buddhists can spiritual
bypass you know the sage on the stage
but what is something that you've seen
like in American Buddhism like what's a
something that American a way of
spiritual bypass that American Buddhists
should be wary of? Well, I I would
dispute your first sentence
>> when you say monastic spiritual bypass.
>> It has nothing to do with being a
monastic. It has to do with whether
you're willing to deal with your doodoo
or not. And there are monastics like
Ajan Sha said, come in. If you face the
suffering, it's a gateway if you don't.
I mean, he was talking about bypassing
in his first two lines when I got there.
But it's not monastics. Um there's all
kinds of spiritual traditions for lay
people out there and some part there's a
there's a place for putting aside
suffering and trauma.
>> There's a place for finding what's
peaceful and joyful and beautiful. But
if you're using your practices to not
deal with things that are still actively
ruling your life, which is what I would
say that phrase of bypassing refers to,
then it doesn't matter what kind of
dress you're wearing. Um, that's a place
where there's where you're bound in
suffering. Um, and anybody can do it.
And then people will say to me,
you know, speaking of monastics and not
and sort of one of the great things that
that also included is included in the
circle of what I talked about is all the
amazing work of John Kevitzen and making
mindfulness useful in medical settings
and in whatever. And you know, I
certainly been part of that movement
too. John is remarkable. Um, but they'll
say, "Aren't you worried about watering
down the dharma,
right? Training these 8,000 people to be
like junior beginning teachers and, you
know, putting in western psychology
things and, you know, mindfulness-based
stress reduction. What about
and part of my answer is to say if you
want to see watered down dharma,
go to Burma, go to Tibet, go to Japan.
We're Americans, you know, we know how
to um we know how to mess with anything.
>> Um but
a lot of the Buddhism in Asia is
transactional. I make an offering. I
want my kid to go to a better school. My
business has to be better. Half of the
Buddhism in Japan is is a funeral racket
basically where you have to have, you
know, first year, third year, 5 years,
seven year money monks and so forth for
somebody who died in Burma. I can't tell
you how many fortune tellers and how
many I mean we're modest in our watering
a town. Yes, we're Americans who know
how to misuse anything, but it didn't
originate with us. Okay. Um, we're just
talking about the human condition. So,
divide monastically. It's it's more the
nature of the heart. Now, I have a
concluding story for you that I want to
tell.
>> Fantastic. I was teaching
with Ani Pemachod,
one of our favorite nuns, and you know,
celebrated and I've known her since
1974.
Um, and we did a big
um evening together in this hall in San
Francisco on compassion
and couple thousand people came. It was
actually a very difficult evening cuz
the ticket machines and ticket didn't
work right and people were really
frustrated and whatever. My game was to
say this is what we practice with. It's
okay. You came here to learn dharma.
This is the place to learn patience.
Whatever. Anyway, we're sitting there.
She gave some teachings. I gave my usual
storytelling and teaching. And then we
took questions or comments and a woman
stood up
and she could hardly speak. She said the
man, the partner I live with um killed
himself a week ago and he had threatened
to do it and it was so terrible and I'm
she was just broken up and weeping and
she said, you know, I did everything and
how could we? Of course, I know as a
psychologist and a clinician from early
years that people have autonomy. If they
if they insist on doing it, they will do
it. You can't you can support them. But
anyway, so she was in the throws of that
suffering and trauma. And Pamela in a
very beautiful way kind of surrounded
her with compassion and said, "You need
to hold this suffering
and how you carry it now with a great
power of compassion and you could feel
it settle her." And then I could feel
how alone she was
in this. So I said, "How many people in
this hall have experienced the suicide
of someone very close to you? Raise your
hand or stand up."
And maybe
150
or 200 people stood up or raised their
hand. And I said, "Now I want you to
turn your gaze to this young woman." And
I asked her to keep her eyes open and
just look around.
And it turned that room into a temple.
That moment
of mercy and understanding and
connection
turned what was a, you know, Shriner's
Hall or whatever it happened to be um
into a sacred place
because we met each other and especially
those who'd gone through that great
suffering with that great heart of
compassion and everybody could feel it
>> and that's who we are in the And if we
practice rightly,
there is a phrase in the sutras that
says if people practice rightly, the
world will not be free of enlightened
beings. We could have a little quarrel
about what that enlightened being maybe
they said our hot or something like
that. Hey, you want to fight? I'm up.
The bodhicoft and the hots are in
different sides of the ring. But um it's
who we are.
Jack, I can't think of a better note to
end on. Um, we are so grateful you took
the chance to just be with us and for
being uh my dar and so like the
Dharmador for so many of us. Um, thank
you so much. That was part one of our
two-part interview series with Jack. If
you want to watch part two, uh, if it's
been published, then please find the
link in the description.