70% of Workers Feel Unprepared: How Instructure Is Rethinking Learning with Ryan Lufkin

 Why do I need to be charged to be the expert? Someone's got to check its work. It's great at doing research
 It's great at being that assistant and accomplishing tasks that can be time consuming, but it's not infallible
 We can't trust it to that level yet. Maybe someday, but we still need to be the experts. We can't offload that to the machines
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 Thank you for being here new data shows that about 70% of US workers feel unprepared for today's workforce
 That raises a bigger question is the problem education employers or how we think about skills altogether today
 I'm joined by Ryan Lufkin the VP of global strategy in structure
 He has spent years helping companies and institutions rethink how people actually become job ready
 And we're getting into what's broken and what needs to change Ryan welcome to write about now
 Awesome thanks, right? Hey Ryan and Ryan you got to get started already man. We're like brothers from another talk to me man
 Instructure what that word means we're the makers of canvas canvas learning management system
 Like this point about half of all the college students in North America and about a third of all
 K-12 students in North America use canvas on a daily basis in learning or all about instruction
 Instructures the name of the company. It's funny. You wear it. You wear a canvas shirt to Home Depot and people are like
 Oh, you give me flashbacks to college. You wear an instruction shirt. I was many people knows. I always like to explain that connection
 I did recognize that in our notes and that name. I was twitching a little bit. I'm not sure
 Well, it's funny you can tell all good their educators were at designing courses in canvas if they were like
 Oh, I love canvas or oh, I hate canvas. You're like yeah teacher probably wasn't using it right. Yeah
 Yes
 That's your point of view I guess it's probably how literate they were with technology and a lot of times
 It's how much support they had in what is a good online course or a good hybrid course look like
 I think too often especially if they learned really rapidly at the beginning of COVID our solution grew rapidly
 Because people had to move online and over the course of about two days
 You can tell the educators were given a lot of support and a lot of resources and really trained what good look like
 And then the ones that were kind of thrown into it without that support our goal really hasn't proved over the last five years
 Of that level of online learning and of course design. There's some meta talk there
 I and the meta of the fact that the teachers weren't prepared to use the software
 Appropriately and we're talking about how workers in general feel unprepared
 You talked about this pace of change that started in six years ago March of 2020 and that pace of change
 Hasn't slowed just when everybody thought oh COVID's over we can take a breath in November 30th of 2022
 Open AI launched chat GPT and we got everything got turned on its head again
 The last read from that have been just an incredibly fast-paced evolution of how do we use this technology of a chart
 And so it's the seven stages of grief going through all of that
 We're really in the acceptance phase with AI now and how are we applying it appropriately?
 Study percent of workers feel unprepared. What does that really mean?
 We've got this kind of schism between education that in many ways is still really dealing with academic integrity idea
 This idea that AI is just for cheating versus businesses that are trying to figure out how we optimize our jobs with these tools
 In the many cases don't feel like universities are preparing them for that
 You've even worse than k12 when you look at k12 and there's a kind of an anti-technology and education movement going on that ignores
 Some of the more glaring benefits of using technology that to reach people that have
 Suspility challenges and rural and frankly just maybe are missing school things like that
 We've got to get everybody on the same page and Google announced a really great program
 Trying to provide free AI education to six million educators across the United States
 We are getting ready to release some courses around AI literacy and even the detractors
 Those educators that are scared of AI or double-dominance that we're not using AI
 Honestly taking the AI literacy course
 At least understand how these tools work then you understand what they're capable of
 And then you can actually make the more informed decision about how deeply do you want to use these tools and put you in a better position
 About help your students understand how to use them ethically how to use them effectively things like that
 If we're going to learn something for the sake of learning and for teaching ourselves how to problem solve
 Are these the problems that we should be solving? Do we need to learn calculus?
 Do we need to learn things that AI can do and we'll forcivably be around unless we all go back to the old ages
 Because power goes away or something or the life I go the way
 Are we really teaching what we should be teaching in?
 Why do we still need to learn the things we learned 30 years ago?
 I will point to what was called the strawberry conundrum
 Chatsubt 3.2
 If you ask it how many ours were in the word strawberry it would tell you to
 And you'd say go back and maybe look that again and tell me how many are there and they would say that there are two
 Orders in the strawberry of course there's three hours in the strawberry and they could not figure out because essentially
 Large language models are a black box. You don't know what's going on inside there
 They could not figure out why it hung up on that and it wasn't until the next model 3.3 came out
 They fixed that that's the reason that we all need to be experts
 Chatsubt has a high
 propensity for what we would call hallucination more often it's confidently and correct
 What it's trying to do is give you what you've asked it for
 Some cases it makes things up it'll make up links sources
 It'll make up whole sets of information because it's just trying to give you what you want
 And if it doesn't find it or doesn't spend the time to find it it just kind of makes it up
 You don't know exactly why but when we are the experts we can double check that work and say
 Oh you know what that's all right
 And let's go back and fix it
 Let's not perpetuate that strawberry conundrum
 What's really scary is that next generation that takes that approach that you're talking about and says
 Well, why do I need to be charged to be the expert?
 Someone's got to check its work. It's great at doing research
 It's great at being that assistant and accomplishing tasks that can be time consuming
 But it's not infallible. You can't trust it to that level yet
 Maybe someday but we still need to be the experts. We can't offload that to the machines
 We're even things as simple as math is direct in black and white
 When I think of what you just described and I agree with it by tell people there still will be jobs
 Because of what you said and discernment and humanity that has to be ever laid on the top of these things
 There's not only just that as long with certain factual applications in the real world
 But when doing 10 plus 10 or a square plus b square plus c square
 It even at advanced levels that's fairly black and white. Are you saying that math has done wrong by JGBT?
 I think it's the reasoning behind it one of the things that's really important about math isn't just getting the answer
 It's actually having the logic and reasoning behind how do we get from here?
 There's a whole blooms taxonomy if you're in education
 You understand what blooms taxonomy is it's this skill tree
 There's a new blooms taxonomy that actually says okay
 These are the skills are going to be easily replaced by AI
 And these are the skills that aren't these are the human skills
 And they're problem solving they're creative thinking they're communication they're consensus building they're things like that
 And that's why to your point that we will always have jobs we will always have the ability to be so we need to be able to connect with other humans
 While we let AI do the more mundane tasks and in some cases yeah, it might get math wrong
 It might get very convoluted and accountant the idea of an accountant giving up control of their books or understanding the formulas
 And letting them run without being able to double check that is scary
 And not every job needs advanced math if we're marketing
 I don't use advanced math on a daily basis
 But there are occasions when it's important to have that reasoning that logic
 If math is still fairly critical learning and important to keep in the curriculum
 What are the things that should be changing then?
 I don't want to pretend that what we were doing 30 years ago
 But I do hear some of the subjects and some of the stuff and I'm like that's the same thing
 Someone with a higher pay grade smarter than me knows if that's what they need to be learned
 And I'm like that is not real life applicable
 When does K-12 become more preparatory for the real world versus the standard topics that we've always taught
 Because it was important 30, 40, 50 years ago that we did that
 That's where the tension especially in K-12 comes right now
 There's this kind of undercurrent of anti-technology going on
 But then our STEM scores are going in the toilet
 How do we address STEM if science, technology, and math
 Science, technology, and engineering math
 How do we do that if we're not going to actually leverage technology and the teaching of those things
 Meanwhile, you've got a group that's pushing that we should be teaching cursive again
 And why are we teaching cursive and knowledge school
 No one writes long form letters during the Civil War
 When they would write the pen, put in letters
 We don't do that anymore
 There's been a lot of news articles on that lately
 Who's pushing that and why?
 How does that benefit us?
 There's a really great story
 I was at California System meeting
 And we had a panel of educators
 It was a professor of product design
 And he said, okay, we used to spend the first 60% of a course designing a product
 Doing specs, doing market analysis, doing all this stuff
 The last 40% kind of analyzing the work presenting to each other things like that
 Now AI, we can do that
 All of that within the first 10% of the course
 Come up with an idea
 Have AI help us do a product design
 Have it do the research around that for us
 Now he makes his students actually reach out
 And contact experts in the market
 Set up a meeting and present to them this idea
 And get their feedback
 And I always say, if I call my daughter
 She won't answer the phone, she'll text me right back
 She's a junior college
 She does not answer the phone
 She doesn't pick up the phone
 He's pushing those students to lean back into those more human skills
 Reaching out, making connections
 Setting up a presentation
 Presenting your thing, collecting feedback
 Those things that AI can't easily do for us
 That's really the focus
 It's kind of that evolution in teaching
 We're not necessarily teaching entirely new things
 But we're doing it in more innovative ways
 That lean into those human skills
 And not just assigning 20 page papers
 That kids are going to use AI to write
 Are schools teaching the wrong things
 Or just teaching them the wrong way?
 It's the wrong way
 Really, it comes down to the assessment of mastery
 How do we actually know whether or not somebody has learned that skill
 How do we make sure that sticks in their brain
 Isn't just, I memorized these data points
 I took the quiz
 I dumped those memory points out of my brain
 And I moved on to the next thing
 How do we really teach skills
 That's the biggest challenge right now
 Is educators who are already underpaid
 And underappreciated
 And school classes that are too big
 Are being asked to evolve how they're teaching
 Fundamentally redesign their courses
 And then measure those outcomes
 In truly significant ways
 That can then be reported on
 To the Department of Labor and things of that
 That evolution, teaching online
 And with technology
 During COVID
 We need to address this the same way
 And we need to provide educators
 The resources they need
 To evolve how they're teaching
 With AI
 With preparing those students
 Because it's not going away
 And I think those educators that I can opt out
 We've had students say I want to opt out
 You're not going to be able to opt out of AI
 There's a way mode that just drove past people's houses
 They don't get to say you don't get to drive past here
 Nope, that ought to maybe cars driving on the street
 You're going to be involved with AI at some level
 And understanding it
 And embracing it
 Understanding the ethical aspects of what are really important
 Talking with Ryan Lufkin
 The VP of Global Strategy and Instructure
 Ryan, you kind of teed this up
 You're teeing all my notes up perfectly
 I really like this
 You're an excellent guest
 Skills versus degrees
 It seems like we're in a skills-based economy
 Versus a degree-based economy
 And I don't know if degrees hold the same value they used to
 You can prove me wrong
 What skills actually matter most right now
 We've talked about those human skills
 And how important they are
 I will say
 I'm still a big believer that the degree
 The associate degree
 The bachelor's degree
 The master's degree
 They are still the preferred currency
 In hiring
 And then there's a reason for that
 Because they're not just about
 The hard skills generally
 The math
 They include the soft skills
 Working with groups
 Being empathetic
 Only consensus
 Communication
 Like all those things that are incredibly important
 Those human skills that we're talking about
 They embody all of those
 A year or two ago
 You saw a lot of businesses kind of
 Pro that they were taking out
 A degree as a requirement for hiring
 And what you saw as a lot of them slowly reintroduce that
 Because it really is the best
 Parameter of whether or not a person is prepared
 To enter the modern workforce
 That said
 Because of this pace of change
 We live in a world
 That we all need to be lifelong learners
 Every single one of us
 That means go to school for 12 years
 Or 16 years or 20 years
 Then we would go to a job
 And often the same job for 30 years
 Then we would retire with our pension
 And I mean that was our parents' generation
 That doesn't exist anymore
 The average tenure at a job is about three years
 They're saying well we're gonna work until we die
 There's no pensions anymore
 It's incumbent on us to prepare ourselves
 To be upwardly mobile
 Within the job market
 By constantly training new skills
 And in most cases employers aren't owning that
 The college and university system still owns
 That upscaling and rescaling of adult learners
 And they really have done an amazing job post-COVID
 Especially of rolling out new credential programs
 Because you can actually roll out a credential program
 A certificate program
 Without all of the
 regulatory requirements for under accreditation
 That a standard college program needs
 In many cases it's the same or similar content repackaged
 In more bite-sized chunks
 So you can go and take a three or four course certificate
 But then that certificate I can post a LinkedIn
 I can post an employer and show
 Look if you look at my LinkedIn
 I've got certificate and data driven marketing
 From E. Cornell
 I did an AI regulation and compliance course
 From Oxford's ad business school
 I'm doing my masters right now
 With Arizona State University
 Because to me I enjoy learning
 It's one of those things
 But it's also that way
 That you qualify yourself for
 Being up in the mobile in a job
 That's one of the things that we've shifted towards
 And it's not necessarily breaking it down
 To the component skills
 We have it all agreed on like a skills taxonomy
 That makes sense to everyone
 And a lot of the old skills taxonomies
 Are really outdated
 They don't capture a lot of the more modern skills that we need
 Not quite there yet
 But getting those certificates
 That'll demonstrate for employers
 That I'm a learner
 I want to evolve
 And like these skills
 We're getting there
 Pretty quickly
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 I always say we got in there when I was in college
 Definitely learning soft skills
 I would dare say make this statement Ryan
 I have made more money per GPA than anyone
 That I went to school with
 I had the lowest I graduated 2.0.1
 I was one point away from not graduating
 On a calculus test
 Mainly because I never went to class
 I started with the highest grade I get was in 90
 Because I deducted 10 points
 So I had to essentially make A's on everything
 Because just to pass the class essentially
 Because I was bored
 I'm an entrepreneur
 That's the thing
 Partly ADD
 I know I'm hired different
 But it taught me absolutely nothing
 Now here's what I learned
 You nailed it to soft skills
 People come into consensus
 Absolutely probably we was worth the money just for that
 However I might could have learned that
 And gotten further towards where I want to go
 Doing something different if different ahead existed
 What's cool now yeah to your point
 There are more educational opportunities
 More paths to find yourself into a well-paying job
 Than there ever have been in the history of the world
 And the biggest challenge is finding out
 What do you want to do
 And then finding through all the noise
 What's the best path to get to the other
 And it's not always a two or four-year degree
 But I was the same way I'll be honest
 A diagnosed ADHD
 Miss class a lot
 On academic probation at one point
 What you learn is
 All of a sudden you're like
 It clicks and you're like
 Oh if I go to class
 If the teacher knows my name
 If I do the basic studying
 I will graduate
 And those are the things
 It's those social skills
 College is almost about as much as learning what you need to do
 To be successful
 There's a lot of kind of noise around
 Employees not being prepared for a little job
 They don't want to come to the office
 They don't want to show up on time
 They don't want to spend the time there
 What college does is train you that you need to be
 You need to be here from this time to this time
 You need to make connections with the people
 That your bosses, your educator, and your peers
 And those are what make you successful
 That model applies in the workspace
 In ways that we're really kind of just starting
 To really appreciate
 It was we do the debate between
 Remote work and in-person work
 How do we make sure we do that
 One of the challenges I faced too
 Is I had a job working for an antigency
 When I was a senior in college
 And I was like
 Why do I need to
 I've already accomplished my goal
 Which is getting hired
 Why do I need to finish
 And that was it odds for me
 But my first job was working for
 Cokes at agency
 In the Western United States
 Writing 22nd
 Customized radio bumpers
 For Leadville, Colorado
 And Boise, Idaho
 And St. George, Utah
 Things like that
 There were four interns
 And that's what we did
 All of those can be done by AI
 By one person now
 Entry level job
 That really got my foot in the door
 And got me hired by the agency full time
 And was the start of my career
 It's now gone
 What are schools doing
 To provide more experiential learning
 To better prepare students
 To make that leap
 And then what are businesses doing
 To maintain those entry level positions
 That's one of the biggest challenges
 Right now that people need to be talking more about
 Yeah, great points
 I do want to talk about Canvas a little bit
 Workers falling behind
 Because of tech
 Or because of how we train them
 And it seems like Canvas is helping close that gap
 The goal really is to provide this framework
 For students to understand
 How they know how to get learning
 We've added some AI features
 And things like translation
 And discussion summaries
 That save educators time
 And help keep students on track
 But the bigger aspect is
 We provide this open architecture
 We work with Google and Gemini
 And Microsoft and Copilot
 And Cloud and Anthropic
 The big players
 For schools they want that choice
 What do we plug in
 What would make available
 Based off of the contracts we have
 And the organization that we want
 Our goal really has been
 To be the framework that supports
 All that innovation
 Make sure that they meet
 The unique requirements of education
 Accessibility, privacy, security
 Those are non-starters for education
 We are governed by very strict laws around
 Student data privacy and accessibility
 And so how do we make sure that these tools support that
 We support K12, higher ed
 And more increasingly
 The government and corporate space as well
 People graduate and say
 I really like using Canvas
 Why don't I have something like that here in my job
 We've moved to support that as well
 That lifelong learning approach is incredibly important
 And we want to make sure we're there to support
 Institutions as they look at that
 I try to be reflective
 Outside of my own curiosity
 And skill set
 Or whatever I'm interested into
 And then sometimes I step back
 Called empathy, college
 Just understanding other sides of it
 But it's a lot to digest
 It is intimidating
 I've got clawed and chat GPT
 For the best answers
 I kind of like that answer better than this one
 Just like when prognosticating my age
 How long I live
 I do think it is overwhelming
 Because I'm very good with change and adapting
 But I go damn
 This is a lot to take on
 To understand how to apply it
 There's this constant stream of new innovations
 And new things coming out
 Bores laws that acceleration of technology
 Innovation
 Bores laws out the window with AI
 It's so rapid it's insane
 There's announcements like
 Claw
 Which is an open source large language model
 There was a person that said okay
 I go out and make me a reservation for dinner
 And it went out
 And it tried to access the website
 Website wasn't working
 So it gave itself a voice
 And it called the restaurant
 And made the reservation
 And that freaked everyone out aggressively
 Because it accomplished the task
 That it was given
 And it did so by going outside
 The bounds of what the person asking
 To do the task
 Thought it was possible
 We all want jives
 We all want the virtual assistant
 That we've been promised forever
 That you click a button and say
 Oh make me a reservation
 Go do that
 But be a flight to cancun
 We're going to go to a hotel on a restaurant
 And settle that up
 And then
 Let's go
 We all want that level of ease
 But with that comes risk
 And that's where we're in this kind of phase right now
 Of how much do we trust these tools
 To be autonomous
 And how much do we really need to
 To continue the oversight
 But it's a lot
 It can be very, very overwhelming
 You almost have to shrink your bubble
 Into the world that you control
 And that you have aspect
 And kind of ignore a lot of the other noise
 How do you think
 Employers should think
 differently
 About training and onboarding
 In this day and age
 A really good friend Troy
 Who was in a car accident
 And suffered a traumatic brain injury
 And was out of work for about a year
 And when he was ready to go back
 He would do these interviews
 And they'd say, well, do you know AI
 And he would say
 What do you want me to know about AI
 And they'd say, well, do you know AI
 And what came clear very quickly
 Was that they didn't actually know what they wanted
 They wanted someone with skills
 In using AI and adapting these tools
 To come in and help them
 Deliver that kind of innovation
 He reached out to me and made a conversation
 I sent him some courses that he could take
 And he upskilled quickly
 And then got a job pretty rapidly from that
 But we're in this position where
 A lot of colleges and universities
 Aren't necessarily taking ownership
 Of teaching AI literacy
 And employers
 Aren't necessarily taking ownership
 They want these graduates to come out
 With these skills to help them
 We need both sides to take ownership
 Of training students on AI literacy
 And how to use these tools
 Effectively and ethically
 Across the board
 The other aspect is
 There's this old advantage
 That I've heard from a lot of employers
 That are like, well, what if we train
 Our employees and they leave
 The counterpoint is
 What if you don't train them and they stay
 We need employers to really own
 The upskilling and recently of their employees
 To make their workforce better
 And not hide behind the fear
 That those skill employees
 Will then take that training and go somewhere else
 Yeah, that's very flawed
 We've seen both sides of it
 We've come up in this innovation realm
 But we're also part of the analog world
 By the way, a lot of old employers
 People thought
 Very scarcity driven
 That scarcity mentality, I think, is really important
 To acknowledge
 And I think what you're seeing is
 As the average age
 As we cycle through the older leadership
 We're starting to get that more innovative leadership
 And a lot of industries
 That previously were very focused on
 Coming back in the office
 Let's not use technology
 We're being forced to really adapt
 To the modern world
 In a way, if you want to keep a good employee
 You're going to have
 Flexblowers
 You're going to have
 Good technology support
 There's these new requirements for students
 They're just very different
 Than when we came out of college
 Or entered workforce
 These tools
 Have an empowerment component
 How much they unlock
 I came up in the ad agency business too, Ryan
 I worked 20 years plus
 15 work for other agencies
 There's no better silo world
 Than the ad agency business
 I made this kind better
 But I'm 10 years removed from it
 Ryan, you're going to get this
 Much like I was out of fish out of water in college
 I was a creative strategic
 Account guy
 An ad agency
 I was a good writer
 I think in headlines
 I'm a big idea guy
 But I'm actually pretty organized
 Pretty good account guy
 And I understood strategy
 It serves me well
 Because I was in a very
 Entrepreneurial agency
 That actually took advantage of my skills
 And most agencies
 A fish out of water
 I bring this up through my own context
 Because, Ryan, you got that
 Now with AI
 Used to be
 Okay, how can we get the most out of this person
 At the cheapest possible
 Give them 7 hats
 And it was just a financially driven
 But now with AI
 And the abilities
 People can sit in a lot of different boxes
 Because AI unlocks a lot of abilities
 And skills
 Agentic or otherwise
 That allows them to do those things
 That is an incredible example
 I'm going to steal that for later
 Because I love that example
 Of that silent organization
 I remember having an idea
 Because I was on the account management side
 Like creative idea
 I'm like, what if we do this
 And I was told, stop
 Shut up
 Not your department
 Go talk to the customer
 I had been a commercial designer
 I had the right to be creative
 And it was so funny that
 That got shut down
 Even the stages within the creative field
 Somebody would come up with the writers
 Came up with headlines
 The designers came up with
 Maybe storyboards
 To pitch the idea
 Now you can have the idea
 You can actually work with AI
 To do the writing
 And improve the writing
 You can actually have AI create
 The storyboards for you
 To your point exactly
 Now imagine educators
 Educators who are
 Not necessarily really trained
 On how to be an educator
 They're really subject
 Better experts in their field
 I'm a history professor
 I know history like the back of my hand
 But suddenly
 I have the ability to use these tools
 To create short videos
 To create imagery
 To make my writing less dry
 Things like that
 If we lean into that
 If we support that
 Holy cow
 The potentials are just unlocked
 For employees to be
 So much more productive
 In ways that we know
 But we've got to break down that
 Frame that box
 Those boxes that we put people in
 Love that analogy
 That was a good one
 That's a big opportunity
 Ryan as we close out here
 I got a little rapid fire for you
 If you don't mind
 Three things
 Most overrated skill
 Coding
 Unfortunately
 Most underrated skill
 Good clear communication
 Is incredible
 One mindset shift people need
 I really like what you just call that
 Around the boxing of organizations
 And this idea that everybody
 Needs to stay in their box
 And not try to cross over
 Because they get many great ideas
 Have never filmed the light of day
 Because somebody was sitting in their wrong box
 Really is kind of got me thinking now
 I think that's just a great point
 Yeah, if we can get people thinking
 The leaders going
 How do we use AI
 To enable our people
 To step outside of their boxes
 Because they can
 What do we unlock
 It's good leaders
 Being willing to
 Be more flexible
 Being willing to really
 Call out those employees
 That are using these tools
 The right way
 And are using them effectively
 Again, modeling what good looks like
 Show people what's possible
 And then encourage everybody
 Else to kind of follow
 That freeing of their minds
 AI creates these laboratories
 Of opportunity
 And if you enable that
 And you empower that
 You're getting
 It's kind of like
 In science and technology
 How many more tests can they do
 Improve the model
 That could change the world
 Or at least change the organization
 We're just at the point
 Where we're building the trust
 And we're starting to use these tools
 In really creative ways
 But they're brand new
 And we don't even know
 Exactly what they're all capable of
 If we suspend our fear a little bit
 And if we lean into using them
 And learning them
 I think there's a lot of
 Opportunity that they
 They uncover
 Ryan, working everybody
 Keep up with what you're
 Up to
 Instructure canvass etc
 I'm on linkedin
 Instructure.com
 Is our website
 We blog frequently
 And then
 My boss, Melissa Lowell
 Who's their chief academic officer
 She and I do a podcast
 Called
 Educast 3000
 You've got a huge number
 More episodes
 I think we have about 41 episodes
 You have hundreds
 We talk to some of the smartest people
 Education and really pick their brains
 To make us smarter
 It's great
 Really appreciate you Ryan
 For coming on
 Great conversation
 I really enjoyed it
 Hey guys, you're going to find us
 Ryan is right.com
 You'll find
 Show notes from today
 Highlight clips
 The full link episodes
 Go check us out on YouTube
 Hit that subscribe button
 We appreciate it
 You got to see this army green
 I'm rocking
 Ryan's rocking it too
 We appreciate you
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 With Ryan Alford
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