Barry Silverman - Ultrafabrics, Vice President of Marketing/Branding

 values have become a driver of consumer behavior.
 People are now making decisions based on does that company share my values.
 The challenge is to I think really decide what you stand for, what you truly believe in,
 and then how you leverage that given the fact that so many people seem to care about that these days.
 Ultimately, cancel culture is something that we will have to learn to live with, right?
 Brands and people will need to understand and manage their way through it.
 You're listening to the Radcast. If it's radical, we cover it.
 Here's your host, Ryan Alfred.
 Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast.
 I'm Ryan Alfred, your host.
 Today we have a unique perspective, my friends.
 We're getting a little different today. I'll say one on two levels,
 one I have one of my favorite clients. I have to say that on and two, someone I highly
 respect and talking about a topic that might be actually unique in the perspective that a
 lot of people are talking about it on their podcast, but you're hearing and reading a lot about
 the news. I'm excited to get after it. Barry Silverman, welcome to the show.
 Thanks, Ryan.
 Glad to have you. Barry is the VP of marketing and branding at ultra fabrics.
 The world's best faux leather. I'm going to call it faux even though everybody thinks that's
 funny, but polyurethane leather. I don't want to get, we're going to go down that avenue, but
 this is amazing. Talking McLaren, we're talking certain things. I can't even name. It's so exciting,
 but Barry, hey, look, I'm actually pumping it up. Ultra fabrics.
 Thank you. Thank you. We are in a lot of different brands. We work with some of the bigger,
 more exciting design-forward brands in the world. I know. We're honored to be an agency
 partner and appreciate your business, but more than that, I appreciate your perspective and your
 opinion. Let's start down that path, Barry. Let's talk a little bit about your background,
 and then we'll build towards today's topic, which is a hot button, certainly in the business world.
 Sure. My background, I'd say, you could summarize really in that it is about brands,
 right, or branding. When I was younger earlier in my career, I fell in love with what brands
 could be, the strategy behind it, the beauty, the artist's quality of brands, and their impact
 on culture. I've had a couple of stints at two major global brand consulting firms, the first
 being future brand, the second being my last firm, which is Interbrand. I've had a few stints
 on the client side as well, but all of my work and my career really has focused on brands, right,
 now is the VP of marketing and branding for a major global textile company that is very much
 about our brand and designs. I've built a career in that. I've also taught at the university level,
 the graduate level for almost 20 years now. I taught in branding and integration, branding and
 integrated communication programs. I've taught at NYU, I've taught at Fairly Dickinson University,
 New Jersey, San Francisco State University of San Francisco, and the City College of New York.
 Currently, I'm also going for my PhD and doing my dissertation work now on an idea about brand,
 and then maybe someday becoming a full-time academic, we'll see, but that's been the summary
 of my career. I love it, Barry. I didn't even know the academia, knew the brand side,
 knew the corporate side, did not know the PhD. I admire all the work. I know how hard you're
 working at ultra fabrics, and to keep your hands and all those other things is a lot. What is
 that balance like? We'll get towards the topic, but that's joking a lot of balls, isn't it?
 It is hard. I've been shipping away for almost seven years now, and I'm finally at my dissertation
 point, so I find time, nights, weekends, when I can. It's all writing and research at this point,
 so it is hard. It is hard. Some days, I think I'm never going to get through it, but eventually,
 I'll go there. It is interesting because I have friends in the academia world that teach in marketing
 and branding like at Clemson in a few other places, and it's interesting the perspective of the
 academia side versus the real world side of branding and marketing like every day. I feel like
 some academia has gotten better at merging those two, probably helps having a professor like
 yourself or teacher that's been in it and has one leg in one of each. Have you noticed
 that difference between the textbook and the real world?
 Yeah, but at the graduate level, especially, we try to merge the two. At the graduate level,
 it's all about case studies, it's all about current activity, modern day examples, so I think,
 depending on the school, but most, I think, merge those two pretty well. The undergraduate level
 tends to be a little bit more about theory, the fundamentals, the basics. You're using a textbook,
 and then once you have that foundation, as I said, the more advanced you get, the closer those two
 things come. Yep. I think I never got my masters, and maybe I got my PhD in the real world.
 I cut my teeth as a junior account executive at an agency, but I do respect and watch how hard my
 wife has her master's in every other degree you can in teaching and everything. I respect the
 hell out of people that have done and done it even after the fact on top of a day job, so to speak,
 but very I do want to transition. We did tee up today's topic, which has been heavy in the news
 and elsewhere as companies start to have to play the role of really wearing their belief systems
 on their sleeves or not, but more or are in the delicate balance. I know you and I talked about,
 you know, a recent article about sales force and, you know, them and their employees in Texas,
 and I just want to tee up, you know, your thoughts and maybe just start with, you know, your
 perspective as it's kind of started to come across your screen. Yeah, so I think what's been
 happening and why this is important and why this is really fascinating is that in the last,
 say, five years because of the political climate in this country, politics has changed very much so,
 in that it's moved from not just a political point of view, but to be representative of values,
 okay, what you value, what's important to you. So it's no longer a discussion of just about politics.
 It's what you believe in, right? And that is some of the reason of the grape divide that exists
 and continues to widen within our culture today. And so what's been happening too with companies with
 brands is that they've always had values, right? You know, values, mission statement, things like that
 have been part of corporate culture for years, but they've existed more so as a process of something
 we sort of had to do. And what transition has happened there now is that values have become a
 driver of consumer behavior, right? So people are now making decisions based on, does that company
 share my values, right? Do I feel comfortable supporting a company such as this? So you've got
 these two seismic shifts, right, that has happened, both the idea that our contemporary world is very
 much about values and then values becoming an important consumer driver. So brands now being in a
 position to say, you know, should we A, be quiet, not say anything, not express a belief system,
 B, should we take a side, right? And if so, how far should we dig into that, right? How authentic can we
 really be? And then C, what side should that be? You know, where am I going to land? And these are
 all very important questions. I think brands are now asking themselves an example that we spoke about
 with Salesforce.com, you know, they clearly looked at their audience, determined what they believe
 their audience values, and then made a very big statement about what they're doing in Texas by
 basically saying that they will pay to relocate employees, locate in in Texas if they believe that
 the state of Texas no longer aligns with that employee's values, considering some of the recent
 laws that have been passed there lately. It's fascinating. And that was a perfect summary of
 kind of what's been going on. And my biggest question, though, is to your point, if Salesforce is,
 I think in the top five employers in the US, if not top 10, I mean, they're gigantic employer
 in the US. And you have to believe and know that some percentage of their employee force is,
 you know, hard, true, right leaning Christians. And then, if it's not 50, 50, I would guess it's
 60, 41, where are the other? And the other is on the other side, probably maybe Democratic left
 leaning, maybe believe in women's rights before everything else or, you know, so how do companies
 like that make that divide and not risk offending a large percentage of their base?
 Sure. Well, I think what Salesforce did was pretty smart because they didn't necessarily
 firmly take a position. They said, we're going to be about our employees. And if you now feel
 uncomfortable in a state that's doing this, we'll help you move out of that state. And we're
 barely saying, you know, we are, you know, against abortion or things like that. For some brands,
 however, it gets a little trickier where they very much put a stake in the ground. And it is easier
 for some brands than others, right? So you take a brand like Patagonia, for example, right?
 So Patagonia for a long time was very much about the environment, was about the outdoors, right?
 So the issue of climate change was a very easy cause for them to champion, right? And then they
 had some choices to make. And they went pretty far in making almost political statements because
 they believe that their audience were going to support them. And they have. And every time
 they've come out firmly against an administration's position regarding climate change,
 they've watched sales blips, they've watched interest, they've seen engagement go up. So
 they have a clear position. So it was pretty clear for them. It gets a little trickier when you have,
 you know, a Starbucks as an example that closed down if you remember all their stores because
 they had a racial incident in one of their stores. And they had to make a statement. They retrained
 employees about cultural sensitivity and all that. And then you have a Nike, right, who basically
 decides to put Colin Kaepernick's face. And as the forefront of their brand, a very strong statement,
 you know, again, amidst the Black Lives Matter movement, but Nike being the savvy marketer that
 they are realized that their audience would very much appreciate this statement. And yes,
 they may lose some people as a result of taking a firm political stance and having that point of
 view. But to them, it supported the values that their brands stand for, what they believe in,
 and their purpose as an organization. Do you think
 accidentally put a ton of really valuable examples there, Barry? The thing that hits me is like
 the news cycle so short now, you know. And I'm wondering, are we really in an age of brands
 taking a position or are these momentary? They know that they might take two steps back
 to take five forward. Are they momentary blips? Like Colin Kaepernick, for example, in Nike,
 you know, like I know a ton of people that that offended that said they'd never buy Nike again.
 But just like everything else, the news cycle is fleeting. And the next thing I know they have a
 Tiger Woods polo on or whatever, you know, from golf. So it's like, do brands, are they really
 taking a firm for ever stance? Or are they feeding into the narrative of the moment in the news cycle?
 Well, I think that there's blips and activity and energy around it. But I think for the most part,
 there is a longer lasting impact. So I'll give you a couple of other examples. Dick Sporting goods
 decided that they are no longer going to sell assault rifles and no longer sell guns to
 anyone under the age of 21, right? It was a big, big decision for a retailer. Now guns represent
 about 10% of their sales, which is not small. But they decided that because of gun violence in this
 country, they had a responsibility, right? So it's another interesting question. How far does a
 brand's responsibility go, right? So in essence, is culture shaping brands or is branch shaping culture?
 Or is it a combination of the both, right? Now what happened with Dick Sporting goods is the NRA
 took a big stance, right? Against Dick's came out against them, a big, big PR campaign condemning
 the company and the brand. And for the last year or so, you know, analysts have been watching their
 stock, which has been steady, maybe declining a little bit, I think. I'm not exactly sure,
 but sales have been rising. So they're trying to understand the business impact of that position,
 which yes, there was a blip of activity, but I think it's a longer term commitment that they're
 making to take a position and stay there and then realize the impact. Yeah. Yeah. Good points. I
 think I still come back to this notion of, you know, marketing and branding, as you know,
 has, it has these cycles of different things. And are we in a period of, this is, is this
 important forever? Because, you know, Gensers and that generation is being raised to care about
 these things? Or are we in a, is this just a period of, because I feel like if we did an
 exploratory, I don't, I don't know, you, you, you, you being an academia and branding longer than
 me would probably be able to answer this. But like, were there periods in the 80s and early,
 like 90s and 70s where marketing went through this same thing. And then it kind of went for
 all circle went, you know, instead of belief based, it was product based and brand based. Like,
 are we in a cycle that's going to change? Are we, is this sticking?
 That's hard to know, because I'm not a futurist. But what I told you is that when I mentioned earlier,
 that younger consumers especially are making choices on brands because of what those brands value.
 And, you know, I think even our own company, like for example, are launching a new mission and
 values. And we're doing it very purposely, especially to employees. And we're doing it in a way
 that it's meaningful to us. Ideally, we'll be meaningful to our customers. And even our partners
 such as yourself, because we want the world to understand both what we stand for, what we believe in
 and our purpose. Right. So in our case, for example, you would refer to earlier faux leather,
 you know, sometimes we refer to it as vegan leather. But, you know, look, I could run off tons of
 statistics around how leather, the farming forth and manufacturing, the industrial process,
 is contributing to a terrible environmental situation. Right. And our role in the world we feel
 is to help limit that, you know, to a large degree. It's an animal free product, which a lot of
 people believe in now and are moving towards it. And so we're proud of that. We believe that our
 values enable that to a large degree. And so we want people to understand that we want that to come
 across. So because consumers, I think, are looking at that more closely, you know, the challenge
 really is authenticity. Right. So I don't know if you remember this, but Pepsi did an ad during
 that I think the black lives matter movement when it was at its height. And they used one of the
 Kardashians, I think, or Kylie Jenner, or someone like, he was Chloe, Chloe Kardashian, I think.
 That's it. I remember exactly what you're talking about.
 Handing a Pepsi to a police officer. And they took so much heat for that because it was so unauthentic,
 right. It was such an obvious attempt at a brand, you know, trying to take a position or showing
 what they stand for. But what they were clearly doing was just jumping on the coattails of a current
 movement instead of saying, this is embedded in our values. This is who we are as a company. This
 is what our senior executives believe in, right. And so they got called out on that. And I think
 had to come out and apologize. They pulled the ad very quickly. So, you know, the challenge is to
 I think really decide what you stand for, what you truly believe in. And then how you leverage that
 given the fact that so many people seem to care about that these days. Yeah. And that's really
 crucial. I think you nailed it on the authenticity. I think that's going to be the real guiding judge
 of who does this well. It does. I think Pepsi was a great example. I think there's been a few others.
 But I think that is the danger zone here because there's going to be, you know, the C-suite's going
 to have, you know, a knee-jerk reaction, I think, to certain things. And it's going to be important
 for marketers and braining people to kind of keep a good guidepost for really what the company
 does stand for and what they truly have, let's say, money in the bank built up, Kache built up for
 as far as that believes to something. Because I think you're going to see a lot of players try to
 go down this space, but keeping it authentic will be the challenge. Yeah. And look, if you were a
 consumer brand and your target is a fairly, you know, under 30 audience, I don't see how you can
 ignore this. Yeah. I really will. I think that it's come to the point where consumers have already
 told us, right? There's plenty of research on the fact that they make choices based on a company
 sharing their values. They will move away from brands that they feel are acting irresponsibly,
 right? Yeah. They will research these things. They will find out who is doing what what causes your
 supporting, you know, they mean that this is becoming a critical element of the marketing process,
 I think, especially for some brands in certain categories. And as I mentioned earlier, the lesson
 for all brands in my mind is that your purpose, your values can always be important and now so more
 than ever as a vehicle for communicating your message. What do you think the balance is? We talked
 about it a little bit, Barry. And, you know, I agree, we, we counsel a lot of brands on that exact
 point you just said. And what's the balance between how do they do this without, you know, I think
 Salesforce to your point didn't necessarily put their eggs in one basket together. They just gave
 an option to one side. I just wonder how we avoid. It's just driving me crazy now how you can,
 if you have like, you can't dislike Biden and not like Trump, you know what I mean? Like these,
 there's like, there's just black and white when really we live in a gray world. And I'm just
 worried that we, how we find the balance of, of debate and not hate, you know?
 Yeah, you know, and that's going to be a really hard thing to do. I'll give you another example. So
 Delta Airlines decided not to include NRA members in a certain discount that they had. Again,
 they put a stake in the ground and the state legislature of Georgia were located because they're
 an Atlanta based company came out very strongly against Delta condemning the brand telling people
 not to use them, claiming that, you know, the way that they're stomping on the Second Amendment
 is clearly not something that we will ever support. And we will impact the tax, the amount of
 tax that they pay, right? I mean, they really had legislatures screaming about this because they
 felt that their constituency was one that was going to take offense to this. So Delta had a very
 difficult position, but they took a position. They decided this is who we are as a brand,
 and this is, you know, who we want to be. So to your point, unfortunately, you know, it seems
 as the sides have been drawn, right? Whether those sides come together in sort of this common area,
 I'm not sure. I know it's difficult, right? I mean, if you're a brand like Delta, you have such a
 wide audience. You certainly want everyone to fly your airline. What do you do? But I do think that,
 you know, there is a different philosophy in corporate enterprise these days or for younger companies
 coming of age, who believe that, you know, our business is not just about a profit that although
 we have an obligation to our shareholders and an obligation to make money, you know, there is
 something called corporate empathy and we can certainly engage in that and be a very successful brand.
 Yeah. And, you know, this is down a different path, Barry, but you're so damn smart. I want your
 opinion on it. The, you know, it's the notion of cancel culture. You know, that's, it's kind of
 semi-related here. We're kind of talking a little bit in the same camps, but I'm wondering like,
 you know, it's just such a, I fear from my own children as a father of four boys that
 don't get me wrong. There are certain mistakes that you make that you can, that you maybe you
 don't deserve to come back from, but it's like we live in this culture where, you know, we're all
 flawed as human beings. We all make mistakes. And, you know, people are making or saying one bad
 thing that may not be representative of their full body of work. And then they're, they're done for,
 you know, and in the same vein of, of just, you know, whose judge jury and executioner these days,
 I don't know. And, you know, I'm building towards a question, but I'm really wondering you're,
 your perspective, because I feel like it, it, it, it flies kind of in the same airspace.
 Yeah, and it very much does. And I guess this is the thing that brands need to navigate a little
 bit, right? It's tricky. And, and there is a cancel culture out there. And that's permeated by
 the mediums that people have access to, right? I mean, work had spread, you know, in, in 20 seconds
 and reach millions of people, right? All of a sudden, you know, the damage control is needed for
 something. I think that, you know, ultimately, cancel culture is something that we will have to
 learn to live with, right? Brands and people will need to understand and manage their way through it.
 To me, personally, however, the, the lesson is to what we said earlier about authenticity, right?
 I mean, I, I think the mistake that most people make is not truly being authentic about their
 mistake or what they might have said. I think people are generally forgiving. I think audiences,
 you know, will forgive if they believe that person. Yeah. You know, the problem is is that, you know,
 some, you know, jobs like politician have lost a lot of credibility. So, you know, they,
 I'm really sorry, but are, are they going to be believed most likely have to work 10 times harder
 than your average Joe? And they've done that to themselves, right? I mean, that's just that,
 that, that industry. So celebrities have a problem too, because they're not always seen as authentic,
 right? So they make a mistake. They say the wrong thing. It's very difficult for them to,
 to come back, but that does happen. And I've seen it happen.
 What you've been like, I guess even starting with where you're at now, I mean,
 do you think employees and even yourself in your own experience, you've worked in several places
 in academia, clients at Brandside? Have you felt safe and comfortable along the way as they
 improved in your ability to maybe share your belief system? That's a good question.
 You know, it's interesting because I'll be very honest about something that happened to me recently,
 because of this great divide in our country that exists now, the, the, the aptitude to judge
 quickly is, is too great, right? Like when I'm people from other states now, right? Immediately,
 I have an impression of them. I don't even know these people like from another state, but I might
 think, and I think they have an impression of me, like I come from New York and I imagine that when
 people hear that, there's an impression of what I'm like, what I believe in, who I am. And,
 you know, the real unfortunate thing is that we're making such snap judgments and not truly giving
 people the time to express themselves or even get to know somebody, you know, and I'm guilty of
 that as well. And I really want to get better at, you know, just being able to judge people as
 individuals because we're so, you know, I think tied to geography now and culture and how that
 culture is formed. Yeah. Good points. I do want to talk is, you know, we close out a bit here.
 I want to talk a little bit more about ultra fabrics. We're really proud to work with them.
 And a lot of things are doing. They have a police system, some of ours. I believe in sustainability.
 And, you know, it blows my mind, you know, with the fact that it's taken this long for a product,
 this quality. And it's been certainly happening. And certainly ultra fabrics has had respect for a
 long time. But more of the industry, you know, especially when you think of automotive and other
 things, you know, leather being this high standard of luxury. But the reality of just the technology
 and innovation that ultra fabrics brings to the market, it's really exciting to work on and
 exciting. I know for you in kind of telling these stories every day, right?
 Yeah, you know, it's interesting. My favorite story about our company is quite simply when I
 spoke to our owner about what she set out to do, you know, she was one of the founders of
 creating this company. What was it about? And she said that we wanted to make textile sexy.
 Now with it. And in those simple words, I knew exactly what she meant. And I realized that
 ultra fabrics is an idea as much as it is a business, right? And in our category, there is
 not a lot of sexiness, you know, so we have this amazing opportunity to do really interesting design
 forward things. That's what's most exciting for me, you know, and that there aren't a lot of brands
 that I think are pushing the envelope like we are in our category and trying to be artistic and
 everything we do. And now we have the permission to do that because ultimately she wanted to make
 textile sexy. And I'm helping her do that. Yeah, you most certainly are. And it's the six having
 textile sexy. You look greenville, South Carolina, South Carolina, like textile capitals of the world.
 And let me tell you it had no, it's not been sexy, you know, you know, six years in New York,
 I've heard all the hats, but it's not always been sexy, but ultra fabrics is certainly that.
 Can you talk about, I know we've got some exciting things planned, we've got some upcoming events
 and all that. We're not going to get into everything. But can you talk about any of the partnerships,
 you know, maybe that you're most proud of that you can speak to for ultra fabrics?
 For our customer standpoint, yeah, just your customers and the partnerships. I mean,
 I mentioned McLaren, which is sexy, but yeah. So in the automotive world, we work with Jaguar
 Land Rover. We're very proud to be a part of that brand. We are talking to some of the more
 progressive automotive companies in the world on the furniture side. We work with Herman Miller.
 We work with Steelcase. They're very big customers of ours. And you know, they are defining
 the design of space, you know, in the future brands like that are truly defining that for
 the future. So we're excited to be part of brands like Steelcase, like Herman Miller,
 like Andrea World in the furniture business as well. Winnebago, you know, the great brands that are
 RVs. There was another one I can't think it's at the top of my tongue, but we're in most of the
 major RV brands, you know, that are at the higher level. You know, we are also part of Jet Blue
 Airlines, who use our product. We are part of, let's see, there's a couple other major airlines.
 I'm trying to think who I can mention and who I can. I put you on the spot with this one. So,
 you know, the only reason why I don't say all of them is sometimes they kind of white label us,
 you know, but many times they very much talk about our partnership. One of the interesting brands
 we're working with now that we're very proud of this Fitbit. And Fitbit actually has put us on
 many of their watches. They are sold out now. I just learned this morning of the watch that they
 use our fabric for their brand for their, I'm sorry, their wristband. They're sold out of that
 product and they even talk about us on the back of the label. So we're very proud of the Fitbit
 partnership. It's crazy. I mean, that's what I wanted you to go there because in scout boats and
 and I mean, we could go on and on and on. People to realize the scope and scale of where
 ultra fabrics is making an impact with the number of partners for every day in everyone's
 lives that they may not know. And I wanted all our listeners to kind of hear that.
 Barry, any closing thoughts there and working here by keep up with all things you and ultra fabrics
 anything else? Well, again, we just launched our new website of course, www.ultrafabricsink.com
 and we love people to come and see us there. In terms of this topic, again, I think it's really
 fascinating about what brands are doing, the choices they have to make. As I said, we're making
 our own choices in terms of telling the world about what we believe and what we value and we think
 we value good things that are helping the planet and again, very proud to be doing work for a brand
 that is actually contributing to the world and the betterment of it. But I think for brands,
 ultimately the lesson is, it's time you take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself this
 question, who am I? What do I want to represent? How can I connect more with my customers,
 my users, the people in my community by sharing values with them and what are those values?
 And that's the question we all have to ask ourselves. All great points and ultra fabrics is lucky
 to have you and we're lucky to be able to work with you. I really appreciate you, Barry.
 Thank you so much, Ryan. I appreciate it. Hey guys, lots of great insights today. You can search
 for all of that content if you go to theradcast.com, search for Barry, search for ultra fabrics,
 all the content, all the highlights clips from today's episode will be there. You
 know where to find me. I'm verified on the platforms. TikTok, Instagram, wherever else,
 Facebook, LinkedIn. You can find me at Ryanofford. We'll see you next time on theradcast.